Red Light Camera - Busted!
04-20-2006, 05:51 PM
#106
Captain Obvious
Super User
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Originally Posted by bigs
Nuther thought from the peanut gallery here...
If it's all about intersection safety, how 'bout keeping all lights red for a couple of seconds?
In other words, when my light turns red, engineer the lights so the cross traffic light doesn't turn green for two whole seconds. One would think that would allow the intersection to clear and avoid T-bones. That would seem to be a rather simple solution to the safety issue.
If it's all about intersection safety, how 'bout keeping all lights red for a couple of seconds?
In other words, when my light turns red, engineer the lights so the cross traffic light doesn't turn green for two whole seconds. One would think that would allow the intersection to clear and avoid T-bones. That would seem to be a rather simple solution to the safety issue.
I don’t have any beef with anyone on here, and there is no need for personal attacks. Let’s keep this on a professional level. I'm trying to explain why certain things are done in the traffic field, and in return I get slammed. That doesn’t bother me that much cause that‘s part of the job. Traffic management is a complex process and more often than not citizens have the idea that they know what needs to be done to fix their issues. Most of the times this can be accommodated with some compromise, but there are the ones that know very little about this field, yet insist that what we do is not right and they know exactly how certain problems (usually to only benefit them and no one else) should be solved. It takes a little bit more effort to make them understand and educate on how and why certain traffic parameters are set. Traffic management is a process of compromises, after all there is only 60 sec. in a min and we can only do so much with the time we have available.
P.S. I’m not sure where all of a sudden this Canadian Socialist thing comes from, but if that’s what it is, I’ll take it any day over anything lese. It can’t be that bad if Canada is ranked ahead of the US in standard of living. I’ve experienced both the US and the Canadian system and I prefer what we have here.
04-20-2006, 05:56 PM
#108
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From Nicole's excellent link..."When the City of Mesa, Arizona, due to complaints from its citizens, increased its left-turn yellows from three seconds to four, the number of left-turn violators dropped to 1/3 (or less) of what it had been, and the number has stayed down in the years since the change. (Flipping the numbers over, we would expect that if Mesa re-set those yellows back to three seconds, there would be a three-fold increase of violations.)..." The whole deal is pretty much a setup find a busy poorly designed intersection where it takes time to clear the intersection set the yellow at the minimum 3 seconds and roll the cameras. The Mesa example of ADDING one second more of yellow and now only one third the tickets shows how the vast majority of the "criminals" ticketed 2/3 rds were in violation for LESS THAN one second. I would venture to say that a live officer standing observing the light and traffic flow would be hard pressed to make accurate observations of 1 second violations. Human reaction times are simply not that quick especially when on a sugar rush......
04-20-2006, 06:26 PM
#109
Range Master
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ImoOOO, I guess your patronizing comments were directed at me......save it slick, I ain't buying it. You aren't gonna badger, bully or belittle me into your socialist hog wash.
You sound like a slick talkin' Jim Jones, peddeling your version of kool aid.......That is not a personal attack.....so don't take it that way. You are trying to justify your views of controling civil behavior, defining an evil (that you make a living from), behavior you don't like and meting out punishments of your choosing. You are a slick talkin' judge, jury and executioner. I don't trust your type as far as I can throw you. You are an "expert" on the subject because you personally benefit financially from your "toll mechanism"......some Expert.
I just do not like buearucrats doing my thinking for me.....and for you to deny that Canada's society, as legislated by your government, is based on socialist values is disingenuous.......... My saying Canada is socialist is not ment as an insult to you, or your country, it is ment as a statement of fact.
You come across as thinking you are the smartest, most moral person in the room.................You sound like a politician, or a plaintiffs bar lawyer......Both types set off instant Bull**** alarms with me. Again, not intended as an insult, just a statement of fact.
I am glad for you, you like living in your country. Everybody should feel that way about their home. I can only hope you folks keep your high taxes and your 'Gubmint gotta wipe everybody's nose, policies to yourself.......we already got enough of those whiners here, and they do not need encouragement.
Otherwise, have a nice day.
You sound like a slick talkin' Jim Jones, peddeling your version of kool aid.......That is not a personal attack.....so don't take it that way. You are trying to justify your views of controling civil behavior, defining an evil (that you make a living from), behavior you don't like and meting out punishments of your choosing. You are a slick talkin' judge, jury and executioner. I don't trust your type as far as I can throw you. You are an "expert" on the subject because you personally benefit financially from your "toll mechanism"......some Expert.
I just do not like buearucrats doing my thinking for me.....and for you to deny that Canada's society, as legislated by your government, is based on socialist values is disingenuous.......... My saying Canada is socialist is not ment as an insult to you, or your country, it is ment as a statement of fact.
You come across as thinking you are the smartest, most moral person in the room.................You sound like a politician, or a plaintiffs bar lawyer......Both types set off instant Bull**** alarms with me. Again, not intended as an insult, just a statement of fact.
I am glad for you, you like living in your country. Everybody should feel that way about their home. I can only hope you folks keep your high taxes and your 'Gubmint gotta wipe everybody's nose, policies to yourself.......we already got enough of those whiners here, and they do not need encouragement.
Otherwise, have a nice day.
Originally Posted by Imo000
You have a valid point and this already exists. At lest here in the "socialist north" does. Minimum requirement is 2 sec. of all red to clear the intersection. This increases if the intersection profile requires it. The problem is that some drivers know this and use it to run the red light.
I don’t have any beef with anyone on here, and there is no need for personal attacks. Let’s keep this on a professional level. I'm trying to explain why certain things are done in the traffic field, and in return I get slammed. That doesn’t bother me that much cause that‘s part of the job. Traffic management is a complex process and more often than not citizens have the idea that they know what needs to be done to fix their issues. Most of the times this can be accommodated with some compromise, but there are the ones that know very little about this field, yet insist that what we do is not right and they know exactly how certain problems (usually to only benefit them and no one else) should be solved. It takes a little bit more effort to make them understand and educate on how and why certain traffic parameters are set. Traffic management is a process of compromises, after all there is only 60 sec. in a min and we can only do so much with the time we have available.
P.S. I’m not sure where all of a sudden this Canadian Socialist thing comes from, but if that’s what it is, I’ll take it any day over anything lese. It can’t be that bad if Canada is ranked ahead of the US in standard of living. I’ve experienced both the US and the Canadian system and I prefer what we have here.
I don’t have any beef with anyone on here, and there is no need for personal attacks. Let’s keep this on a professional level. I'm trying to explain why certain things are done in the traffic field, and in return I get slammed. That doesn’t bother me that much cause that‘s part of the job. Traffic management is a complex process and more often than not citizens have the idea that they know what needs to be done to fix their issues. Most of the times this can be accommodated with some compromise, but there are the ones that know very little about this field, yet insist that what we do is not right and they know exactly how certain problems (usually to only benefit them and no one else) should be solved. It takes a little bit more effort to make them understand and educate on how and why certain traffic parameters are set. Traffic management is a process of compromises, after all there is only 60 sec. in a min and we can only do so much with the time we have available.
P.S. I’m not sure where all of a sudden this Canadian Socialist thing comes from, but if that’s what it is, I’ll take it any day over anything lese. It can’t be that bad if Canada is ranked ahead of the US in standard of living. I’ve experienced both the US and the Canadian system and I prefer what we have here.
04-20-2006, 06:30 PM
#110
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I'm sorry Heinrich, I gots ta get back on this !! I must thank Big Jim for his post. Makes my day !!! Kinda proves a point too, I you don't mind me saying so.
Oh yeah, I wasn't refering to you Heinrich when I said "nuts" ; I was just mumbling about you not letting us have anymore fun.
I have a certain rancor about red lights, having lost a piece of my knee and about $15,000 of my original 914/6 at the hands of a kid who tried to run one by beating the yellow once. I just happened to be in front of him when he decided he could do it. Shortening yellows is a known tactic for increasing revenue at red light camera intersections and also for increasing accidents.
OK, I'll go back in to my cell for awhile.
Oh yeah, I wasn't refering to you Heinrich when I said "nuts" ; I was just mumbling about you not letting us have anymore fun.
I have a certain rancor about red lights, having lost a piece of my knee and about $15,000 of my original 914/6 at the hands of a kid who tried to run one by beating the yellow once. I just happened to be in front of him when he decided he could do it. Shortening yellows is a known tactic for increasing revenue at red light camera intersections and also for increasing accidents. OK, I'll go back in to my cell for awhile.
04-20-2006, 06:43 PM
#111
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I am quite happy living here where there are no red lights, yellow lights and certainly no traffic cameras!!
But then there are no Porsches either!!
But then there are no Porsches either!!
04-20-2006, 09:20 PM
#112
Road Warrior
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yep, they make me feel safer: California: Modesto Cameras Increase Accidents
Half of the red light cameras in Modesto, California have created as much as 81 percent more accidents.
Red light cameras have neither increased safety nor generated as much revenue as expected in Modesto, California. Two out of four camera-equipped intersections have seen an accident increase in the six month period from July to December 2005. In the last nine months of 2005, the devices have issued 1153 citations worth $340 each generating $392,020 in total revenue.
After the state and Redflex, the private Australian contractor that runs the program, took their share of the proceeds, the city was left with no net profit -- a situation the city hopes will change by adding up to six additional cameras. Redflex has absorbed all losses from the program to date, in violation of a California statute mandating that red light camera programs be operated on a flat-rate basis.
A comparison of collision statistics six-months before and six months after cameras were installed shows accidents increased 3 percent from 34 to 35 at Standiford and Sisk. Accidents jumped 81 percent at Oakdale Road and Briggsmore, from 16 to 29. At two other intersections, accidents dropped -- 31 percent at Tully and Standiford and 49 percent at Briggsmore and Precott.
Source: Traffic cameras still in the red (Modesto Bee (CA), 4/18/2006)
san diego has their official govt. PR version though: http://genesis.sannet.gov/infospc/te...fact_sheet.doc
While the system was operational in San Diego the accident rates dropped 44% at each of the monitored intersections and 33% at the surrounding intersections.
Charlotte, North Carolina; 72% reduction in red light violations and a 25% decrease in total accidents at the twenty intersections with red light cameras. Oxnard, California; The red light violation rate was reduced 40% several months after the enforcement program began. At intersections not equipped with red light cameras, there was a 50% reduction rate. San Francisco, California; The number of red light runners dropped by 42% at photo-enforced intersections. Collisions caused by red light running decreased by approximately 10% citywide.
but independent SD traffic engineers are reporting: Figure 2-12 shows that, after photo enforcement, the average RE [rear end] accident rates increased by 62 percent for the enforced movement and by nearly 43 percent for the non-enforced movements, respectively. Photo enforcement resulted in significantly higher RE accident rates at photo-enforced intersections where a THM [through movement] was enforced, especially for the enforced THM movement." ["City of San Diego Enforcement System Review Final Report", PB Farradyne Inc., January 14, 2002, Chapter 2 "Red light Running and Accidents", page 17] (enforcement programs that increase accidents of any type and cause harm to the public in any way are not acceptable as public policy under any circumstance)
http://www.hwysafety.com/nma_rlc_timeline4.htm seems to me that's the way to beat the ticket, and end the whole stupid system.
interestingly, there are lots of studies indicating increasing the yellow duration REDUCES accidents and violations... seems to me cameras are the answer to: how do we raise revenue? not: how do we reduce accidents? just my opinion based on real data.
of course, most traffic citations are issued w/out a corresponding accident. so it kinda seems like an attempt to prevent something that didn't happen, but theoretically could have/maybe... it doesn't take much imagination to see where that could lead. (think thought police, pre-crimes division, etc)...
just revenue generation at it's finest... doesn't mean you won't get fined as long as the laws stand though, so forewarned is forearmed.
PS. nice touch w/the paintball guns and mossburgs gents!! ha! I luv you guys!! too funny!!
Half of the red light cameras in Modesto, California have created as much as 81 percent more accidents.
Red light cameras have neither increased safety nor generated as much revenue as expected in Modesto, California. Two out of four camera-equipped intersections have seen an accident increase in the six month period from July to December 2005. In the last nine months of 2005, the devices have issued 1153 citations worth $340 each generating $392,020 in total revenue.
After the state and Redflex, the private Australian contractor that runs the program, took their share of the proceeds, the city was left with no net profit -- a situation the city hopes will change by adding up to six additional cameras. Redflex has absorbed all losses from the program to date, in violation of a California statute mandating that red light camera programs be operated on a flat-rate basis.
A comparison of collision statistics six-months before and six months after cameras were installed shows accidents increased 3 percent from 34 to 35 at Standiford and Sisk. Accidents jumped 81 percent at Oakdale Road and Briggsmore, from 16 to 29. At two other intersections, accidents dropped -- 31 percent at Tully and Standiford and 49 percent at Briggsmore and Precott.
Source: Traffic cameras still in the red (Modesto Bee (CA), 4/18/2006)
san diego has their official govt. PR version though: http://genesis.sannet.gov/infospc/te...fact_sheet.doc
While the system was operational in San Diego the accident rates dropped 44% at each of the monitored intersections and 33% at the surrounding intersections.
Charlotte, North Carolina; 72% reduction in red light violations and a 25% decrease in total accidents at the twenty intersections with red light cameras. Oxnard, California; The red light violation rate was reduced 40% several months after the enforcement program began. At intersections not equipped with red light cameras, there was a 50% reduction rate. San Francisco, California; The number of red light runners dropped by 42% at photo-enforced intersections. Collisions caused by red light running decreased by approximately 10% citywide.
but independent SD traffic engineers are reporting: Figure 2-12 shows that, after photo enforcement, the average RE [rear end] accident rates increased by 62 percent for the enforced movement and by nearly 43 percent for the non-enforced movements, respectively. Photo enforcement resulted in significantly higher RE accident rates at photo-enforced intersections where a THM [through movement] was enforced, especially for the enforced THM movement." ["City of San Diego Enforcement System Review Final Report", PB Farradyne Inc., January 14, 2002, Chapter 2 "Red light Running and Accidents", page 17] (enforcement programs that increase accidents of any type and cause harm to the public in any way are not acceptable as public policy under any circumstance)
http://www.hwysafety.com/nma_rlc_timeline4.htm seems to me that's the way to beat the ticket, and end the whole stupid system.
interestingly, there are lots of studies indicating increasing the yellow duration REDUCES accidents and violations... seems to me cameras are the answer to: how do we raise revenue? not: how do we reduce accidents? just my opinion based on real data.
of course, most traffic citations are issued w/out a corresponding accident. so it kinda seems like an attempt to prevent something that didn't happen, but theoretically could have/maybe... it doesn't take much imagination to see where that could lead. (think thought police, pre-crimes division, etc)...
just revenue generation at it's finest... doesn't mean you won't get fined as long as the laws stand though, so forewarned is forearmed.
PS. nice touch w/the paintball guns and mossburgs gents!! ha! I luv you guys!! too funny!!
04-21-2006, 01:56 AM
#120
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Originally Posted by Gretch
ImoOOO, I guess your patronizing comments were directed at me......save it slick, I ain't buying it. You aren't gonna badger, bully or belittle me into your socialist hog wash.
You sound like a slick talkin' Jim Jones, peddeling your version of kool aid.......That is not a personal attack.....so don't take it that way. You are trying to justify your views of controling civil behavior, defining an evil (that you make a living from), behavior you don't like and meting out punishments of your choosing. You are a slick talkin' judge, jury and executioner. I don't trust your type as far as I can throw you. You are an "expert" on the subject because you personally benefit financially from your "toll mechanism"......some Expert.
I just do not like buearucrats doing my thinking for me.....and for you to deny that Canada's society, as legislated by your government, is based on socialist values is disingenuous.......... My saying Canada is socialist is not ment as an insult to you, or your country, it is ment as a statement of fact.
You come across as thinking you are the smartest, most moral person in the room.................You sound like a politician, or a plaintiffs bar lawyer......Both types set off instant Bull**** alarms with me. Again, not intended as an insult, just a statement of fact.
I am glad for you, you like living in your country. Everybody should feel that way about their home. I can only hope you folks keep your high taxes and your 'Gubmint gotta wipe everybody's nose, policies to yourself.......we already got enough of those whiners here, and they do not need encouragement.
Otherwise, have a nice day.
You sound like a slick talkin' Jim Jones, peddeling your version of kool aid.......That is not a personal attack.....so don't take it that way. You are trying to justify your views of controling civil behavior, defining an evil (that you make a living from), behavior you don't like and meting out punishments of your choosing. You are a slick talkin' judge, jury and executioner. I don't trust your type as far as I can throw you. You are an "expert" on the subject because you personally benefit financially from your "toll mechanism"......some Expert.
I just do not like buearucrats doing my thinking for me.....and for you to deny that Canada's society, as legislated by your government, is based on socialist values is disingenuous.......... My saying Canada is socialist is not ment as an insult to you, or your country, it is ment as a statement of fact.
You come across as thinking you are the smartest, most moral person in the room.................You sound like a politician, or a plaintiffs bar lawyer......Both types set off instant Bull**** alarms with me. Again, not intended as an insult, just a statement of fact.
I am glad for you, you like living in your country. Everybody should feel that way about their home. I can only hope you folks keep your high taxes and your 'Gubmint gotta wipe everybody's nose, policies to yourself.......we already got enough of those whiners here, and they do not need encouragement.
Otherwise, have a nice day.
Ohhh come on...... I'm not that bad, am I?
