View Poll Results: Shark handling vs 1977 911
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll
911 Handling vs Shark
#31
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I have driven both. It depends on the situation and the driver. For sharp quick lane changes like when your testing a car, a lighter, shorter wheelbase wins but for real driving with fast sweepers etc. I'll take the 928.
I have personal experience with 944's and new 996's and the 928 takes the 944 and equals the 996. But neither will give the same relaxed and comfortable feel as the 928 when being pushed.
I have personal experience with 944's and new 996's and the 928 takes the 944 and equals the 996. But neither will give the same relaxed and comfortable feel as the 928 when being pushed.
#32
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Came across the following on another board the other day. Since 911 handling is being discussed here, I thought it might be of interest to some.
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9383/930suit0bh.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9383/930suit0bh.jpg
#34
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Originally Posted by Larry928GTS
Came across the following ...
Too bad I wasn't on the Jury in 1980. 60 in a 25 m.p.h zone? Cause and Effect.
#35
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The 911/930 platform isn't a negative, or "poisonous" trait, due to it's rear weight bias! That's the reason they are such awesome track cars, even when competing against more powerful cars. That said, the driver needs to know what they're doing. One must have a brave right foot when the car starts to slide, as the car doesn't reward timid drivers. Ask me how I know! (you haven't lived until you've spun a 911 at 90mph on the track!)
My 928 is a joy to drive, the ultimate mix of handling, power, style & comfort. It gobbles up miles. If you have to go somewhere, particularly a long distance, fire up the shark.
My 911 is the car to drive, however, if I want to truly go out and test my skills and feed my "need for speed" on a Saturday morning.
Apples and Oranges.
My 928 is a joy to drive, the ultimate mix of handling, power, style & comfort. It gobbles up miles. If you have to go somewhere, particularly a long distance, fire up the shark.
My 911 is the car to drive, however, if I want to truly go out and test my skills and feed my "need for speed" on a Saturday morning.
Apples and Oranges.
#36
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Originally Posted by Ed Hughes
The 911/930 platform isn't a negative, or "poisonous" trait, due to it's rear weight bias! That's the reason they are such awesome track cars, even when competing against more powerful cars. That said, the driver needs to know what they're doing. One must have a brave right foot when the car starts to slide, as the car doesn't reward timid drivers. Ask me how I know! (you haven't lived until you've spun a 911 at 90mph on the track!)
Living?? I spun my previous 911 at LRP at 100mph and I agree it was quite the experience. Almost stained my shorts. When I came to a stop I looked up the embankment to see people snapping pictures. Not something I care to repeat too often.
Originally Posted by Ed Hughes
My 928 is a joy to drive, the ultimate mix of handling, power, style & comfort. It gobbles up miles. If you have to go somewhere, particularly a long distance, fire up the shark.
My 911 is the car to drive, however, if I want to truly go out and test my skills and feed my "need for speed" on a Saturday morning.
Apples and Oranges.
My 911 is the car to drive, however, if I want to truly go out and test my skills and feed my "need for speed" on a Saturday morning.
Apples and Oranges.
#38
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In July, 1984 Car & Driver had an article titled "The Best-Handling Imported Car Is ..." Tests were performed on an SCCA Pro Solo Gumkhana course. They also ran the cars at Willow Springs and performed a few other tests. From these tests, it was clear the 911 trumps the 928 at handling:
Skid Pad, smooth: 911 0.84G, 928 0.76G
Skid Pad, bumpy: 911 0.82G, 928 0.76G
900ft slalom mph: 911 59.8, 928 58.2
lane change mph: 911 53.7, 928 50.7
braking into a corner mph: 911 51.7, 928 51.2
accelerating out of a corner mph: 911 42.1, 928 40.4
SCCA gymkhana mph: 911 25.6, 928 24.5
Willow Springs turn 5 mph: 911 74.2, 928 70.1
Lap average mph: 911 86.7, 928 85.1
Objective test summary (max score 72): 911 61pts., 928 26pts.
It was a clean sweep for the 911. Sure the 928 may be faster at some tracks, but thats due to speed on the straights, not in the turns. The 928 is a great GT cruiser and decent sports car, but its not a pure bred sports car like a 911. A 928 shouldn't be expected to out handle a 911 on a race track, it wasn't designed to do that. However if we define 'handling' as 'easy to drive fast' then the 928 would win. The 911 takes quite a bit more attention to detail to drive fast. So let me ask again, how are we defining 'handling' in this poll?
Skid Pad, smooth: 911 0.84G, 928 0.76G
Skid Pad, bumpy: 911 0.82G, 928 0.76G
900ft slalom mph: 911 59.8, 928 58.2
lane change mph: 911 53.7, 928 50.7
braking into a corner mph: 911 51.7, 928 51.2
accelerating out of a corner mph: 911 42.1, 928 40.4
SCCA gymkhana mph: 911 25.6, 928 24.5
Willow Springs turn 5 mph: 911 74.2, 928 70.1
Lap average mph: 911 86.7, 928 85.1
Objective test summary (max score 72): 911 61pts., 928 26pts.
It was a clean sweep for the 911. Sure the 928 may be faster at some tracks, but thats due to speed on the straights, not in the turns. The 928 is a great GT cruiser and decent sports car, but its not a pure bred sports car like a 911. A 928 shouldn't be expected to out handle a 911 on a race track, it wasn't designed to do that. However if we define 'handling' as 'easy to drive fast' then the 928 would win. The 911 takes quite a bit more attention to detail to drive fast. So let me ask again, how are we defining 'handling' in this poll?
#39
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Originally Posted by jakermc
In July, 1984 Car & Driver ...
braking into a corner mph: 911 51.7, 928 51.2
...
braking into a corner mph: 911 51.7, 928 51.2
...
#40
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A 911 carries a lot less weight into the corner, and weight transfers appropriately to the frint if done as any worthy 911 driver does. The 928 is indeed more balanced, but weight transferred forward is exactly the same at the end of the day. The heavier 928 cannot carry the 911's speed into a front straight end brake. Not unless it is significantly lightened.
#41
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I refuse to apologize for my fat n lazy 928
the obvous answer is to have 1 of each - and a pasta rocked, plane, RV, pickup, limo so that one has the perfect vehicle for any occasion.
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#42
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my 928 keeps up with many of the 1999-2000vintage 996 GT3 cup cars,with similar mods. 15 year older car as well. as you know, the cup car is head and shoulders above the older 911s. you cant compare a 2000lb super gutted 911 to a 2700 928 . weight differences are a huge factor on handling and breaking, although, the bigger tires you can fit on the 928 makes up for some of the diff.
my car is still stockish with a set of headers, street sport suspension, wheels and tires, and gutted. there are NO other porsches made that can have these mods and keep up with it. (or any other production cars 10 years newer)
mk
my car is still stockish with a set of headers, street sport suspension, wheels and tires, and gutted. there are NO other porsches made that can have these mods and keep up with it. (or any other production cars 10 years newer)
mk
Originally Posted by michaelathome
Chris,
They are different cars? The 928 was built as a GT (Grand Touring) car. The 928 has a better F/R weight ratio and a wider stance than a 911, maybe not a 930/5 of the same era w/out mods.
I am guessing that if you were to put heavier sways than stock, heavier shocks and do some other suspension refreshing it could hold it's own against a lot of new sports cars.
There are a lot of things to consider when trying to make a comparison as you have. I would say that it should be able to with the right set-up if not handle better, but the driving style of both is going to be different and adjustments on the drivers behalf will have to be made.
Kilbort, Carl F and others keep up with much newer and more expensive cars than theirs on the track including 911/930/935's and variants. I can't imagine that with a suspension refresh and some time behind the wheel to learn the cars characteristics it couldn't hold it's own.
My .02
Michael
They are different cars? The 928 was built as a GT (Grand Touring) car. The 928 has a better F/R weight ratio and a wider stance than a 911, maybe not a 930/5 of the same era w/out mods.
I am guessing that if you were to put heavier sways than stock, heavier shocks and do some other suspension refreshing it could hold it's own against a lot of new sports cars.
There are a lot of things to consider when trying to make a comparison as you have. I would say that it should be able to with the right set-up if not handle better, but the driving style of both is going to be different and adjustments on the drivers behalf will have to be made.
Kilbort, Carl F and others keep up with much newer and more expensive cars than theirs on the track including 911/930/935's and variants. I can't imagine that with a suspension refresh and some time behind the wheel to learn the cars characteristics it couldn't hold it's own.
My .02
Michael
#43
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I voted equal.
If you have 9 minutes to kill, I recorded this at a Speedventures Time Trial event at Buttonwillow.
993 vs. 928S4 (35 MB)
Both cars have:
stock engine w/ exhaust mods,
track suspension mods,
some interior gutting,
rollbars & racing seats,
drivers w/ similar skills at the wheel,
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires,
the fastest paint color (black).
Best laptimes were w/in a second of each other.
If you have 9 minutes to kill, I recorded this at a Speedventures Time Trial event at Buttonwillow.
993 vs. 928S4 (35 MB)
Both cars have:
stock engine w/ exhaust mods,
track suspension mods,
some interior gutting,
rollbars & racing seats,
drivers w/ similar skills at the wheel,
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires,
the fastest paint color (black).
Best laptimes were w/in a second of each other.
#44
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I agree that you can make any car handle but I thought the thread started based on stock or at best simple bolt on modifications. Gutting a 928 will make a ton of difference (no pun intended
) I think when throwing Marks car into the picture makes this more apples and oranges and from what I have read throwing Mark into the picture puts most others at an unfair disadvantage no matter what car he is driving.
Anyone have access to test equipment and a location. I have a 94 turbo and a 93 GTS both built within 3 months of each other and I would be curious to know which comes out on top. (Although I am 90% sure I know which will triumph).
Technically these are the best of both variants and it would make for an interesting contest. I think we could safely say that this would also cover most of the newer cars because many articles written show the 964 turbo to be very close or better in performance to the 993TT (stock and modified) 996TT and even the 959. These articles were also running stock suspension and narrow rear tires.
I have similar suspension setups in both cars (although the GTS has better sways and slightly stiffer springs) and both are running the same PS2 tires. I know I can easily dust the 928 at most autocorss events in the turbo and form the seat of the pants feel the turbo would do the same on a track even with the lesser suspension.
If anyone can organize it close to my home tracks I would be game. I think it might answer many arguments. Although We would need to figure out insurance and other things first.
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Anyone have access to test equipment and a location. I have a 94 turbo and a 93 GTS both built within 3 months of each other and I would be curious to know which comes out on top. (Although I am 90% sure I know which will triumph).
Technically these are the best of both variants and it would make for an interesting contest. I think we could safely say that this would also cover most of the newer cars because many articles written show the 964 turbo to be very close or better in performance to the 993TT (stock and modified) 996TT and even the 959. These articles were also running stock suspension and narrow rear tires.
I have similar suspension setups in both cars (although the GTS has better sways and slightly stiffer springs) and both are running the same PS2 tires. I know I can easily dust the 928 at most autocorss events in the turbo and form the seat of the pants feel the turbo would do the same on a track even with the lesser suspension.
If anyone can organize it close to my home tracks I would be game. I think it might answer many arguments. Although We would need to figure out insurance and other things first.
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#45
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Since I dug out kg/hp data for GTS and 951S for other thread here's ROW model comparison between 964T, 928 GTS etc.
Not bad list at all from 928 point of view. I think many times people tend to forget 928 has more hp than many other period models and this helps even though 928 weighs 100-200 kg more. Lighter car is more it suffers when US equipment is added. If US order changes in some way most likely 928's will go higher at the list. Raw numbers don't tell whole story but who can say 928 has bad suspension design or brakes compared to other period Porsches?
Code:
Model Year CC HP KG KG/HV --------------------------------------------- 964 Turbo 3.6 1993 3.6 360 1470 4.08 968 Turbo S 1993-94 3.0 305 1300 4.26 911 Turbo 3.3 1985-89 3.3 300 1335 4.45 964 Turbo 3.3 1991-92 3.3 320 1470 4.59 928 CS 1988-89 5 320 1480 4.63 928 GTS 1992-95 5.4 350 1620 4.63 928 GT 1989-91 5 330 1580 4.79 928 S 1980-83 4.7 300 1450 4.83 928 S 1984 4.7 310 1500 4.84 928 S 1985-86 4.7 310 1530 4.94 928 S4 1987-91 5 320 1580 4.94 944 Turbo 1989-91 2.5 250 1280 5.12 944 Turbo S 1988 2.5 250 1280 5.12 968 1992-95 3.0 240 1370 5.71 968 Cabrio 1992-95 3.0 240 1440 6.00 928 1978-82 4.5 240 1450 6.04 944 S2 1989-91 3.0 211 1340 6.35 944 S2 Cabrio 1989-91 3.0 211 1390 6.59