MGW-Fla

Swaybar> "You are so fortunate! How did you score a gig like that?? "

Brumos Porsche automatically sends all their customers to a "Driver's Familiarization" session when you buy a car from them. Now its held at the Gainesville Raceway. When I did it back when, it was at Robeling Road. They put you up in a hotel the night beforehand. Feed you diner, have a tech session with Haywood. Then the next day you spend the whole day learning about your car & how to drive it. They were maybe a dozen people split up in groups of 3 or 4. You were paired with an instructor, with me being fortunate that I was in Haywood's group. I remember one of the other instructors was an ex-cop who trained cops in high speed driving techniques. He now runs Gainesville Raceway. He drove me around in my 911 a few laps at the end of the day too. I paid like $85 for my then 12 year old son to go along too.

Funniest part of the whole event was at the end when everyone got the two hot laps with Haywood. There was this old couple, looked like 80+ years each, that had a brand spanking new 911!! As if that wasnt ironic enough, when it came time for each of them to take the hot laps with Haywood, I would of sworn neither would want to go, much less survive without having a cardiac!! That smile on that granny's face when she came outta that race car was classic, I wish I would of taken her picture! Another interesting memory was how even though the passenger seat had a five point harness, Haywood drove so aggressively that my 12 year old son had a bruise on his outside hip from being thrown sideways in the corners!

Brumos also has offered a driver training program or school that you can pay for that takes you in successive levels up that is open to anyone. Not sure if they are doing that now or not. They call the entire program Brumos University or Brumos U. That is also run by Haywood too. Here's a link: http://www.brumosporsche.com/brumosu/about.html

MGW-Fla

Here's a pic of Haywood's 1991 911 world champ car we got a ride in.

SwayBar

Excellent story; thanks for sharing!

Boss46

Many times in the mid 80's I did the Frankfurt >Munich blast, both in my 3.0 Carrera, and in the 928. The 911 is quite fatiguing, the 928 totally in its element. However- hustling up and down the Feldberg (mountains NE of Frankfurt) to and fro work (Maurice Rose AAF) the little blue carrera was an absolute joy. If you want an apple get an apple. If you need an orange get an orange.

LaughaC

Thanks for the opinions. I bought my 928 with the TB tensioner light on so I won't drive it much until the parts arrive and I get that squared away.

In the meantime I recenlty discovered an incredible mountain road to one of my clients. It runs the ridge along the ridge of the blue ridge mountians, crossing the peak about mid-point. Trees block the view and there are no visible drop offs, but the curves and inclines are breath-taking in my 911.

The little car gets squirley sometimes if I round a corner and find a surprise waiting form me, but so far I've always managed to counter-steer quickly enough to keep her tail behind my front axle. (knock on wood)

To be fair, it took me about 6 months to really get used to the 911's most extreme handling characteristics (so far), and I look forward to giving my S4 an equal amount of seat time. The smaller size of the 911 has saved me on occasion because I was able to get it almost completely sideways while staying in my own lane. No, I do not condone purposely drifting on public roadways, but when the tail came out on some semi-slick curves I admit that I played a little (to get the feel of the car) before straightening it back out.

My 928 seems so neutrally balanced that I seem to hear all 4 tires howl long before any oversteer is induced. That's a good thing for public roads, along with the ABS that my 911 lacks. If I can my my S4 (Auto) reliable then I will gladly sell my Infiniti daily (traffic) driver.

macreel

2 words... Mark Anderson.

(he gobbles [modern] 911's)

G'luck all.

worf928

An ex-Brumos driver once told me that Brumos started to race-prep a 928 in 1979/80 and was told by Porsche that their road car allocation would be pulled if they continued. Who knows if it is true or not.

If it is, I don't think we would have seen private teams running 928s even if they had been able to outpace 911s with the windows up and A/C on. (Which by the way is what the Brumos driver said they were able to do...)

hacker-pschorr

Well, the guys with "TRG" in the window are a bit trickier.

Any post torsion bar 911 is a good comparison to a 928 as far as handling goes. The early ones? No thank you. That being said, I'm tossing around the idea of a 964 Carrera 4 Cabrio as a winter car (wife then gets a convertible 911 for the summer). I mentioned this idea to a group of 911 junkies at a PCA event recently. Needless to say I was no longer welcome in that converstiaon.

adam928

I think it all depends on what kind of corners we are talking about.

The 911 will always be niftier in really sharp slow corners due to
1. The weight in the back and
2. Lower inertia/weight.

Hell.. a well prepped Golf GTI is faster than a shark if the corner is sharp enough @ My home track "Mittsverigebanan" (Tr.Mid Sweden raceway?) GTI cars are generally speaking among the faster cars due to their low inertia and lots of tight bends. If the track has a lot of these bends then brute force wont due much good im afraid. I will probably never be as quick as some of the 911s or GTIs on this track coming out of the shikane for instance.

Faster tracks and turns is a different thing though... The brute force in the 928 gives an advantage as well as the well balanced weight. I actually like the "high intertia feeling" when driving really fast through fast bends. It makes the car easy to control and to balance with the throttle.

I also believe that the shark has way better high speed stability and possibly also braking stability (weissach, engine in front etc).

All in all I vote for the 928

JEC_31

I threw my vote into the "weight penalty" category, based on simple physics.

My first real sportscar was an '85 RX-7, and it handled very well despite hopelessly outdated and numb-feeling recirculating ball steering as well as a design-flawed rear suspension (live axle with binding Panhard setup). Why? It was light as a feather.

I only had a 928 (bone stock '86 auto) for a short time, never tracked it or even took a corner at more than 5/10ths. Despite the amazing braking I still felt the weight during driving it and I never built up the familiarity and confidence necessary for hard cornering.

If and when I do obtain another 928 to have fun with, I will be putting it on a severe diet along with kidney-hammering suspension mods.

This is turning out to be a great thread, lots of excellent reading.

IcemanG17

Worf
Very interesting.....you gotta wonder with all the success Anderson/Kibort have had racing the 928 @ 20 years old....what it would have done 20 years ago racing against similar aged cars..... Sure there are modern cars today that might be faster around a racetrack....but how much slower was that car 20 years ago?? I always will believe that if Porsche raced the 928 to its potential starting in the late 70's......or even built a 5.0L 300hp V8 to start with....911's would have died long ago & a new version 928 would be Porsches main car......oh well

Back to the 911's handling...here is a link to the Ruf Yellow Bird at the ring.....it seems so odd to jerk the wheel BEFORE the corner to start it sliding....slide through the corner.....& repeat......looks cool though

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7475&q=porsche

drnick

the 928 has really exploitable handling. i cant comment on the 911 as ive never driven one, ive been in them though (much less room in the back, 928 rear seat passengers shouldnt ever complain!) but the 928 can handle really, really well - even standard. the 928 as standard lacked fatory commitment to fashion it into a true track tool, but its not hard to do. ive enjoyed morphing my 86 into a more sporty version progressively and as such ive had the benefit of seeing what the incremental changes such as shocks, springs, bushes etc bring. others have stated that the first step is to send it on a diet! its easier if the car is less plush on the inside to begin but hard to do if its got full leather! if the end goal is handling then it must be done. then the next step is springs and shocks, i will be getting leda ajustables as my next step along with stiffer springs (currently 550/350). updating the roll bars is also good.

others are more qualified to comment but i agree, mark k has an essentialy stock 928 plus cage and suspension, minus interior, plus exhaust and he is competitive with current models. to me this says that the 928 has the potential to run rings round an old 911! getting into a 911 from the day is so agricultural compared to the 928, it was a far more modern car in every sense

Jim bailey - 928 International

The early 911 has an 89.25 inch (87 on the very early) wheelbase and weighed 2200-2500 lbs , the 98.43 inch 928 wheelbase and 1,000 more lbs makes them two very different cars. The Ferrari Scaglietti sits on a 116 inch wheelbase at over 4,000 lbs as I recall . Ferrari did that to get 55% of the weight on the rear axle but 60% rear bias is "ideal". The 50/50 is just better than old big block Mustangs with maybe 60% front axle 40 % rear So the light short wheelbase car turns tight corners better and the longer wheel base car is more stable at speed and heavier cars feel more solid. Makes no difference if it is 911,928, or Scag...but when it comes to corners lighter is ALWAYS better.

cobalt

With enough money spent any car can be made to handle.

From pesonal experiances I have to vote for the 911. Numerous run ins with 928's while I was driving my 911 (old Torsion bar model) even against cars as new as GT's left them far behind on very twisty roads. The 928 is very capable in the turns. But in stock form the weight and setup is just not condusive to a series of constant weight transfering turns the way the 911 is.

I modified my GTS with Bilstein sport shocks and 928 specialist sways. Handles superbly. My 911 turbo has only improved springs and shocks. On average I find that when entering a single turn the 928 does almost as well as the 911, however when throwing it into a series of turns the 911 will just walk away. Ironically the 944 athough not very powerful and almost as heavy as the 911 will carry more speed at its limit much easier than either. I modified the 944 with factory M030 suspension and this is enough to make a major improvement.

I will say that where the 928 and 944 can be easily brought to their limits and feel comfortable doing it. The 911 on the other hand at the same speed feels like it is at its limit but has much more left in it that only a more experianced 911 driver can extract. But that extra is what makes the 911 hard to beat.

That said I am sure a 928 gutted and properly set up is a great foundation for a very well balanced car that can hold its own against most anything and then it is up to the driver to extract its potential.

928SS

like others have said - just depends on the track/situation.. at a recent willow springs AX, my old gal easily placed in the top 1/3 overall and stomped lots of newer pcars too... but at a recent parking lot event, we got killed by every stinking 914 and 911 w/160hp that was there - even by a friggin rental car POS!!! 430hp, big brakes, sticky tires, upgraded suspension all ment squat w/a wheelbase like the USS enterprise and 3500lbs when on a "go kart" course.

needless to say, I can't wait till another willow or big track event for some payback