sjsj

Did Mr Nevada also appear to bump up timing in a NA system to create a power-creating boost in such an cooler more stable combustion environment?
Not sure how it's done on a stock 928 [just have keys, no car], but on others it is a twist of the distribution cap

Lance J

MSPIEGLE tony gave me a ride in his car the 3 week i move here. and yes he did have any detonation with the intercooler on. for him to get denotation he had to turn off his intercooler.

Lance J

didn't have denotation

sjsj

huh? No idea what this means, or the context of the message. Don't mean to offend at all in saying that, though can we be CLEAR on what is being said?

Perhaps answering the following would help here:

" with a naturally aspirated Porsche 928 using water injection, what improvements were noticed in terms of performance and fuel economy?"

Relevant to the answer will be:

- changes in running temperature [ie: at least 10 degrees cooler than stock ]
- changes to timing available [ie: being able to increase it]
- changes to the fuel map at available[ie: change to sync with increased timing]

Cheers
sjsj

Warren928

This is such an informative post about new products. But no one mentioned the hottest product out for teens and their cars. The original FARTCAN ANNOYANATOR.

Yes, for less than $60 you too can enjoy the sweet sound of flagelence with echo effect every time you fire up your porsche. Now all you need is a 12" diameter hole saw to drill through your bumper, because remember- The bigger FARTCAN the better, and the ladies love it that way! Other amazing features: Attract skunks everywhere with the patented fartcan mating call while "driving" the rest of society away, AND gain up to 60% noise and power! Results vary, batteries not included.

Tony

1) how on earth would you measure a 10' change in "RUNNING temperature" using water injection in a NA engine?
a) the water injection would have to run continuosly to change or even remotely change the "RUNNING temperature"
b) you would have to wire up a pretty accurate and quick responding temperature gauge to even see a change in "RUNNING temperature".

Intake temperatures, it may be a different story as well as EGTs?
Running temp, whats that...2nd white line or 1st on my dash?

To be perfectly clear, water injection on avergae will drop the charge temp at the face of my SC by nearly 50-70"f.
On a 120 inlet temp i can see temps of 60.F after the MAF volts trigger the system.
It depends on the OAT, Humidity and the % solution you run.
I dont really see any realized gains at the exit of the intercooler from the water injection...maybe a drop 2-3'F.
The dyno IMHO showed nothing also...with in dyno error.
I think to see better results the injection should take place after the intercooler...but then equal distribution to the cylinders is a big issue
The Temps are measured with a k-type Thermocouple and a handheld meter at 4 points in the intake tract...t4(airfilter in fender) t3(SC inlet) t2(SC outlet) t1(I/C outlet)
you can blow on the probes at arms length and they will change temp.

Thats about as clear as i can get.

IMHO in its curent SC form and with stock managenent i dont think we have the capbility to fully take advantage of adjusting fuel maps and timing.
...Thus...Enter the 'Sharktuner' for your items below.
...a little more substanial than "firestorm"

Tony

Actually Hacker and Murph both have cryogenic experinece with their cars....when left out side in Wisconsin in january.

Tony

*Just like Venison. If it was really THAT good you would find it in every store....in this case it would be Firestorm in every car off the assembly line.

sjsj

Quite funny. A laugh and a half is always good.

Yes, there is some new enabling technology out there. I'm particularly excited about mating say megasquirt WITH water injection and firestorm IF firestorm delivers on it's promises. It is advertising a much more efficient burn of fuel.

One thing I wish to make clear here is I am in no way associated with any manufacturer of any of this stuff. Just an excited individual who wishes to move his Porsche into the 21st century.

sjsj

Do appreciate your support of such enabling technology. The devices listed certainly do so, which stand to collectively benefit all from INCREASES in fuel efficiency and therefore decreases in pollution.

Perhaps if water injection (or water/methanol or alky injection) didn't work, then perhaps people would be out of business and places such as :

www.aquamist.co.uk
http://www.alkycontrol.com

I do not mean to advertise these services in any way, simply challenge what is in my opinion completely incorrect information.

To those who question if water injection does or doesn't work, just run your car during a cold foggy night. Does it run differenty? If so, then you are seeing the appreciative benefits of cyclinder cooling from moist air which thus can mean increases in timing. Such a solution DOES require some warning technology IF the water was ever to stop injecting. Ie: low reservoir tank and a check valve for flow. Otherwise heat being a great way of premature death of the internals of an engine.

I wish you well in your day.

sjsj

Tony

they arent out of business, Water/Meth works amazingly well. Its potential isnt realized in my engine at this pont i dont think.
I bet it would work really well in the rear turbo set ups coming out..

sjsj

Agreed, evaluating the success stories at http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/ it would work really well in rear turbo setup cars.

It does work REALLY well on naturally aspirated cars (NA) too. We can see kits are available to do so. Benefits from detonation-free increased timing levels possible only with higher octane fuel or water injection present.

The Porsche 928s being a fine example of a naturally aspirated beast to try water injection on. Any volunteers to try this technology?

sjj

AO

Why not you?


One thing was bothering me about the FS plugs. If they do burn so efficiently, it would be very difficult to properly manage fuel delivery on a car that's used to running regular spark plugs. The O2 sensor would think the mixture is lean and then the fuel management system would try to bring it back to stoich by enriching the mixture. You would have to at a minimum have a wideband O2 sensor and capabilities to re-map the fueling curves not to mention an idea of where those curves should be. Not sayingits impossible, but it sure seems like it would be a lot of work to get it to work correctly.

Tony... I heard the first deer of the season here was actually a road kill deer. Go figure. No more freezing your *** off in a stand. Just drive.

WallyP

I ran water injection for several years - on a NA Corvair. I raised the compression ratio, reshaped the combustion chamber for more squish, and added an AFB. I went a little too far, and had some serious detonation at full throttle...

I added water induction by putting a tiny tube (non-tempered hypodermic tubing) in the primaries, ending very near the venturis. The tubing was connected to a tank in the engine compartment, which was located just below the venturi level and in front of the carb (so acceleration increased flow).

With this setup, I got no flow at idle, very little flow at small throttle openings, and full flow at full throttle. No pumps, valves, or controls required.

I ran water in the summer, and water/alcohol mix in the winter.

The water injection cured the detonation completely. I could tell instantly when the tank ran dry!

sjsj

Let me ease your confusion, got keys, no car

Cheaply and easily tuning the car is not a problem and I can elaborate if you wish. FS plugs running at 40:1 stoich point would present a technology challenge for closed loop operation, where fuel injectors cycle on and off in an attempt to maintain stoich (14.7:1) air/fuel ratio using narrowband sensors.

Current wideband O2 sensors taper off at 30:1 . LSU4 sensor reads from 10:1-30: and bosch found on honda's N1K1 or whatever it is reads more rich and up to 27:1.

In saying that, there would be nothing stopping someone from simply disconnecting the O2 sensor and run open loop at all times which uses the MAF signal instead. Usually this implies worse performance and fuel economy when running 14.7:1. Running 272% more efficent at 40:1 would make this a feasability until sensor manufacturers caught up.

This is of course if the firestorm plugs do what they claim. I have never seen one in the flesh. Perhaps some of the US folks can see if the author would like to donate some for experimentation.

Good reading about O2 sensors is available at:
- http://wbo2.com/lsu/oxygen13-17.pdf
- http://wbo2.com/lsu/default.htm
- http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_0618/article.html
- http://autospeed.drive.com.au/A_2695...s/article.html

Table of wideband and corresponding narrowband sensor outputs
http://wbo2.com/sw/20-tables.xls

sjj