Red Light Camera - Busted!
04-19-2006, 12:47 AM
#16
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Originally Posted by SharkSkin
Great info, Imo000...
Randy, I think they have you over the barrel on this one unless your research turns up a technicality. Proactive measures:
1) Lose the front plate, or put it on a hinge like Ken's. It takes a LOT of $10 no-plate tickets to add up to a camera ticket.
2) Get ahold of an "Opticon"
Randy, I think they have you over the barrel on this one unless your research turns up a technicality. Proactive measures:
1) Lose the front plate, or put it on a hinge like Ken's. It takes a LOT of $10 no-plate tickets to add up to a camera ticket.
2) Get ahold of an "Opticon"
The Opticom or frequency strobes only work on older signal systems. The newer systems have signature recognition capabilities and the strobe (Opticom)will need to emit a certain frequeacy and pattern of strobing light before the system will validate and cycle the lights to green. It's not as easy as a lot of the product advertising states.
Also, every time a signal is forced into "pre-emption" the system will log this in the memory. You do this often enough and the local signals guys will start to monitor the intersection..... soon enough, the offending vehicle will be spotted and the next day the police will be there to wintess this.... then you know what will happend next!
Funny how this morning, I received an email containg a news article about a guy in Colorado that got busted doing exactly this. These "opticoms" were designed to be only used on fire trucks. The reason being is that they are slow, heavy and hard to manouver. They are slow enough that the system will have enough time to cycle the light to green. In a case of a passanger vehicle, this will not work so well. The car being much faster and agile will get to the intersection too fast, befor the system can go through the necesarry safety interwals and cycle the lights to green. This can take anywhere from 12sec. up to 20+, mainly depending on how long the minimum pedestrian phase has to be.
Another thing to consider. When an intersection is forced into pre-emption mode it will throw the entire selction of preogressonally linked signals out of phase. For them to come back into phase might take 3-4 cycles (average cycle is around 90 sec.) and the residual effect will be detremental on the reminding traffic. Especially if it happens in the AM or PM peak periods.
04-19-2006, 01:03 AM
#17
Supercharged
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Back in Michigan - Full time!
Posts: 18,925
Likes: 0
Received 60 Likes
on
34 Posts
Originally Posted by Imo000
I strongly feel that these cameras, if installed properly, will decrease collisions resulted from vehicles running the red light. This issue was proven in the pilot project and therefore the project is in the process of getting a final paroval. If I could only show you how devestating most of the red light running collisions are, you would understand why preventing them is priorty one.
"All children should wear helmets all the time because if you saw some of the head trauma children receive when falling down stairs or slipping in the tub, you'd realize how important it is to save our children. If it could save just one child, it would be worth it. So let's make helmet-wearing mandatory for children during their waking hours."
BULL****! (Not directed at you per se, but rather the institution at large...) Don't give me some crap-*** argument about why you have to restrict my freedoms any further than they already have been. If a cop wants to sit there and hand out tickets, fine, but robot police is crap and in clear violation of our rights. Fortunately I do not live in a state that has these bastard things... yet. But it's only a matter of time. And when they do, I plan on fully implementing your knowledge to thwart any revenue the state may derive from taking my freedoms away. Thank you!
04-19-2006, 01:30 AM
#19
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thank YOU, Andrew.
Consider this fly in the ointment: setting the signal yellows according to the POSTED speed limit is a little strange, unless someone doesn't want to interupt the flow of revenue or has stock in a tow truck company. The signals are supposed to be set according to limits set by traffic engineering studies. The traffic engineers are now saying there are too many intersections in the country to enforce that Federal standard, so they are setting them arbitrarily. How many people follow the POSTED speed limits throughout the day? During rush hours? During off peak periods? Can you see the idiocy here? There is only one correct manner to determine the limit if there is to be a limit. The cities are ignoring that engineering principle. The cities are getting wealthier. Why rock the boat? If the limit on the sign is not set scientifically, what is the difference? If drivers ignore the limit on the sign, what is the difference? The difference is accidents and deaths, unnecessarily. It will get worse, because no one cares enough to contest the system. At least not in sufficiently strong numbers to make a difference. Also bear in mind the legallity of allowing a for-profit operator to set and determine the fines and guilt or innocence of alleged violators. It isn't legal. Period. It is done all the time. So what? WHO CARES?
I'll say that again: WHO CARES? Before you answer consider the cautions posted here about the dangers of being caught in an intersection when the light turns green in the other direction. Then consider what Bigs said about setting yellow lights shorter deliberately. WHO CARES???
Randy, I shall send you a PM. This subject came up today and was discussed by an expert to whom I shall refer you.
Consider this fly in the ointment: setting the signal yellows according to the POSTED speed limit is a little strange, unless someone doesn't want to interupt the flow of revenue or has stock in a tow truck company. The signals are supposed to be set according to limits set by traffic engineering studies. The traffic engineers are now saying there are too many intersections in the country to enforce that Federal standard, so they are setting them arbitrarily. How many people follow the POSTED speed limits throughout the day? During rush hours? During off peak periods? Can you see the idiocy here? There is only one correct manner to determine the limit if there is to be a limit. The cities are ignoring that engineering principle. The cities are getting wealthier. Why rock the boat? If the limit on the sign is not set scientifically, what is the difference? If drivers ignore the limit on the sign, what is the difference? The difference is accidents and deaths, unnecessarily. It will get worse, because no one cares enough to contest the system. At least not in sufficiently strong numbers to make a difference. Also bear in mind the legallity of allowing a for-profit operator to set and determine the fines and guilt or innocence of alleged violators. It isn't legal. Period. It is done all the time. So what? WHO CARES?
I'll say that again: WHO CARES? Before you answer consider the cautions posted here about the dangers of being caught in an intersection when the light turns green in the other direction. Then consider what Bigs said about setting yellow lights shorter deliberately. WHO CARES???
Randy, I shall send you a PM. This subject came up today and was discussed by an expert to whom I shall refer you.
04-19-2006, 01:34 AM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Not close enough to VIR.
Posts: 9,429
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Originally Posted by Imo000
I strongly feel that these cameras, if installed properly, will decrease collisions resulted from vehicles running the red light.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/news.asp?ID=117
Virginia DOT Study Shows Cameras Increase Injury Accidents
The Virginia Transportation Research Council studied all of the state red light camera programs and found an overall increase in injury accidents.
Virginia DOTA brand new, exhaustive study of all seven Virginia red light camera programs shows an overall increase in injury accidents has occurred where the devices are installed. The study was performed by The Virginia Transportation Research Council at the request of the state transportation secretary. The report also notes a fatal flaw in the Virginia's camera law -- motorists can ignore any ticket received in the mail. Only tickets that are personally served matter (the same thing happened in Arizona).
Despite a distinct sympathy in favor of camera enforcement, the researchers found a "definite" increase in rear-end accidents and only a "possible" decrease in angle accidents. Most importantly, the net effect was that more injuries happened after cameras are installed. Camera proponents explain this away by asserting angle accidents are more serious, but this claim has not been scientifically studied according to this report. The rear end collisions caused by the cameras still produce injuries -- the original promise of camera proponents was that they would reduce accidents and injuries, not rearrange them.
This study agrees with long-term findings in Australia and North Carolina.
The Virginia Transportation Research Council studied all of the state red light camera programs and found an overall increase in injury accidents.
Virginia DOTA brand new, exhaustive study of all seven Virginia red light camera programs shows an overall increase in injury accidents has occurred where the devices are installed. The study was performed by The Virginia Transportation Research Council at the request of the state transportation secretary. The report also notes a fatal flaw in the Virginia's camera law -- motorists can ignore any ticket received in the mail. Only tickets that are personally served matter (the same thing happened in Arizona).
Despite a distinct sympathy in favor of camera enforcement, the researchers found a "definite" increase in rear-end accidents and only a "possible" decrease in angle accidents. Most importantly, the net effect was that more injuries happened after cameras are installed. Camera proponents explain this away by asserting angle accidents are more serious, but this claim has not been scientifically studied according to this report. The rear end collisions caused by the cameras still produce injuries -- the original promise of camera proponents was that they would reduce accidents and injuries, not rearrange them.
This study agrees with long-term findings in Australia and North Carolina.
04-19-2006, 02:09 AM
#23
Drifting
"Despite a distinct sympathy in favor of camera enforcement, the researchers found a "definite" increase in rear-end accidents and only a "possible" decrease in angle accidents. Most importantly, the net effect was that more injuries happened after cameras are installed."
I suspect that this is quite likely in the short term, but I doubt it's true long term. Of course I have no evidence to back this up.
I suspect that this is quite likely in the short term, but I doubt it's true long term. Of course I have no evidence to back this up.
04-19-2006, 02:57 AM
#24
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
DAMN ... nice and selfess post Imo 
... I agree. I personally have a real beef with red light runners (of which Randy isn't one of course). I've seen horrible things right in front of me from red light runners ... a car was tossed right on top of my BMW years ago. I am so careful at intersections, I almost stop just to make sure it's safe.
... I agree. I personally have a real beef with red light runners (of which Randy isn't one of course). I've seen horrible things right in front of me from red light runners ... a car was tossed right on top of my BMW years ago. I am so careful at intersections, I almost stop just to make sure it's safe.
Originally Posted by Imo000
There are some valid and some not so valid comments on the red light camera issue. I'm a Traffic Analyst in the Signals & Systems group for one of Toronto's Regional Municipalities. We are one of the many parties that were involved in the red light camara pilot project in the province of Ontario. I can give you several pointers on how you might be able to argue this ticket. But before I do that, let me express my personal feelings on this issue. Running a red light on purpose is inexusable. I strongly feel that these cameras, if installed properly, will decrease collisions resulted from vehicles running the red light. This issue was proven in the pilot project and therefore the project is in the process of getting a final paroval. If I could only show you how devestating most of the red light running collisions are, you would understand why preventing them is priorty one. Most of these collisions are relative high speed, right angle impacts. In majority of the cases, one of the vehicles being impacted on the driver side. Angled collisions like these are extremly dangerous and often fatal. I always know when looking at a collision report if anyone died or not. If the report is typed with a typewriter, the box under "injury" will have at least one with a number 4 (4=fatility) next to it and the coroner's box will contain the Dr's. If you ran the red light and the road/weather conditions were normal, please learn from this and never, ever do it again.
Now let me help you with some of the parameters that you need to check. As other mentioned, the Amber Phase (Yellow Light), is determined by the width of the intersection, posted speed limit and geometrical aligment (both vertical and horizontal) of the road. You can contact the local municipality or county depending on who's jurisdiciton the intersection is under and ask for them to give you the required information. The width of the crossing intersection is measured from the stop bar, to the far edge (curbe line) of the intersection plus a legth of the "design vehicle" (usually a passanger car). Essentially the distance that the vehicle has to travel, plus the vehicle's length (to clear the rear bumper from the travelled section of the road). Using this distance and the speed limit at the intersection, will make calculating of the amber interval fairly easy (distnace over time). Since signal timing phases change throughout the day, make sure you ask for the lenght of the amber and "all red" interval from the municipality/county for the exact time the offence was commited. All red is the interval where all the aproaching signals are red( to clear the intersection of any remaining vehicles. The minimum is 2 sec. in Ontario and will be more if the intersection is large.
By law, they have to have this on file, including a ldrawing with a leagal, aproved and signed copy of the intersection as it exists today. They might or might not charge your for this information (that is up to them) but by law they need to make this information available for you (fredom of information act). You can also ask if the traffic signal controllerand has the maitnance up to date, if the log book has anything noted as faulty at the time in question, or if the system log has anything unusually for that time (this all will be avaible but you'll probalby have to pay of the data.). Teh camara will have simillar logs too. Also, in Ontario the red light cameras can not be digital. They wouldn't be admissable in court. You might want to check on this too, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't make a mistake like this. You also might want to ask from them how the camera is triggered. Usually it's a combination of two inductive (magnetic) vehicle detection loops spaced at a set disntance and the combination of another form of vehicle detection (infrared, radar, microwave, video, etc.).
If you can find anythng that is out of the norm, make sure to use it in your defence. Hire a good lawyer that knows the ins and outs of the red light camera system.......or just pay the fine and learn the lesson.
By the way, in Ontario, a red light violation ticket will not go on the record of the driver or the owner of the vehicle but, if you don't pay it, you will not be able to register the car the following year. You might want to look into this as well.
I hope this helps and good luck!
Now let me help you with some of the parameters that you need to check. As other mentioned, the Amber Phase (Yellow Light), is determined by the width of the intersection, posted speed limit and geometrical aligment (both vertical and horizontal) of the road. You can contact the local municipality or county depending on who's jurisdiciton the intersection is under and ask for them to give you the required information. The width of the crossing intersection is measured from the stop bar, to the far edge (curbe line) of the intersection plus a legth of the "design vehicle" (usually a passanger car). Essentially the distance that the vehicle has to travel, plus the vehicle's length (to clear the rear bumper from the travelled section of the road). Using this distance and the speed limit at the intersection, will make calculating of the amber interval fairly easy (distnace over time). Since signal timing phases change throughout the day, make sure you ask for the lenght of the amber and "all red" interval from the municipality/county for the exact time the offence was commited. All red is the interval where all the aproaching signals are red( to clear the intersection of any remaining vehicles. The minimum is 2 sec. in Ontario and will be more if the intersection is large.
By law, they have to have this on file, including a ldrawing with a leagal, aproved and signed copy of the intersection as it exists today. They might or might not charge your for this information (that is up to them) but by law they need to make this information available for you (fredom of information act). You can also ask if the traffic signal controllerand has the maitnance up to date, if the log book has anything noted as faulty at the time in question, or if the system log has anything unusually for that time (this all will be avaible but you'll probalby have to pay of the data.). Teh camara will have simillar logs too. Also, in Ontario the red light cameras can not be digital. They wouldn't be admissable in court. You might want to check on this too, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't make a mistake like this. You also might want to ask from them how the camera is triggered. Usually it's a combination of two inductive (magnetic) vehicle detection loops spaced at a set disntance and the combination of another form of vehicle detection (infrared, radar, microwave, video, etc.).
If you can find anythng that is out of the norm, make sure to use it in your defence. Hire a good lawyer that knows the ins and outs of the red light camera system.......or just pay the fine and learn the lesson.
By the way, in Ontario, a red light violation ticket will not go on the record of the driver or the owner of the vehicle but, if you don't pay it, you will not be able to register the car the following year. You might want to look into this as well.
I hope this helps and good luck!
04-19-2006, 03:41 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Imo000
How about this for number 3) DON'T RUN ANY MORE RED LIGHTS ( who knows, you might save a life).
or something.But I do object to camera surveillance/enforcement in general and the plate idea helps mitigate that. Radar is fickle and unreliable in the hands of a trained operator, I don't think anyone should be convicted on the basis of evidence gathered by a trained trailer. People get the idea that either or both of those methods of measuring speed work right all the time, and that's not the truth.
I would argue that if there is a lot of red-light running at a particular intersection then there is something wrong with the design of the traffic control system. IMHO putting a red light camera up in such a place is saying, "Oh well, this is going to happen, we might as well make money off of it." There's an intersection near work that seemed to have an overturned car at least once a month until they re-sequenced the lights. It seemed that most of the accidents involved someone running a light and t-boning someone else. I can show the change if you're interested. Now it's been a while since I've seen any accident there. Someone with a modicum of intelligence made the effort to fix the problem that led to red light running in the first place, rather than throw a cash machine at it.
04-19-2006, 03:52 AM
#26
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Allright Sharkskin, that's enough of that kind of talk. Do you realize what you are asking? Do you think it is possible? Or likely pervasive? And do you really know who you are proposing to put out of work by such thoughts? Are you some kind of left wing intellectual or something? What if such ideas had been implemented while you were a tow truck operator and still in school? No work = no school = no more intellectualizing. 
Sometimes you must break eggs to make an omelette, right? The problem comes when the eggs are in my front seat. I guess I will be forced to agree with you. 
Sometimes you must break eggs to make an omelette, right? The problem comes when the eggs are in my front seat.
I guess I will be forced to agree with you.
04-19-2006, 04:40 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
Funny, Ron... I think you know the place I'm talking about, I'm sure that it was initially an experiment to see if three dyslexic left-handed monkeys could set up the traffic control for this series of intersections:
04-19-2006, 05:06 AM
#28
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I didn't know about that intersection. Got to be careful around there I guess.
But you say the problem was solved by engineering judgement. Amazing. Will wonders ever cease??
But you say the problem was solved by engineering judgement. Amazing. Will wonders ever cease??
04-19-2006, 05:06 AM
#29
Racer
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Denmark you can flash your headlights and it will turn from red to green. I've tried it a few times. It worked , or maybee I was just lucky.... 351 $, even in Denmark that pretty much. But here, if you run a red light, (speed more than 30 %, forget seatbelt, drive to close to someone) 3 times within 3 years you loose yuor driving licence for good.......You then have to take new test etc., and that's like 2000 $...........................................
04-19-2006, 07:23 AM
#30
State Highway Technician laying thermo-plastic stop bars at an intersection see's City Signal crew cutting thin pavement kerfs across 6 lanes and the traffic islands, running cable, snaking wiring on signal support poles. In an effort to prevent the conflict of City crew cutting anymore NEW pavement, let alone 5 minute old pavement markings an impromptu conference takes place: City=C, State=S
S-Whatcha doin? Installin' sensors?
C-Hangin' cameras. Why ja ask?
S-Traffic cameras? Did you spec it out with Highway dept?
C-No, the signals belong to the city, so we don't have to.
S-Sort of... We built the road, the bridge, islands, all signage, layed the utility infrastructure on all the right of ways...you guys just maintian the lights due to City traffic flow reqiuements we own them. If they are modified or you cut our road we need to know so we can confirm spec. and change the as builts.
C-Bullsh#t, these are City streets!
S- Betcha, I win your wife gives me a hummer..
C- Fu#k you, Gringo!
S- Look slick, why do you think state crews would maintain City streets?
C-beats me.
S- Look IU gotta call my Boss, no ding on you, but he needs to talk to your boss, gotta number?
While phones, cells, and unit radio's start fireup all work ceases and we shoot the breeze.
The camera units are small, metal, cylindrical, hooded and gimballed/with motor (eh?).
S- Where'd the city get the buck's for these?
C-City Cops shop, and the County Sherrif's office.
S -???*****
C-Yeah, they split fines and the bucks came from Fed/State Public Safety Block Grants.
A couple of points here, moot though they may be.
1. To this day, my maintenance Supervisor, and I cannot convince the Area Engineer, nor, the District Engineer that these are cameras, not sensors.
2. Because of the Funding thru Public Safety by way of Block Grants thru Law Enforcement entities, the City has virtually no control over operations. When this system went active rumor had it that there was a software packge from hell that allowed for data banking and cross referencing, tags,
photo ID -ya gotta drivers licence dont'cha?- time, location, associates - don't be crusing after dark and stop within range of these puppies -gimballed/motorized, remember- let alone B.S. with some friends. Teens in GW's hometown live in a world of ****! PD's say they are looking to reduce gang activity -What gang activity?-thereby protecting the public. They also do a end of the month State Inspection Tag romp, and slow day hammering of those who would dare to drive without seatbelts. Easy Money. Welcome to the income stream.
City is supposedly given oversight/review of tape/cd but City has never assigned committee/members.
Now to the good part.
Randy,
While every major intersection light has a programmed controller for time/sequencing -can be done remotely in some cases- there are RULES.
Most City's in the U.S. get their specs. from their State 'Traffic Control Devices Manual' which is baselined from Federal/State Engineering studies. And yes road speed/posted speed limit directly affects the mandated MINIMUM allowable duration of the yellow/amber light. Find the manual and get the spec. . It's basic do the math stuff: posted speed, reaction time, braking time.
Another thing you might check is if the individual light hoods/shades are/were in place as a missing one would affect visibility sometimes seriously depending on position of light/sun, time of day. weather, and air quality.
If you actually get hold of a manual don't give it to a lawyer. Christ! There is so much wrong with today's highway signage, striping, road markings, reflectivity, spacing, sizing, edge drop-offs, median slopes ...blah, blah, blah that a lawyer could retire 'comfortably' after a year or so of using that manual against anyone involved in an accident or defending traffic violaters,
but you didn't hear this from me....
BTW that state highway worker knows where the main input/output feeds are for the new cameras are...guess what? The feed sites are not in view of the cameras'.
This is my pavement saw.
There are many like it...,
But this one is mine 
S-Whatcha doin? Installin' sensors?
C-Hangin' cameras. Why ja ask?
S-Traffic cameras? Did you spec it out with Highway dept?
C-No, the signals belong to the city, so we don't have to.
S-Sort of... We built the road, the bridge, islands, all signage, layed the utility infrastructure on all the right of ways...you guys just maintian the lights due to City traffic flow reqiuements we own them. If they are modified or you cut our road we need to know so we can confirm spec. and change the as builts.
C-Bullsh#t, these are City streets!
S- Betcha, I win your wife gives me a hummer..
C- Fu#k you, Gringo!
S- Look slick, why do you think state crews would maintain City streets?
C-beats me.
S- Look IU gotta call my Boss, no ding on you, but he needs to talk to your boss, gotta number?
While phones, cells, and unit radio's start fireup all work ceases and we shoot the breeze.
The camera units are small, metal, cylindrical, hooded and gimballed/with motor (eh?).
S- Where'd the city get the buck's for these?
C-City Cops shop, and the County Sherrif's office.
S -???*****
C-Yeah, they split fines and the bucks came from Fed/State Public Safety Block Grants.
A couple of points here, moot though they may be.
1. To this day, my maintenance Supervisor, and I cannot convince the Area Engineer, nor, the District Engineer that these are cameras, not sensors.
2. Because of the Funding thru Public Safety by way of Block Grants thru Law Enforcement entities, the City has virtually no control over operations. When this system went active rumor had it that there was a software packge from hell that allowed for data banking and cross referencing, tags,
photo ID -ya gotta drivers licence dont'cha?- time, location, associates - don't be crusing after dark and stop within range of these puppies -gimballed/motorized, remember- let alone B.S. with some friends. Teens in GW's hometown live in a world of ****! PD's say they are looking to reduce gang activity -What gang activity?-thereby protecting the public. They also do a end of the month State Inspection Tag romp, and slow day hammering of those who would dare to drive without seatbelts. Easy Money. Welcome to the income stream.
City is supposedly given oversight/review of tape/cd but City has never assigned committee/members.
Now to the good part.
Randy,
While every major intersection light has a programmed controller for time/sequencing -can be done remotely in some cases- there are RULES.
Most City's in the U.S. get their specs. from their State 'Traffic Control Devices Manual' which is baselined from Federal/State Engineering studies. And yes road speed/posted speed limit directly affects the mandated MINIMUM allowable duration of the yellow/amber light. Find the manual and get the spec. . It's basic do the math stuff: posted speed, reaction time, braking time.
Another thing you might check is if the individual light hoods/shades are/were in place as a missing one would affect visibility sometimes seriously depending on position of light/sun, time of day. weather, and air quality.
If you actually get hold of a manual don't give it to a lawyer. Christ! There is so much wrong with today's highway signage, striping, road markings, reflectivity, spacing, sizing, edge drop-offs, median slopes ...blah, blah, blah that a lawyer could retire 'comfortably' after a year or so of using that manual against anyone involved in an accident or defending traffic violaters
,but you didn't hear this from me....
BTW that state highway worker knows where the main input/output feeds are for the new cameras are...guess what? The feed sites are not in view of the cameras'.
This is my pavement saw.
There are many like it...,
But this one is mine