16V versus 32V - which model to buy?
07-09-2006, 02:42 PM
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16V versus 32V - which model to buy?
THOSE WHO ARE NEW TO 928s AND ARE SHOPPING, THIS POST MIGHT HELP.
This is a fantastic forum - better by far than any car, political or any other forum group I've been in.
The diversity is excellent - from racers to those who still want their 928 as a luxury high performance GT2+2 cruiser, incomes ranging from high to blue collar, from those trying to figure out what to do with a super cheap old 79 to those debating spending $600 for different mirrors and who have $5,000 to change tires and wheels.
The generous nature of tech information is truly awesome. I believe it is this forum singularly that is keeping the 928 alive and with available performance parts.
At one time we had 6 928s at our place - at the corner of Main St of two intersecting state highways. Dozens of times people would stop and ask for tech tips or wanting some part for their uncles, friends or their own 928 sitting in someone's garage for years. My response to spares was always "sorry, I keep my parts cars" and ALWAYS tell them at least 5 times "go to Rennlist. Type in Rennlist Porsche 928" in your search engine. All your answers are there."
Sadly, we can't all get together at some local pub, being thousands of miles apart.
I think us mere 16V owners sometimes feel inferior or as though we have outdated 928s. We are the ones for which a few thousand dollars is a whole lot of money and we struggle with the 16V versus the 32V question if we are performance motorheads (what 928 owner isn't?)
Ebay is now the main market place for 928s - and newbies really do not know which way to go. WHen I bought my first 928, I did not know there was even such a thing as 16V versus 32V, nor much of model year differences other than body style and motor displacement.
SIX 928s later, I had some idea of model and motor differences.
This posting is from someone with just enough knowledge of 928s and mechanics to get himself in trouble - and PLEASE understand I am doing this off memory. Before buying a 928, check out the REAL specs on the ones you are considering - including weight, motor displacement and transmission gearing, as well as read up on the differences in model years for fuel injection and computers.
DOLLAR AND PRACTICAL COMPARISON BETWEEN A 16V and a 32V by motor and model - my opinions.
In practical terms, you can get to 500 hp in a 16V for less $$ than a 32V - for the simple reason that a 16V is cheaper. Cheaper to buy for the motor or for the car or for performance parts and upgrades.
A good supercharger or turboecharger set up with corresponding fuel system
upgrades, maybe a set of headers if supercharged and exhaust upgrade will get you to 400 hp and wet NOS will give that 500 hp burst.
For the motor, you are limited by the cast pistons and overall beyond
500 hp you should round up a collection of spare transmissions, clutches
and torque tubes.
Given the cast pistons (regardless of motor) and the drivetrain itself limit your max hp potential, the advantage of a 32V over a 16V is more academic than real. ANY V8 by any manufacturer of any vintage becomes a 400 hp motor if boosted well and 500 with also wet Nitrous oxide.
This included the lowly, disregarded 4.5 USA low compression motor.
I have a worn out early USA 4.5 with a single turbo and upgraded electronics and fuel injection that would blow way any OEM 32V of any year - such is the nature of supercharged and turbocharged motors in general. For upgrading that 1986 1/2, I'm going to a hybred 5.0 Euro 16V, rather than a rebuild on a 32V in a parts car we have. Why? More bang of the buck, valve specs are less important in a boosted motor, and I like how the 16V sounds and looks better - plus the reliability and replacement advantages.
TO THE NEWBIE - Which 928 to buy within your budget?
First, recognize the 928 was the most desireable, arguably fastest and overall superior GT in the world - with a new car price to match it. Calculating inflation, all 928s began life as a $100,000+ car and was the poster child for the successful professional. This never was or is such a thing as a bad model year 928.
16V motors in order of desireability...
The high compression 16V Euro. Bigger valves, bigger ports, higher compression, hotter cams (lower EPA standards in Europe at that time).
BEWARE, MANY Euros do NOT have the high
compression, big valve motor it in - so don't let "Euro" alone tell you
that it is the good motor.
The high compression 5.0 Euro is the top, but the 4.5 is also excellent - and more European.
I tend to shy away from the 4.7 - though am not sure why.
The 4.7 motor is an upgrade from the 4.5, including a better fuel system.
BUT the 4.7 is found in 928 models with LONG transmission gearing and
not enough power to provide enough acceleration - although a higher top
speed and slighter better gas mileage.
I am not a fan of the 4.7 models specifically for that reason. Due to
gearing, they are sluggish. But that is solved with a transmission swap - and they do have a notably higher top speed. If drag racing is not your thing, a 4.7 my be your economical ticket to a 175 mph cruiser. They will do it on the flat. Ask my wife.
Do not write off the USA 4.5. With 8.5-1 compression, they can take the
most boosting, meaning prime supercharger candidates - and still on pump
gasoline.
The 32V?
In that era, it evolved that if a motor did not have 32 valves, it was
not an advanced motor. Actually Maserati claimed that 3 valves was better
for performance (two intake and one highe exhaust) - claiming two intake
valves allow swirling the mixture, but better exhausting comes in one
big exhaust valve - putting 4 valves into a round cylinder is like putting
a square peg in a round hole.
The 32V short block assembly is nearly identical to the 16V (some rare
model exceptions that are minor). The difference in in the heads.
Having 4 cams and 32 valves back then was truly state of the art, is
efficient, does make a bit more power, but also at a cost in a Porsche.
They have the longest timing/cam belt ever made - and if it breaks, you
lost your motor. Not so in USA 16Vs. Parts and rebuilds are very expensive.
So are used motors. They weight a bit more.
A down side to 928s is that as the motors got larger and more powerful,
the cars became heavier and more cushy - a downside if you are looking
for performance as a priority over comfort. Late model 928s are truly
luxurious GT2+2 high speed cruisers, but lack the muscle car feel. Increased
weight also affects cornering adversely.
Of the model years...
The 1978 and 79 models are the performance bargain of the decade. They
lack spoilers, but that means you do not have to remove anything to put
a spoiler on the front and a wing on the back. They all have 4.5 16Vs with
the lower 2.72 rear and the automatics were 3 speed units with 5 speed manuals also produced. The early the model year, the higher percentage of manual transmissions.
They are all (or nearly all) desireable hardtops (no sun/moon roof).
Candidly, I like the early model 928s with the early style bolt on front
spoiler with a late model rear wing as the best looking of all 928s, and
the early 928s had the phone dial wheels - which look better than the
later flat dish wheels (which were state of the art back then, but not
now.)
The downside to 78 and 79 models is they are prone to having very challenging electrical system problems - not in terms of expense to repair but rather in terms of difficulty to find. They are also old - meaning old leather is ragged out - and as their value fell, so did the care of them. Probably 2/3rds of remaining 78 and 79s are not worth restoration for today's sales value.
If a manual transmission, odds are 95% that 2nd and probably 3rd gear sychros are out. You still have the gears, but you'll learn double clutching and hear a lot of gear hitting while shifting.
Of electrical gremlins, if you can find the problem it will cost little to nothing to fix it - if you can find it. That is a big if, though.
Parts for those models and through all 4.5 model years are dirt cheap and easily found - even an entire parts car should not set you back more than $1000.
NOTE: When shopping early models, never buy one that needs a full restoration. There is no reason to and you'd be better off spending an extra $1500 for a clean one.
If you are not stuck on OEM equipment - particularly the seats - if you
start with a 78-79 model and pick well, for not much $$ more you can have a half decent paint job, couple of racing seats, front spoiler and rear wing, used upgrade wheels (if you must) and all for under $10K easily. For around $12K total, including those items, you also can have a supercharger.
And you will have a hardtop. Hardtops are fair more desireable than sun/moon roof models -which nearly all late models have.
1980 - 81 16Vs...
Candidly, I am solid that these are the best 928 16Vs made. To me,
the finest 928 would be a 1980 928 Euro (high comp) with English left hand drive (steering wheel at passenger seat). 3000 pounds. 300 horsepower - perfect 10-1 weight to horsepower ratio with perfect 50/50 chassis balance.
I saw a fella who had one when I bought a 32V parts car off him. Gorgeous English drive black Euro 5 speed with a cream interior. Said he got it for $5K.
Darn, how'd I miss that one!!
There was little upgrading for the 1980 and 81 models, though one significant one. They were lightened about 200 pounds and manual versions weight in at just over 3,000 pounds.
Rediced weight not only improves acceleration, more it improves cornering.
The main difference was in weigh reductions in the drivetrain
and torque tube. They also have the 2.72 gears, meaning topping out around 150 mph.
They have a 4 speed automatic, rather than 3 (if I remember correctly).
ALL 16V manuals have the more desirable dual disc clutch. 32V racers use early dual clutch setups.
Exhaust upgrading (a Bola exhaust the most popular choice) is worthy as the 928 OEM exhaust is heavy and restrictive.
If you have a 4.5 Euro or a 4.5 USA with a supercharger, you have a really cool muscle car in peformance and sound (sounds like a big block V8)
that is exotic, rare, handles like a slot car. Unless you are a racer, the brakes are absolutely good enough, well suited for any panic braking and
a tad less drag and weight that late model front brakes. In short, for dirt cheap you have an awesome high performance GT2+2 that set the world afire back then.
The 4.7 16V...
Gearing on early models limited top speed to around 150 mph and then rnning too high rpms for luxury crusing the Autobaum. So they went to 2.2 long gearing and increased the motor size a bit to add a bit of horsepower. The result was a 928 that could ultimately reach over 170 mph (though they advertised a lower top speed than that).
They still had the awful ceramic fuses and, like early 928s, are known for electrical problems.
Of 928 owners who grumble of lackluster performance, it usually is the 4.7 owners - BUT that is due to the transmission, not the motor (which they may not realize). The high speed gearing comes at the expense of acceleration.
Of course, transmissions can be changed and, if an automatic, for well under $1000. But your top speed potential drops.
The 4.7 bodies came with the ducktail rear spoiler and flat sided wheels.
1985 introduced the 32V. More power, smoother and heavier. They are Cadillac smooth motors, yet powerful, while a 16V motor is more like driving a Boss 302 in sound and aesthetics.
Out of the chassis or in exploded images, both the 16V and 32V get oohs and ahs. They are beautiful motors.
1986 1/2 928 was a transition model. It still had the old 928 body and dual disc clutch, but changed to 2.2 (or thereabouts) gearing, huge front dual caliper brakes, and had the 32V 5.0.
WONDERFULLY, the awful ceramic fuses were gone, replaced with modern fuses - and overall from that point the electrics became far more reliable.
In European models, they stuck with 16V 5.0 motors for a while.
Numbers wise, the 16V high compression Euro beats the early 32V USA motors.
The 1986 1/2 was (in my opinion) specifically targeted at the Lambo Contach - to deny them being faster than the 928. Porsche succeeded in this goal.
I've read the 32V weighs about 50 pounds more.
1987 (I think) saw the body style change and all 928s continued as 32Vs. Luxury and weight continued to climb slowly, as did horsepower. Compression also went up, due to great efficiency of the 4 valve heads and significant improvements to the computers and fuel injection system (EPA standards). The later you get, the heavier, but more luxurious they become. And more expensive to buy, maintain and modify.
Cam, intake, fuel injection and other upgrades came with subsequent 32Vs, with an assortment of transmission gearing and increasingly with limited slip differentials.
The final statement in 928 motors was the 32V 5.4, a 360 hp beauty that with some free flowing done to the exhaust and a performance chip goes over 400 horsepower.
Do not let horsepower numbers get you down. Us 928 owners talk of "rear wheel horsepower", while USA hotrodders and manufacturers talk of crankshaft horsepower with all accessories disconnected.
ALL 928 motors also tend to have a flatter horsepower and torque curve - meaning collectively relatively higher horsepower than their numbers suggest. The 928 was a 14 second car in an era when those did not exist - and they did it without 4.10 rear gears so were still also high speed cruisers - and luxurious cruisers at that - plus handle exorbitantly well. The 928 did it all - even the 78 models.
Beware of the dreams of a Chevy V8 motor swap. Costly. Dull, Huge amounts of time, and an inferior motor. If well kept, you could run a 100,000 mile 928 motor all day and night at 5,500 rpm.
The ideal OEM composite 928? A 32V 5.4 in a 1980 5 speed hardtop with a GT LSD transmission. Of course, few could afford the motor and for less money they could make more hp out of a 16V. Upgrade the tires and it'd walk all over and then run away from a 426 Hemi Cuda. But a Euro 16V or a USA 16V with a supercharger and decent exhaust will too. But, then, you weigh 1000 pounds less - and you still have outstanding handling, brakes and comfort - with twice the gas mileage.
AUTOMATIC VERSUS MANUAL
In nearly any racing circumstance, an automatic is faster - if set up right. The 928 automatic is suppose to be adjustable without mechanical changes - if someone would post how I sure would appreciate it. Lower automatic performance numbers in 928s are due to the automatics being set up to be cushy and many model years to literally start out in 2nd gear.
Manuals are more fun, you can slide the clutch, do cool motor braking coming to stop lights and stuff like that. 5 speed manuals are worth more - particular early models. Very early model automatic 928s are virtually free now.
The ultimate dollar buy now in any semi-exotic peformance car of any model or manufacturer at any point in world history is a 78 or 79 928 with an automatic. Pristine, near showroom condition with under 100K miles on it would bring what, maybe $5,000? Probably more like $3,000. For a $125,000 car in today's dollars.
While 928 prices plummetted while inferior Corvette and the likes of Maserati now climb as classics is beyond me. The same era Covette and Maserati and the others pale in comparision for any performance measure, reliablity measure or aesthetic measure.
But 928s outnumbered Maserati's 50 to 1 and Chevy parts are cheap while Porsche dealership repairs and parts are absurdly high. Simply, people are afraid (rightly so) of repair costs of the complex 928 - and in nearly all early models the interiors are ragging out. The leather interiors of the 928 is stunning, but new leather and decades old leather are different stories, no?
It saddens me to see the lack of interest in early 928s as exotic high performance cruisers for unthinkably dirt cheap prices.
Yes, the 3700 pound GTS is an impressive machine. But for the same $$, a person could have an early 16V beauty that is modified to superior horsepower, handling and cosmetic customization - and do it along the way as their budget allows. To all but us rare 928 owners, there is no distinction between a 16V motor and 32V motor in terms of appearance of power and the 16Vs have a deeper growl. But, then I really like how the spider intake looks - a lot. Actually, this is why we bought our first 928.
Maybe these are the real life distinctions:
If you want high top speed, you want long gears. If you want acceleration, you want short gears.
If an urban daily driver, an automatic. An occasional motorhead peformance car, then an 5 speed.
If you make over $70K a year, probably you want a 32V. If you make less, you want a 16V. Unless you want to go racing. Then figure at least $100K annual income before opting for the 32V.
A 16V model will consume your time and have you pulling your hair out chasing gremlins. A 32V model is more reliable, but is a huge hole in your pocket you can never plug and a slipped timing belt is sudden death of your car.
I remember as legitimate complaints poured in to Maserati over their early BiTurbos response: "If maintainance and repair costs are a concern to you, then you are a person who can not afford a Maserati and are not the Maserati class of people."
It basically broke the company who sold out to Chrysler shortly thereafter when basically no one would buy a Maserati for maintenance costs issues. Yet, other than that, the BiTurbo was an awesome little 4 seat coupe with real upgrade potential. Their resale value now is cheap, cheap, cheap.
That is how a 32V owner with a slipped timing belt feels when they realize that buying a replacement motor and having it rebuilt will set them back likely at least $10K and more unless they install it themselves. Their beautiful 32V 928 instantly became an economic nightmare of a $10K to $20K car needing a $12K repair. You could buy a gorgeous,customized and complete 16V model for far less than that repair.
Again, as a final note, I think picking the final gear ratio makes more performance difference than the motor. Check that out before you buy.
Mark
This is a fantastic forum - better by far than any car, political or any other forum group I've been in.
The diversity is excellent - from racers to those who still want their 928 as a luxury high performance GT2+2 cruiser, incomes ranging from high to blue collar, from those trying to figure out what to do with a super cheap old 79 to those debating spending $600 for different mirrors and who have $5,000 to change tires and wheels.
The generous nature of tech information is truly awesome. I believe it is this forum singularly that is keeping the 928 alive and with available performance parts.
At one time we had 6 928s at our place - at the corner of Main St of two intersecting state highways. Dozens of times people would stop and ask for tech tips or wanting some part for their uncles, friends or their own 928 sitting in someone's garage for years. My response to spares was always "sorry, I keep my parts cars" and ALWAYS tell them at least 5 times "go to Rennlist. Type in Rennlist Porsche 928" in your search engine. All your answers are there."
Sadly, we can't all get together at some local pub, being thousands of miles apart.
I think us mere 16V owners sometimes feel inferior or as though we have outdated 928s. We are the ones for which a few thousand dollars is a whole lot of money and we struggle with the 16V versus the 32V question if we are performance motorheads (what 928 owner isn't?)
Ebay is now the main market place for 928s - and newbies really do not know which way to go. WHen I bought my first 928, I did not know there was even such a thing as 16V versus 32V, nor much of model year differences other than body style and motor displacement.
SIX 928s later, I had some idea of model and motor differences.
This posting is from someone with just enough knowledge of 928s and mechanics to get himself in trouble - and PLEASE understand I am doing this off memory. Before buying a 928, check out the REAL specs on the ones you are considering - including weight, motor displacement and transmission gearing, as well as read up on the differences in model years for fuel injection and computers.
DOLLAR AND PRACTICAL COMPARISON BETWEEN A 16V and a 32V by motor and model - my opinions.
In practical terms, you can get to 500 hp in a 16V for less $$ than a 32V - for the simple reason that a 16V is cheaper. Cheaper to buy for the motor or for the car or for performance parts and upgrades.
A good supercharger or turboecharger set up with corresponding fuel system
upgrades, maybe a set of headers if supercharged and exhaust upgrade will get you to 400 hp and wet NOS will give that 500 hp burst.
For the motor, you are limited by the cast pistons and overall beyond
500 hp you should round up a collection of spare transmissions, clutches
and torque tubes.
Given the cast pistons (regardless of motor) and the drivetrain itself limit your max hp potential, the advantage of a 32V over a 16V is more academic than real. ANY V8 by any manufacturer of any vintage becomes a 400 hp motor if boosted well and 500 with also wet Nitrous oxide.
This included the lowly, disregarded 4.5 USA low compression motor.
I have a worn out early USA 4.5 with a single turbo and upgraded electronics and fuel injection that would blow way any OEM 32V of any year - such is the nature of supercharged and turbocharged motors in general. For upgrading that 1986 1/2, I'm going to a hybred 5.0 Euro 16V, rather than a rebuild on a 32V in a parts car we have. Why? More bang of the buck, valve specs are less important in a boosted motor, and I like how the 16V sounds and looks better - plus the reliability and replacement advantages.
TO THE NEWBIE - Which 928 to buy within your budget?
First, recognize the 928 was the most desireable, arguably fastest and overall superior GT in the world - with a new car price to match it. Calculating inflation, all 928s began life as a $100,000+ car and was the poster child for the successful professional. This never was or is such a thing as a bad model year 928.
16V motors in order of desireability...
The high compression 16V Euro. Bigger valves, bigger ports, higher compression, hotter cams (lower EPA standards in Europe at that time).
BEWARE, MANY Euros do NOT have the high
compression, big valve motor it in - so don't let "Euro" alone tell you
that it is the good motor.
The high compression 5.0 Euro is the top, but the 4.5 is also excellent - and more European.
I tend to shy away from the 4.7 - though am not sure why.
The 4.7 motor is an upgrade from the 4.5, including a better fuel system.
BUT the 4.7 is found in 928 models with LONG transmission gearing and
not enough power to provide enough acceleration - although a higher top
speed and slighter better gas mileage.
I am not a fan of the 4.7 models specifically for that reason. Due to
gearing, they are sluggish. But that is solved with a transmission swap - and they do have a notably higher top speed. If drag racing is not your thing, a 4.7 my be your economical ticket to a 175 mph cruiser. They will do it on the flat. Ask my wife.
Do not write off the USA 4.5. With 8.5-1 compression, they can take the
most boosting, meaning prime supercharger candidates - and still on pump
gasoline.
The 32V?
In that era, it evolved that if a motor did not have 32 valves, it was
not an advanced motor. Actually Maserati claimed that 3 valves was better
for performance (two intake and one highe exhaust) - claiming two intake
valves allow swirling the mixture, but better exhausting comes in one
big exhaust valve - putting 4 valves into a round cylinder is like putting
a square peg in a round hole.
The 32V short block assembly is nearly identical to the 16V (some rare
model exceptions that are minor). The difference in in the heads.
Having 4 cams and 32 valves back then was truly state of the art, is
efficient, does make a bit more power, but also at a cost in a Porsche.
They have the longest timing/cam belt ever made - and if it breaks, you
lost your motor. Not so in USA 16Vs. Parts and rebuilds are very expensive.
So are used motors. They weight a bit more.
A down side to 928s is that as the motors got larger and more powerful,
the cars became heavier and more cushy - a downside if you are looking
for performance as a priority over comfort. Late model 928s are truly
luxurious GT2+2 high speed cruisers, but lack the muscle car feel. Increased
weight also affects cornering adversely.
Of the model years...
The 1978 and 79 models are the performance bargain of the decade. They
lack spoilers, but that means you do not have to remove anything to put
a spoiler on the front and a wing on the back. They all have 4.5 16Vs with
the lower 2.72 rear and the automatics were 3 speed units with 5 speed manuals also produced. The early the model year, the higher percentage of manual transmissions.
They are all (or nearly all) desireable hardtops (no sun/moon roof).
Candidly, I like the early model 928s with the early style bolt on front
spoiler with a late model rear wing as the best looking of all 928s, and
the early 928s had the phone dial wheels - which look better than the
later flat dish wheels (which were state of the art back then, but not
now.)
The downside to 78 and 79 models is they are prone to having very challenging electrical system problems - not in terms of expense to repair but rather in terms of difficulty to find. They are also old - meaning old leather is ragged out - and as their value fell, so did the care of them. Probably 2/3rds of remaining 78 and 79s are not worth restoration for today's sales value.
If a manual transmission, odds are 95% that 2nd and probably 3rd gear sychros are out. You still have the gears, but you'll learn double clutching and hear a lot of gear hitting while shifting.
Of electrical gremlins, if you can find the problem it will cost little to nothing to fix it - if you can find it. That is a big if, though.
Parts for those models and through all 4.5 model years are dirt cheap and easily found - even an entire parts car should not set you back more than $1000.
NOTE: When shopping early models, never buy one that needs a full restoration. There is no reason to and you'd be better off spending an extra $1500 for a clean one.
If you are not stuck on OEM equipment - particularly the seats - if you
start with a 78-79 model and pick well, for not much $$ more you can have a half decent paint job, couple of racing seats, front spoiler and rear wing, used upgrade wheels (if you must) and all for under $10K easily. For around $12K total, including those items, you also can have a supercharger.
And you will have a hardtop. Hardtops are fair more desireable than sun/moon roof models -which nearly all late models have.
1980 - 81 16Vs...
Candidly, I am solid that these are the best 928 16Vs made. To me,
the finest 928 would be a 1980 928 Euro (high comp) with English left hand drive (steering wheel at passenger seat). 3000 pounds. 300 horsepower - perfect 10-1 weight to horsepower ratio with perfect 50/50 chassis balance.
I saw a fella who had one when I bought a 32V parts car off him. Gorgeous English drive black Euro 5 speed with a cream interior. Said he got it for $5K.
Darn, how'd I miss that one!!
There was little upgrading for the 1980 and 81 models, though one significant one. They were lightened about 200 pounds and manual versions weight in at just over 3,000 pounds.
Rediced weight not only improves acceleration, more it improves cornering.
The main difference was in weigh reductions in the drivetrain
and torque tube. They also have the 2.72 gears, meaning topping out around 150 mph.
They have a 4 speed automatic, rather than 3 (if I remember correctly).
ALL 16V manuals have the more desirable dual disc clutch. 32V racers use early dual clutch setups.
Exhaust upgrading (a Bola exhaust the most popular choice) is worthy as the 928 OEM exhaust is heavy and restrictive.
If you have a 4.5 Euro or a 4.5 USA with a supercharger, you have a really cool muscle car in peformance and sound (sounds like a big block V8)
that is exotic, rare, handles like a slot car. Unless you are a racer, the brakes are absolutely good enough, well suited for any panic braking and
a tad less drag and weight that late model front brakes. In short, for dirt cheap you have an awesome high performance GT2+2 that set the world afire back then.
The 4.7 16V...
Gearing on early models limited top speed to around 150 mph and then rnning too high rpms for luxury crusing the Autobaum. So they went to 2.2 long gearing and increased the motor size a bit to add a bit of horsepower. The result was a 928 that could ultimately reach over 170 mph (though they advertised a lower top speed than that).
They still had the awful ceramic fuses and, like early 928s, are known for electrical problems.
Of 928 owners who grumble of lackluster performance, it usually is the 4.7 owners - BUT that is due to the transmission, not the motor (which they may not realize). The high speed gearing comes at the expense of acceleration.
Of course, transmissions can be changed and, if an automatic, for well under $1000. But your top speed potential drops.
The 4.7 bodies came with the ducktail rear spoiler and flat sided wheels.
1985 introduced the 32V. More power, smoother and heavier. They are Cadillac smooth motors, yet powerful, while a 16V motor is more like driving a Boss 302 in sound and aesthetics.
Out of the chassis or in exploded images, both the 16V and 32V get oohs and ahs. They are beautiful motors.
1986 1/2 928 was a transition model. It still had the old 928 body and dual disc clutch, but changed to 2.2 (or thereabouts) gearing, huge front dual caliper brakes, and had the 32V 5.0.
WONDERFULLY, the awful ceramic fuses were gone, replaced with modern fuses - and overall from that point the electrics became far more reliable.
In European models, they stuck with 16V 5.0 motors for a while.
Numbers wise, the 16V high compression Euro beats the early 32V USA motors.
The 1986 1/2 was (in my opinion) specifically targeted at the Lambo Contach - to deny them being faster than the 928. Porsche succeeded in this goal.
I've read the 32V weighs about 50 pounds more.
1987 (I think) saw the body style change and all 928s continued as 32Vs. Luxury and weight continued to climb slowly, as did horsepower. Compression also went up, due to great efficiency of the 4 valve heads and significant improvements to the computers and fuel injection system (EPA standards). The later you get, the heavier, but more luxurious they become. And more expensive to buy, maintain and modify.
Cam, intake, fuel injection and other upgrades came with subsequent 32Vs, with an assortment of transmission gearing and increasingly with limited slip differentials.
The final statement in 928 motors was the 32V 5.4, a 360 hp beauty that with some free flowing done to the exhaust and a performance chip goes over 400 horsepower.
Do not let horsepower numbers get you down. Us 928 owners talk of "rear wheel horsepower", while USA hotrodders and manufacturers talk of crankshaft horsepower with all accessories disconnected.
ALL 928 motors also tend to have a flatter horsepower and torque curve - meaning collectively relatively higher horsepower than their numbers suggest. The 928 was a 14 second car in an era when those did not exist - and they did it without 4.10 rear gears so were still also high speed cruisers - and luxurious cruisers at that - plus handle exorbitantly well. The 928 did it all - even the 78 models.
Beware of the dreams of a Chevy V8 motor swap. Costly. Dull, Huge amounts of time, and an inferior motor. If well kept, you could run a 100,000 mile 928 motor all day and night at 5,500 rpm.
The ideal OEM composite 928? A 32V 5.4 in a 1980 5 speed hardtop with a GT LSD transmission. Of course, few could afford the motor and for less money they could make more hp out of a 16V. Upgrade the tires and it'd walk all over and then run away from a 426 Hemi Cuda. But a Euro 16V or a USA 16V with a supercharger and decent exhaust will too. But, then, you weigh 1000 pounds less - and you still have outstanding handling, brakes and comfort - with twice the gas mileage.
AUTOMATIC VERSUS MANUAL
In nearly any racing circumstance, an automatic is faster - if set up right. The 928 automatic is suppose to be adjustable without mechanical changes - if someone would post how I sure would appreciate it. Lower automatic performance numbers in 928s are due to the automatics being set up to be cushy and many model years to literally start out in 2nd gear.
Manuals are more fun, you can slide the clutch, do cool motor braking coming to stop lights and stuff like that. 5 speed manuals are worth more - particular early models. Very early model automatic 928s are virtually free now.
The ultimate dollar buy now in any semi-exotic peformance car of any model or manufacturer at any point in world history is a 78 or 79 928 with an automatic. Pristine, near showroom condition with under 100K miles on it would bring what, maybe $5,000? Probably more like $3,000. For a $125,000 car in today's dollars.
While 928 prices plummetted while inferior Corvette and the likes of Maserati now climb as classics is beyond me. The same era Covette and Maserati and the others pale in comparision for any performance measure, reliablity measure or aesthetic measure.
But 928s outnumbered Maserati's 50 to 1 and Chevy parts are cheap while Porsche dealership repairs and parts are absurdly high. Simply, people are afraid (rightly so) of repair costs of the complex 928 - and in nearly all early models the interiors are ragging out. The leather interiors of the 928 is stunning, but new leather and decades old leather are different stories, no?
It saddens me to see the lack of interest in early 928s as exotic high performance cruisers for unthinkably dirt cheap prices.
Yes, the 3700 pound GTS is an impressive machine. But for the same $$, a person could have an early 16V beauty that is modified to superior horsepower, handling and cosmetic customization - and do it along the way as their budget allows. To all but us rare 928 owners, there is no distinction between a 16V motor and 32V motor in terms of appearance of power and the 16Vs have a deeper growl. But, then I really like how the spider intake looks - a lot. Actually, this is why we bought our first 928.
Maybe these are the real life distinctions:
If you want high top speed, you want long gears. If you want acceleration, you want short gears.
If an urban daily driver, an automatic. An occasional motorhead peformance car, then an 5 speed.
If you make over $70K a year, probably you want a 32V. If you make less, you want a 16V. Unless you want to go racing. Then figure at least $100K annual income before opting for the 32V.
A 16V model will consume your time and have you pulling your hair out chasing gremlins. A 32V model is more reliable, but is a huge hole in your pocket you can never plug and a slipped timing belt is sudden death of your car.
I remember as legitimate complaints poured in to Maserati over their early BiTurbos response: "If maintainance and repair costs are a concern to you, then you are a person who can not afford a Maserati and are not the Maserati class of people."
It basically broke the company who sold out to Chrysler shortly thereafter when basically no one would buy a Maserati for maintenance costs issues. Yet, other than that, the BiTurbo was an awesome little 4 seat coupe with real upgrade potential. Their resale value now is cheap, cheap, cheap.
That is how a 32V owner with a slipped timing belt feels when they realize that buying a replacement motor and having it rebuilt will set them back likely at least $10K and more unless they install it themselves. Their beautiful 32V 928 instantly became an economic nightmare of a $10K to $20K car needing a $12K repair. You could buy a gorgeous,customized and complete 16V model for far less than that repair.
Again, as a final note, I think picking the final gear ratio makes more performance difference than the motor. Check that out before you buy.
Mark
07-09-2006, 02:52 PM
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Just to quickly comment on the people on this forum, I truthfully have no clue how anyone could own or properly maintain a 928 without getting on this forum at least every week to stay up to date on these cars. I haven't asked many questions at all, but this forum has saved me thousands of bucks and countless hours of scratching my head just by looking thru the archives. If I could afford to buy everyone a beer everytime they got me out of a jam, I would. I tell everyone that you're not just buying a Shark, you're also buying a worldwide community that will help you maintain it in a heartbeat.
07-09-2006, 03:22 PM
#3
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Mark,
Very nice and insightful analysis. I'm sure that many would dispute a fact or two but I sure wish I had such wisdom to draw upon way back when. As it turns out I think I lucked into a good car but knowledge like yours is a wonderful thing.
Thanks
Very nice and insightful analysis. I'm sure that many would dispute a fact or two but I sure wish I had such wisdom to draw upon way back when. As it turns out I think I lucked into a good car but knowledge like yours is a wonderful thing.
Thanks
07-09-2006, 03:53 PM
#4
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Yeah, great post. Maybe we can add this to the new owner FAQ. I also lucked into my Euro S. I found this forum after I bought the car. The main reason why I picked it is cause in the ebay ad the guy wrote 1980 928S. The sites that I looked at listed the S beginning in 1983. I just figured the guy knew what he was talking about.
07-09-2006, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pmotts
A great post from a 16V owners perspective, I suppose. I could argue successfully against many points but it is still fun to see someones 'opinion'.
07-09-2006, 05:22 PM
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My post is "food for thought", certain all sorts of errors and all is arguable.
There are many performance items you can not get for a 16V, for example, such as a twin screw setup.
It is important to newbies considering buying a 928 to understand that it's real superiority in performacne is in handling. I sold my 1980 5 speed to an old hotrodder who came to look just for curiousity. I took him on a 14 back road route that was slightly rolling hills, excellent surface road, no traffic and no other traffic at night - with wonderful collections of 30 to 90 degree semi-banked curves marked from 25 to 35 mph, one right after another.
When I came out of one marked 25 - entering at just over 50 and coming out at nearly 70, she said simply, "SOLD!"
For a street car, it would have cost 3 times as much for the same cornering machine in a 32V - if it could - and that would have been outside his budget anyway. Nor could any American V8 muscle car have matched it. For under $5K, he drove off in the fastest car in the curves on our rural county. By far actually.
There is a vast difference between building a race car for the track and a semi-daily driver street car.
There are folks in this forum with 1000 times the 928 knowledge and wisdom. Mine is lay and quasi ignorant views. But that also is ;likely so for most 928 owners and interested prospective buyers.
But for this forum, I would have dumped 928s long ago as my alternative would be a Dallas Porsche dealership or shop - which charge $500 to open the hood and $1000 if it has to go on the rack as the base charge starting point - or so it seems.
This also means there is no excuse for a 928 owner not to be a PAID member of this forum, btw
Mark
There are many performance items you can not get for a 16V, for example, such as a twin screw setup.
It is important to newbies considering buying a 928 to understand that it's real superiority in performacne is in handling. I sold my 1980 5 speed to an old hotrodder who came to look just for curiousity. I took him on a 14 back road route that was slightly rolling hills, excellent surface road, no traffic and no other traffic at night - with wonderful collections of 30 to 90 degree semi-banked curves marked from 25 to 35 mph, one right after another.
When I came out of one marked 25 - entering at just over 50 and coming out at nearly 70, she said simply, "SOLD!"
For a street car, it would have cost 3 times as much for the same cornering machine in a 32V - if it could - and that would have been outside his budget anyway. Nor could any American V8 muscle car have matched it. For under $5K, he drove off in the fastest car in the curves on our rural county. By far actually.
There is a vast difference between building a race car for the track and a semi-daily driver street car.
There are folks in this forum with 1000 times the 928 knowledge and wisdom. Mine is lay and quasi ignorant views. But that also is ;likely so for most 928 owners and interested prospective buyers.
But for this forum, I would have dumped 928s long ago as my alternative would be a Dallas Porsche dealership or shop - which charge $500 to open the hood and $1000 if it has to go on the rack as the base charge starting point - or so it seems.
This also means there is no excuse for a 928 owner not to be a PAID member of this forum, btw
Mark
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07-09-2006, 05:31 PM
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Ha to the comment about a mislead that it was a 928S. My first 928 buy was worse.
Our first 928 was an ebay 1984 automatic with an early version S4 body kit - looks sharp, a real eye grabber, and with S4 sticker on the back bumper - the fella even boasted of its "32 valve motor.'
Not only did I not know any better, he really didn't either. Of course it is a 4.7 16V. Still, at $4k it was a bargain.
I truly believe he thought he had a 32V motor because it said S4 on the back and was not only a super guy, but notably generous. For example, when it was not charging right he bought a new alternator and installation at a Porsche shop without my even asking. People aren't born with knowledge of Porsche. Hopefully, those interested will learn abit before making decisions.
Or learn the hard way - which generally is the route I have gone. It has taken 6 928s to figure out want is suited for myself and my real (though stretched) budget.
Mark
Our first 928 was an ebay 1984 automatic with an early version S4 body kit - looks sharp, a real eye grabber, and with S4 sticker on the back bumper - the fella even boasted of its "32 valve motor.'
Not only did I not know any better, he really didn't either. Of course it is a 4.7 16V. Still, at $4k it was a bargain.
I truly believe he thought he had a 32V motor because it said S4 on the back and was not only a super guy, but notably generous. For example, when it was not charging right he bought a new alternator and installation at a Porsche shop without my even asking. People aren't born with knowledge of Porsche. Hopefully, those interested will learn abit before making decisions.
Or learn the hard way - which generally is the route I have gone. It has taken 6 928s to figure out want is suited for myself and my real (though stretched) budget.
Mark
07-09-2006, 08:51 PM
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This is one of the best threads I've read on this forum... it should be bumped every week so that it stays on the first page! It fully supports what I have discovered in my few months as a 928 owner, although I have zero experience with any other 928 than my '82 automatic US model, which is amply fast for me. It also validates that I get a pretty good deal on mine: I was driving a '78 Mercedes 300CD diesel, still running strongly, but rusting out from under me, and I needed to get a different car. There's an awesome aftermarket/off-market Mercedes dealer in the town where I live who has serviced mine for years, and he picked up this '82 928 in a trade. Unbelievably clean car, no dings, no dents, no bangs... the occasional stone chip and two quarter-sized surface rust spots on the hatch. Not a single tear in the leather, just a couple of hard spots on the front seats which are slowly yielding to leatherique... the rear seats are mint, as is the carpeting. The only interior downside is the dash: leather covered, but buckling underneath the leather around the vent openings (I'm not sure just how to fix that).
Mechanically, the car was in good condition... good comp. in all cylinders, quick starting even in cold weather. It needed a rear wheel bearing and some A/C work and that was it. $3900 total plus he gave me a very reasonably trade for my Merc. The real upside to this purchase is that the dealer I bought it from has a mechanic who knows 928s really well. So... I'm happy, and a real convert to the 928, and I loved this posting!
Mechanically, the car was in good condition... good comp. in all cylinders, quick starting even in cold weather. It needed a rear wheel bearing and some A/C work and that was it. $3900 total plus he gave me a very reasonably trade for my Merc. The real upside to this purchase is that the dealer I bought it from has a mechanic who knows 928s really well. So... I'm happy, and a real convert to the 928, and I loved this posting!
01-24-2007, 05:47 AM
#12
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I hope nobody minds my bringing up an old thread... but like others said it's a good one so I thought I'd vivify it.
I never knew we had a 4.7 16v in ours - I always thought it was a 4.5 16v. So then that means we also have the tall-geared transmission? If it ever needs replacing, I'm looking for a shorter-geared one, then.
Thanks for the post, Mark!
I never knew we had a 4.7 16v in ours - I always thought it was a 4.5 16v. So then that means we also have the tall-geared transmission? If it ever needs replacing, I'm looking for a shorter-geared one, then.
Thanks for the post, Mark!
01-24-2007, 06:29 AM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Except you got it backwards, our early cars have the very nice 2.75 differential and the mpg years are 2.20 which makes the 5th gear much less useful.
I didn't know anybody could write a post that long and not explode. Despite how long it is, it isn't 10% of what new 928 buyers should educate themselves with. These cars have personality that is not easily captured in charts and figures.
My strongest recommendation is to drive a few cars before you buy, even if it means going hundreds of miles and pretending to be the king of England. Until you have driven different model years and types you just won't know what you are or aren't missing. Also even if its way out of your budget, you need to try a really nice car, otherwise you may think a car is realy nice thats just nicely detailed.
Take your time.
Make your own judgments, many enthusiasts are like twinkies overfilled with sweet filling and not very open to discussion of the 928 weak points and benefits of one model over another.
Refinance your mortgage, find a good mechanic, then shop to buy.
I didn't know anybody could write a post that long and not explode. Despite how long it is, it isn't 10% of what new 928 buyers should educate themselves with. These cars have personality that is not easily captured in charts and figures.
My strongest recommendation is to drive a few cars before you buy, even if it means going hundreds of miles and pretending to be the king of England. Until you have driven different model years and types you just won't know what you are or aren't missing. Also even if its way out of your budget, you need to try a really nice car, otherwise you may think a car is realy nice thats just nicely detailed.
Take your time.
Make your own judgments, many enthusiasts are like twinkies overfilled with sweet filling and not very open to discussion of the 928 weak points and benefits of one model over another.
Refinance your mortgage, find a good mechanic, then shop to buy.
01-24-2007, 04:59 PM
#15
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Alright I'm confused, what's the final drive on a '83 S (usa)? Also what is it on an '84 S, since we got the transmission (and I think differential) from an '84. Where can one find all the info on gearing, anyway?
Where can I find info on turbochargers? All I see around here are superchargers.
Where can I find info on turbochargers? All I see around here are superchargers.