Can a 1984 Euro be Supercharged?
02-20-2007, 10:43 AM
#46
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I need to get Kevin on the thread to answer your questions about his methanol setup. It is not part of my kit, nor did I install it or tune it. So, I'm not the right guy to answer questions about it.
You can see in the two charts that his HP and Torque actually went down after he turned on the snow methanol spray. But what it did do is level out the air/fuel line nicely, making it safer for the 10.4:1 CR Euro 16v engine.
Kevin is going back to the dyno after he gets his injectors all cleaned and rebuilt - and he says they were dripping, not spraying, when he tested them after the dyno run. I think that should level out the air/fuel ratio too without Methanol.
You can see in the two charts that his HP and Torque actually went down after he turned on the snow methanol spray. But what it did do is level out the air/fuel line nicely, making it safer for the 10.4:1 CR Euro 16v engine.
Kevin is going back to the dyno after he gets his injectors all cleaned and rebuilt - and he says they were dripping, not spraying, when he tested them after the dyno run. I think that should level out the air/fuel ratio too without Methanol.
02-20-2007, 10:43 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
Then why did you ask?
Bull**** - plenty of boosted cars run a 50/50 mix of meth / water as a liquid intercooler. If you already knew this you wouldn't be questioning these numbers!!!!
If you think running a blower with a 50/50 mix of meth / water is the same as running NOS, you have a LOT to learn.
Well, you have yet to explain why your 928 is seeing a 25% + drivetrain loss. So I will cast a doubt on any numbers you ever post.
All the best
Have fun at 200mph
Bull**** - plenty of boosted cars run a 50/50 mix of meth / water as a liquid intercooler. If you already knew this you wouldn't be questioning these numbers!!!!
If you think running a blower with a 50/50 mix of meth / water is the same as running NOS, you have a LOT to learn.
Well, you have yet to explain why your 928 is seeing a 25% + drivetrain loss. So I will cast a doubt on any numbers you ever post.
All the best
Have fun at 200mph
Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you always insult other 928 owners....??
Yes I will enjoy 200 and possibly 208 to beat The Carrera GT...AND EVEN POSSIBLY ..I will beat the Veyron standing quarter record at 10.00 seconds at 147 mph....with somewhere between 800 and 1000 hp with my Nitrous....
Oh and if I do...please remind me to worry about driveline losses
No blower could even think about the above ..AND YOU KNOW IT !!!
I think thats why you insult EVERY post of mine...
I think you should go work on your engine...its very relaxing...you DO know what a spanner is I assume ??
All the best Brett
02-20-2007, 10:46 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
I need to get Kevin on the thread to answer your questions about his methanol setup. It is not part of my kit, nor did I install it or tune it. So, I'm not the right guy to answer questions about it.
You can see in the two charts that his HP and Torque actually went down after he turned on the snow methanol spray. But what it did do is level out the air/fuel line nicely, making it safer for the 10.4:1 CR Euro 16v engine.
Kevin is going back to the dyno after he gets his injectors all cleaned and rebuilt - and he says they were dripping, not spraying, when he tested them after the dyno run. I think that should level out the air/fuel ratio too without Methanol.
You can see in the two charts that his HP and Torque actually went down after he turned on the snow methanol spray. But what it did do is level out the air/fuel line nicely, making it safer for the 10.4:1 CR Euro 16v engine.
Kevin is going back to the dyno after he gets his injectors all cleaned and rebuilt - and he says they were dripping, not spraying, when he tested them after the dyno run. I think that should level out the air/fuel ratio too without Methanol.
I have nothing against your kit at all..I even looked at ALL the blower kits and was going to buy one of yours....but the import duty to the Uk was the killer
All I am saying is I would like to see the dyno runs without the alky as it confuses things...
All the best Brett
02-20-2007, 10:51 AM
#49
Developer
If you guys want to have some sort of pissing match please get off this thread.
Kevin is discussing the first ever LH-Jet 16v 84 Euro install and I'm trying to add information as Abe Lincoln would say "warts and all". No coloring of the data - just the facts.
Unique to this car - because it is a '84 true Euro 16v model - (this is the high compression 310 HP model with LH-Jetronic injection) is that it does not have a Lambda loop in the fuel system. Because I had installed superchargers a number of times on LH equipped 928's, I thought this would also receive feedback from the O2 sensor and adjust its air-fuel ratio like they did. Wrong.
With no O2 sensor in the car (other than the joke O2 sensor the federalization process threw into his exhaust pipe that does nothing) - the LMB in this car also has no prvision for receiving an O2 signal and adjusting to it. It is a completely different brain than US LH-Jet cars have. And no, it cannot be "swapped in" - it is a different wiring harness as well.
This makes tuning for the Supercharger on this model MUCH trickier and more old-school.
I do not think we are there yet (Kevin and I) but what you are witnessing a work-in-progress. When we get it dialed in it should be repeatable and fall into the 50 to 55% improvement over stock niche.
Kevin is discussing the first ever LH-Jet 16v 84 Euro install and I'm trying to add information as Abe Lincoln would say "warts and all". No coloring of the data - just the facts.
Unique to this car - because it is a '84 true Euro 16v model - (this is the high compression 310 HP model with LH-Jetronic injection) is that it does not have a Lambda loop in the fuel system. Because I had installed superchargers a number of times on LH equipped 928's, I thought this would also receive feedback from the O2 sensor and adjust its air-fuel ratio like they did. Wrong.
With no O2 sensor in the car (other than the joke O2 sensor the federalization process threw into his exhaust pipe that does nothing) - the LMB in this car also has no prvision for receiving an O2 signal and adjusting to it. It is a completely different brain than US LH-Jet cars have. And no, it cannot be "swapped in" - it is a different wiring harness as well.
This makes tuning for the Supercharger on this model MUCH trickier and more old-school.
I do not think we are there yet (Kevin and I) but what you are witnessing a work-in-progress. When we get it dialed in it should be repeatable and fall into the 50 to 55% improvement over stock niche.
02-20-2007, 10:59 AM
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84 Euro SC
Attached is the dyno from last year (4/06), 354 hp, this year should be better with the air/air intercooler.
Last edited by Jean-Louis; 01-18-2014 at 11:06 AM.
02-20-2007, 11:05 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
If you guys want to have some sort of pissing match please get off this thread.
02-20-2007, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
Sorry Carl, kinda go into overdrive when I see people call your dyno charts worthless when they obviousally have no clue what they are talking about. Mis-information is not good for your business.
Thats PRECISELY what I am saying...
Lose the Methanol...and the dyno chart is then accurate...
All the best Brett
02-20-2007, 11:31 AM
#53
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Originally Posted by BRETT AINLEY
Thats PRECISELY what I am saying...
Lose the Methanol...and the dyno chart is then accurate...
Lose the Methanol...and the dyno chart is then accurate...
02-20-2007, 11:41 AM
#54
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I posted a chart without Methanol (the first one) and one with so you could see the difference. If you do not like the Methanol, look at the other chart.
Jean-Louis - what block is that? What compression ratio? Which year LH-Jetronic fuel system? Can you show us your air-fuel chart?
Jean-Louis - what block is that? What compression ratio? Which year LH-Jetronic fuel system? Can you show us your air-fuel chart?
02-20-2007, 12:08 PM
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84 Euro SC
Carl, I don't have the air fuel chart, but the block was an 84 Euro S with a 83 CIS fuel system with a few modifications as you saw when you were at my house. The fuel was running lean above 6200rpm but I did not need to really go this high with the 350 rwhp. I ran the car at Road America with my wife 2 week end before the accident.
This year with the new car this will be the same 84 Euro S block but with the 84 Euro S injection system and the air/air intercooler.
This year with the new car this will be the same 84 Euro S block but with the 84 Euro S injection system and the air/air intercooler.
02-20-2007, 01:12 PM
#56
Developer
Thanks for the Info Jean-Louis.
Then I need to caution anybody comparing your chart to Kevin's chart as they are NOT THE SAME. K-Jetronic (CIS) and LH-Jet are worlds apart.
Jean-Louis chart has no relevance to Kevin's setup. Only the block is the same.
Then I need to caution anybody comparing your chart to Kevin's chart as they are NOT THE SAME. K-Jetronic (CIS) and LH-Jet are worlds apart.
Jean-Louis chart has no relevance to Kevin's setup. Only the block is the same.
Last edited by Carl Fausett; 02-20-2007 at 02:46 PM.
02-20-2007, 01:22 PM
#57
Hi All,
Sorry about the big delay from last year till now, but the car still needed a few final little tidbits and adjustments. Then the cold weather set in and that really slowed things down. Anyway, just to clarify a few things regarding the new dyno charts....
When I rolled in the door that morning, I had only Carl's system running. I had the Snow system installed, but it was not connected. However, as you can see by the first chart Carl posted, the air/fuel was very lean, and several fuel pressure and gain adjustments didn't cut it, so I switched on the Snow to see if that would help. Yes, we lost a little HP and torque with the methanol, but it made the burn safe for the engine, which is also important.
When I got home and investigated a little more, I found that several of the injectors had problems...one was cracked and all of them were wet.
They are all in a Fedex box winging their way to Doctor Injector as we speak, and I hope to have them back by next Monday with luck. I believe they are going to clean up much of the remaining fueling issues I've been having with this car.
The methanol system is a nice little bundle that overlays on top of Carl's kit very easily. It has maximum adjustability through tuning *****, and at the moment I've got it on its smallest jet (they provide three with their kit), and it was only kicking in at 5 psi. I have it installed after the throttle body, in the intake plenium.
If the refurbed injectors don't fix the rich/lean conditions on their own, I can still turn the Snow on at a lower psi and get the fuel in there that it needs. An MDS switch may be the answer for getting the Snow to turn off at the higher psi when it seems to go rich, and I'm still working that out.
In the meantime, the car is doing great. It gets sideways into every gear at the least provocation, and I am really enjoying the new power.
Still going for 400 at the rear wheel though!
Carl!
Sorry about the big delay from last year till now, but the car still needed a few final little tidbits and adjustments. Then the cold weather set in and that really slowed things down. Anyway, just to clarify a few things regarding the new dyno charts....
When I rolled in the door that morning, I had only Carl's system running. I had the Snow system installed, but it was not connected. However, as you can see by the first chart Carl posted, the air/fuel was very lean, and several fuel pressure and gain adjustments didn't cut it, so I switched on the Snow to see if that would help. Yes, we lost a little HP and torque with the methanol, but it made the burn safe for the engine, which is also important.
When I got home and investigated a little more, I found that several of the injectors had problems...one was cracked and all of them were wet.
They are all in a Fedex box winging their way to Doctor Injector as we speak, and I hope to have them back by next Monday with luck. I believe they are going to clean up much of the remaining fueling issues I've been having with this car. The methanol system is a nice little bundle that overlays on top of Carl's kit very easily. It has maximum adjustability through tuning *****, and at the moment I've got it on its smallest jet (they provide three with their kit), and it was only kicking in at 5 psi. I have it installed after the throttle body, in the intake plenium.
If the refurbed injectors don't fix the rich/lean conditions on their own, I can still turn the Snow on at a lower psi and get the fuel in there that it needs. An MDS switch may be the answer for getting the Snow to turn off at the higher psi when it seems to go rich, and I'm still working that out.
In the meantime, the car is doing great. It gets sideways into every gear at the least provocation, and I am really enjoying the new power.
Still going for 400 at the rear wheel though! Carl!
02-20-2007, 03:36 PM
#58
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I ran water/meth on my 87 car with a stage one kit at about 8 psi boost. I made one run on the dyno with no water/meth and then made another one with it turned on.
Guess what the results were...... car made less HP with the water/meth turned on.
Here is my analysis of what took place..... If the car was detonating due to too much ignition advance the stock ecu would be pulling back timing with respect to the knock count and the car would be down on HP. If that were the case, running the water/meth would would have eliminated the detonation and hence no knock and ignition retard and power would have increased.
The reason why the car made less HP with the water/meth is that the water vapor was taking up space in the combustion chamber where you would normally have fuel. And as some of you may already have guessed, the answer is yes, the engine will run a little leaner when adding the water/meth mix into the intake.
Guess what the results were...... car made less HP with the water/meth turned on.
Here is my analysis of what took place..... If the car was detonating due to too much ignition advance the stock ecu would be pulling back timing with respect to the knock count and the car would be down on HP. If that were the case, running the water/meth would would have eliminated the detonation and hence no knock and ignition retard and power would have increased.
The reason why the car made less HP with the water/meth is that the water vapor was taking up space in the combustion chamber where you would normally have fuel. And as some of you may already have guessed, the answer is yes, the engine will run a little leaner when adding the water/meth mix into the intake.
02-20-2007, 04:03 PM
#59
Hi Tim,
Sorry to play the devil's advocate here, but I'm a little confused. The Snow didn't make the burn leaner, the burn got richer, not only according to the dyno charts Carl posted, but also according to my onboard air/fuel gauge. May I respectfully ask you to clarify?
Thanks,
Kevin
Sorry to play the devil's advocate here, but I'm a little confused. The Snow didn't make the burn leaner, the burn got richer, not only according to the dyno charts Carl posted, but also according to my onboard air/fuel gauge. May I respectfully ask you to clarify?
Thanks,
Kevin