Louie928

Mike,
Looks to me that you already have your mind made up. However, I have noticed a common thread of action in folks who want a track car they can drive on the street and take girls out, etc....

Very soon after getting on the track and the car is "almost" good enough, they start looking around for what can be done to make it better. Removing weight is the best horsepower obtainable so out goes the HVAC system, comfy seats are gone, anything with an electric motor that isn't necessary for operating the car is gone too, sound deadening gone, stereo is in the trash, lexan windows appear, and the list goes on.

About a month after you get that killer car for the track, grocery getter, and to score with chicks, no female without grease under her fingernails will go near it. If you have a GF with grease under her fingernails, you better think about a dedicated track car for her too.

Just my observations. I'm pretty sure Dean's car is street legal and while not an S4, has all the important upgrades necessary. I think it has the 2.75 final drive which S4's don't have without spending more $$.

A Subaru WRX with some performance upgrades is hard to beat for a daily driver/track car. Maybe more money than you want to spend.

mspiegle

At the same time this thread has been progressing, i've had a heated discussion with my M3 friend about the 928 vs E36M3. We can't come to a conclusion due to the data and variables, but I have concluded that a 928 should be a better car for me than an E30 M3.

I think the main thing about Dean's car is that its already modified. I'm one of those guys who takes a gret deal of pride in his own work and accomplishments (as i'm sure Dean is too), but when I pass up some E36 M3s on the track (shh, don't tell anyone I said that), I want to be able to say "Yes, I am the driver AND the mechanic".

You better be careful there Louie... I was VERY close to buying a brand new STI mainly because financing would be 10x easier than an older 928. In the end, I concluded that it wasn't what I REALLY wanted, and a 928 is a much cooler/rarer/faster/better/etc car.

cdbtx

Go to the Portland raceways website and look at past racing results to see Dean Krenz's time.. Pretty respectable when you compare them to the competition. Try to build his car for less than $40-$50K... I'm $36K into mine and it's nothing more than a fun to drive track car (so far). It's an addiction once you get started..


Chuck

83 Kiln Red 928S

mark kibort

In 1999 anderson ran a 1:40.xx at laguna on DOTs at a SpeedGT race in his 6.5 liter, he now regularly visits 1:35.xx (on the same tires) , but with 480rwhp, and all sorts of suspension mods.

in 2002-3 when speed gt made us run a true street tire, the fastest cars were 1:40, while i pulled back to 1:46.xx and anderson was in the mid 1:42s

the only other racer in a 928 that has hit Laguna or the california circut is Dean Krenz, and he was in the 1:44s at the 2003 PCA event, while the other , Joe Fan, runs very close to mark anderson, with a similar HP car.( 500rwhp!).
Don Hanson ran 1:39.7 in our PCA race together with his 6.5 liter and on slicks, with a best weekend time of 1:38ish. I think the way Dennis K. is driving now, he would be in the 1:44-45s now as well, and that is more of a street car! that car was going to be a replacement for my 84 part euro 5 liter, until i found the holbert S4. that part euro 84 with the 5 liter '85 engine, ran 1:42.xx at laguna . yes, 928s can run fast there.
1:49.2 at Sears Point too!! Mark Andersons first time at Sears with Speedvision in 2000, he ran 1:52.xx,, later 1:44s now he visits the track and runs 1:39.9!!!!! (smok'in time by the way!) no BMW or porsche has got anything on that 928

there is a 928 for sale you can have today and after a weekend of strippin weight out of it, and bolting on some parts, you could be DEing or even racing. (got to put the cage or roll bar in ) Its a 1985 928S, with easily 260+ rwhp, and its bone stock. there are no e30s that would be able to touch it at the track, and it would be a heck of a lot more comfortable than ANY e30 M3.

As louie mentioned, you get a car like this for $10k, wheels, tires, suspension upgrade, swap out the seats, lightweight battery,and pull out any of the insulation you think you could live without. you are suddenly in the 3150 lb range. about the same weight as some racers in Grand Am Cup today! at that near 3000lb range, there is no problem racing against e30s, stockish older 911s, etc. in fact the 1985 928 matches up better with the 1995 e36 with its stock 240flywheel hp. the car that matches to the e30 is the older 1984 4.7 liter 240hp 928 after it is lightened a bit. you go to 1987 and an S4, and you better start looking at 2000 Z06/M3s corvettes to be able to keep up with similar mods. the 928 can be fitted with a cheap suspension. ($1000 eibachs and konis) you cut the springs one coil and you have a good street car and weekend racer. after that, its wheels and tires and you are ready to go.
later, when you get the bug worse, you bolt in the roll bar or cage, now you pull more weight out of it and put a set of headers and exhaust on it and you are ready to race. and trust me, at a fraction of what an e30 would ever cost. e30s are in the 185 to 195rwhp on their best days! if you start talking about engine mods and strokers, well, you know the 928 answer to that!

Mk

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net

> At the same time this thread has been progressing, i've had a heated discussion
> with my M3 friend about the 928 vs E36M3

What are you trying to compare? I have both, and have tracked both in stock form, as well as track prepared form.

mspiegle

Well, my friend coudln't see how a 928 (not made for the track) could be better than an M3 (somewhat more track-oriented).

We had no way to make an apples-to-apples comparison, so I told him to find an E36 M3 that goes around Laguna Seca faster than MK's 928 with two handicaps - stock engine internals, and relatively stock suspension. He couldn't find a time to compete, but says that if both cars were in bone stock form, the M3 *should* win.

After not being able to find times, he concluded that Mark Kibort must be a better driver than every other E36 M3 driver out there. After that, things progressed to the 928 having an unfair advantage because of coilovers so I said "Well, what does that matter - the 928 wasn't made for the track... right? Why didn't BMW think to put more track-oriented suspension in the car?".

I think at this point, it wasn't about the cars and he was picking on my grammar/word-choice of saying the 928 is a "better" car (apparently too vague of a word), so I dropped the discussion. Working with your best friend all day (sitting right next to him) definately allows for some interesting discussions on differing ideas...

We settled on going our separate ways, but switching cars in a year or 2 to see what each of us thought of the other car.

Edit: I also started talking about the advanced suspension geometry of the 928 and that the 928 should be a more stable high-speed car than the E36 M3, but he wouldn't buy either of those either.

mark kibort

bottom line, (my opinion) M3 e30 is like a 1984 928, with more upside due to its lighter weight when getting it more track prepared.

M3 e36 is more like a 1986-7 928, but even though the M3 will always be near 200lbs lighter, the S4 or 85 928 will have more upside advantages. when the e36 guys start comparing the "euro " version (stock 333 flywheel rated hp), then you can start comparing that to a GT or GTS. Again, no comparison. so , apples to apples. the S4 will be a better car, no question, especially to a little e30!
high end upside capabilities, definitely favor the S4. dual purpose, again, s4. Now, if you want to get a much cheaper US 84, then the M3 e30 may have some advantages, none are too much for even it to overcome. apples to apples. the biggest disadvantage, as that the 928 in bone stock form, came with joke tires and wheels. put on "normal" sized wheels, even ones that were stock for the much smaller 944, and you see that the car suddenly gets its handling back to the levels of an e30. at a minimum, 7.5" front 9" rears. ideal 9s and 9s, best 9.5s and 11s . have you seen what you have to do with an e30 to get even small tires like a 245 on all 4 corners? its beyond rolling the fenders

the ONLY thing better about the e30 is the classes you can race and tiime trial in with BMWCCA.
PCA has their heads ......, you know, when it comes to classing a 928.

MK

mspiegle

I agree with your comparison of S vs e30, S4 vs e36, gt(s) vs e36-euro. That really does make it closer to an apples/apples comparison.

regarding your tire comment, isn't the necessary width of tire directly proportional to the weight of the car? Isn't it important to conserve a proper weight-per-surface area?

One of these days, i'm gonna get down to a track and watch you and anderson make monkies of the "modern" cars

IcemanG17

Heres another option

http://eaglesledge.com/cars.htm

Complete racecar ready to got for about $18K USA.....spare everything including engines!! Sure its techincally an OB...but change the bumper (included) & its an S4.....I wonder what kind of times this car would do with MK or Dennis driving around laguna-infineon or Thunderhill?

mark kibort

It always is kind of a harsh argument, when we are all so biased to the 928. The M3 is a great car and platform. 928 has so much potential, and thats why it works for me, and its relatively cheap to run and race.

I think what your friend is talking about equates to e30 JS class in BMWCCA. ("J stock") at laguna, the range of really good drivers go from 1:45 to 1:48. the cars set up with little restrictions, are the CM and DM (e36/e30) these cars in DM run right with me, and like we saw last year, some ran quite a bit faster on real slicks, but very close on DOTs. Again, they are much more expensive cars and TONS of work in preparation. my car was a bolt on, and go racing affair. I literally was able to prep my car in a weekend and havent touched it since in any major way (excuding my water pump and cam debacles)

so, the question, could a JS e30 running 1:45 with one of the better drivers beat a S4 with similar prep. I think bone stock, yes. but we are talking about classes made from manufacturer specs, so no wheel changes, but suspension upgrades are ok. with 225s on all 4 corners, the 928 is a mess, ill admit
but, when talking about keeping the cars stock, but puttin on wheels and suspension components that fit and make the car work as it should, yes, a stock 928 can run 1:46 at laguna. Ive already run 1:45s witih my part euro 4.7 liter and some substantial weight in it. the suspension has always been the devel level 2 street sport suspension cranked to the limit. no mods, just swaybar up front cranked to the limit, and the rear drop link kit. the only changes to my 928 over all the years was going up in power since 1999.
(ie 4.7 part euro , to 5 liter bottomend, then to the holbert car)

again, even my ole' 1979 stock 928 ran 2:10s at thunderhill using my Holbert car wheels and tires. No mods to the car, except a loud exhuast and high flow cat and we gutted it and put in a cage. I think the best JS bmw e30s run 2:08 to 2:10 if i remember correctly. (thunderhilll long track, not usual BMWCCA bypass track like their times reflect on their website)
that 79 928 is near a 30 year old car!!!!!!!

Mk

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net

Important to understand, I am not biased towards either a 928 or an M3. I plan on having both forever.

Did you check times at http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/_upl...005results.pdf

Scott Chan in HP (not under practice) under 1:439 at Laguna Seca. Isn't that faster than MK? And it probbaly is much heavier than MK's lightened 928.

Isn't the real issue here, as I understand it, that you will not pick up chics very often in a car like MK's 928?

Tracks cars don't make good daily drivers, at least not here away from sunny CA

mark kibort

No, scott chan is a guy i use to run neck and neck with my old 4.7 euro US racer. he is running HP, which allows some decent mods. usually, they can run in the 230rwhp range, and they are light, near 2700lbs.

however, scott chan's time was 1:46 at laguna

the fastest guy, Sofronas and Miller are in HOT e36s with Motons and real slicks. those cars when on DOTs run real close to speed GT touring cars, which is exactly where i run and compete. 1:40.2 and 1:40.8 were my times for my last race there. also ran 1:40.2 against Don Hanson, still on used hoosiers, but good ones! (rare!)

No chicks for the Mk 928, for sure. But a sleek S4 , lowered with rims and tires could be eye catching and be real fast!

Mk

ps, if you were talking about jon holder running a 1:40.369 in C-mod, then here is the car below. its hardly anywhere near a street car. 2500lbs and 330-350 rwhp!
anderson just saw this car at the PCA weekend at Vegas. of course, he was running circles around him!
MK

mark kibort

Dean ran at laguna . a respectable 1:44.xx in our race in 2003 i think.

a season more practice out there, and its a 1:42 car. so was mine, (my part euro 5 liter but US Ljet racer) but mine was bare bones cheaper. no real cool upgrades like dean has.

mk

mspiegle

You guys gotta remember, i'm completely new to this whole thing you call "track racing". I'll be learning the basics before I get crazy with any all-out race cars

What's the HP class?

mark kibort

HP is "H" prepared. (kind of like the porsche letters)

there is stock, prepared, modified and super modified.

most common is the e30 running in JS (J stock) or DM (Dmod)
e36 usually run in H prepared or C mod

stock is strict rules for close to stock, and DM is almost anything goes even strokers. prepared is high performance, but you cant put in a plastic rear window for example, yet they are totally gutted.

DM and CM can run slicks if they have the safety equip.

its all confusing!

the whole point of the discussion, is the S4 has a higher upside, faster car that probably will be cheaper to race, run , own. especally compared to a e-30 but more fairly compared to an e36. US


Mk