Very early '78 model year US model
09-27-2005, 09:28 AM
#16
Race Director
There is a red 1978 928 that looks exactly like that one on a small buy-here-pay-here lot in town, shoe polish on the window says "78, low miles, $5000". If anyone is interested I can stop by, get the vin#, and take a couple of photos. Looks to be in fairly good shape. The louvres/grill is black. Don't know if it is a manual or auto. It has been there about 5 months.
(NOTE: "in-town" means Dayton, Ohio)
(NOTE: "in-town" means Dayton, Ohio)
09-27-2005, 03:31 PM
#17
928 OB-Wan
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Originally Posted by 928FIXER
If this is car # 16 I would like to know what the engine number is as I am trying to understand the engine build sequence numbering.I would like to know what the alternator cooling duct is made of.Is it plastic or metal?
09-27-2005, 06:34 PM
#18
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Thank you all for your comments. I'll try to address them all at once.
Seat cloth. So it's not berber. I would say it is from factory anyway as seats almost scream originality. I have never seen any 928 where aftermarket redo would have all contours of the seats just right. These look exacly like what I have always envisioned good condition old style seat must look like. Dash and many other parts look very good too.
Fog lights. There is black tape that cover their class entirely. Don't know why. One explanation can be Finnish regulations. They require lights to have E aproval marking on the class. If those lighs are US version it's possible that inspector wanted them to be taken out or made unoperational before car passed it's registration or yearly inspection. I'm surprised rear side marker lights are still there at all. Usually they need to be covered totally. In this case it has been enough just to remove bulbs it seems.
Window trim. It looks it came like that from the factory. There is no hint of black anodizing anywhere and I have seen other early cars with similar trim. I have no idea why some cars have black and others have this version. There doesn't seem to be any logic to it. Haven't found for example any chassis number or date when it was changed. Both versions existed side by side at first and then this version just disapears.
Front bumper louvers. I have seen these in both body color and black. ROW '78 number 221 had black originally. It was painted body color recently.
Engine number. Didn't have a chance to check it yet. Will do later. Also will try to check gearbox number as well.
ROW '78 VIN 221 has engine number 264. I would expect them to grow more rapidly than VIN numbers but quite steadily. Meaning for example 500th car has engine 550 and 1000th has 1100 or there abouts. On later model years engine number series start from 500. In what model year exactly this change was done I don't know. Still general relationship stays the same and there were more engines made than cars.
AFAIK with what engine number any given VIN came from the factory is impossible to say without access to factory documentation. Based on limited number of samples, I would say also engines follow same logic as VIN's and there can be two engines numbered 264 for '78 model year. Other one is US version with sequence number 8280264. Important difference is second digit. Manual and automatic gearbox do not probably effect this sequence numbering. At least not on these early model years. Gearbox only decides engine type (M28/01) portion of the stamping.
Hatch lock cylinder. ROW '78 number 221 also has similar recessed version.
Intake tubes. They are clearly changed as venturi part didn't exist before '81. I know two other local early cars which have old style tubes still left. On both cars tubes are disintegrating because of old age and exposure to engine heat.
AC dryer. AC doest work and dryer is most likely missing all together. I didn't remember to check more closely.
Tach redline. Interesting, do automatic gearbox cars have different tach or is this something special?
Voltmeter markings. Does other cars have 8- -12- -16 like this one has? I'm thinking if this and tach are features of later model meaning they are changed.
Rear carpet. It has changed color in real life also but part of the change in pictures is from my camera.
Center console vent ****. Porsche badge does look out of place in there. Owner is fixing these small issues and eventually car will probably be all back to original. Too bad all tools are long gone AFAIK.
Door locking ****. All looks like they belong there. I would be surprised if they were changed.
Rear seat belts. I don't believe they are aftermarket. Again installation looks too good. They are missing plastic surround where belt goes through panel though. Hopefully parts that were ordered will fix. Has there ever been 928 without factory real belts?
Rear seat latch ****. It's my camera again making tricks. They are clean or at least cleaner than my pictures.
Horns. We haven't checked how many and what kind there are.
Alternator cooling. Don't know yet but will try to remember to check.
'77 model year and VIN's in general. I believe there aren't any true '77 VIN cars in existence. Mix up may come from door sticker production month having year '77 in it. For example on Chuck's excellect site ROW #16 is listed as '77 even though it has '78 VIN in eBay add. Fourth digit desides what is considered to be which model year, not build date. 928 Specialists website lists 175 cars sold worldwide in '77 but I believe that is one of several errors in that data table. And those numbers are probably trying to be calendar year numbers, not model year.
Forgot to mention few things.
Rear bumber has PORSCHE written in it like all 928's (I think all have it). This one has black letters. Have seen it on some other early cars as well. Is this from the factory? They look very well done. Much better than whay 99% of the owners would ever bother to try to create. Based on that, I believe they came from the factory.
Rear hatch shock mounting. Didn't have any other 928 to compare with so this might not be difference to later cars. Is there something different in how these shocks are mounted to body and hatch. I can't quite say what it is but it seem different than what I remember it should look like.
Head lamp cockpit adjustment. There is adjustment knop in cockpit at it's usual place and lamps do have normal movement range ralated to this feature. It can be required addition when car was imported to Finland but I suspect this is from the factory. No-one in their right mind would have installed Porsche original parts when importing 10-15 years old car. They would have used other more easily available and better working parts. I know adjustment is not allowed in USA and still believe car left with it from the factory.
Seat cloth. So it's not berber. I would say it is from factory anyway as seats almost scream originality. I have never seen any 928 where aftermarket redo would have all contours of the seats just right. These look exacly like what I have always envisioned good condition old style seat must look like. Dash and many other parts look very good too.
Fog lights. There is black tape that cover their class entirely. Don't know why. One explanation can be Finnish regulations. They require lights to have E aproval marking on the class. If those lighs are US version it's possible that inspector wanted them to be taken out or made unoperational before car passed it's registration or yearly inspection. I'm surprised rear side marker lights are still there at all. Usually they need to be covered totally. In this case it has been enough just to remove bulbs it seems.
Window trim. It looks it came like that from the factory. There is no hint of black anodizing anywhere and I have seen other early cars with similar trim. I have no idea why some cars have black and others have this version. There doesn't seem to be any logic to it. Haven't found for example any chassis number or date when it was changed. Both versions existed side by side at first and then this version just disapears.
Front bumper louvers. I have seen these in both body color and black. ROW '78 number 221 had black originally. It was painted body color recently.
Engine number. Didn't have a chance to check it yet. Will do later. Also will try to check gearbox number as well.
ROW '78 VIN 221 has engine number 264. I would expect them to grow more rapidly than VIN numbers but quite steadily. Meaning for example 500th car has engine 550 and 1000th has 1100 or there abouts. On later model years engine number series start from 500. In what model year exactly this change was done I don't know. Still general relationship stays the same and there were more engines made than cars.
AFAIK with what engine number any given VIN came from the factory is impossible to say without access to factory documentation. Based on limited number of samples, I would say also engines follow same logic as VIN's and there can be two engines numbered 264 for '78 model year. Other one is US version with sequence number 8280264. Important difference is second digit. Manual and automatic gearbox do not probably effect this sequence numbering. At least not on these early model years. Gearbox only decides engine type (M28/01) portion of the stamping.
Hatch lock cylinder. ROW '78 number 221 also has similar recessed version.
Intake tubes. They are clearly changed as venturi part didn't exist before '81. I know two other local early cars which have old style tubes still left. On both cars tubes are disintegrating because of old age and exposure to engine heat.
AC dryer. AC doest work and dryer is most likely missing all together. I didn't remember to check more closely.
Tach redline. Interesting, do automatic gearbox cars have different tach or is this something special?
Voltmeter markings. Does other cars have 8- -12- -16 like this one has? I'm thinking if this and tach are features of later model meaning they are changed.
Rear carpet. It has changed color in real life also but part of the change in pictures is from my camera.
Center console vent ****. Porsche badge does look out of place in there. Owner is fixing these small issues and eventually car will probably be all back to original. Too bad all tools are long gone AFAIK.
Door locking ****. All looks like they belong there. I would be surprised if they were changed.
Rear seat belts. I don't believe they are aftermarket. Again installation looks too good. They are missing plastic surround where belt goes through panel though. Hopefully parts that were ordered will fix. Has there ever been 928 without factory real belts?
Rear seat latch ****. It's my camera again making tricks. They are clean or at least cleaner than my pictures.
Horns. We haven't checked how many and what kind there are.
Alternator cooling. Don't know yet but will try to remember to check.
'77 model year and VIN's in general. I believe there aren't any true '77 VIN cars in existence. Mix up may come from door sticker production month having year '77 in it. For example on Chuck's excellect site ROW #16 is listed as '77 even though it has '78 VIN in eBay add. Fourth digit desides what is considered to be which model year, not build date. 928 Specialists website lists 175 cars sold worldwide in '77 but I believe that is one of several errors in that data table. And those numbers are probably trying to be calendar year numbers, not model year.
Forgot to mention few things.
Rear bumber has PORSCHE written in it like all 928's (I think all have it). This one has black letters. Have seen it on some other early cars as well. Is this from the factory? They look very well done. Much better than whay 99% of the owners would ever bother to try to create. Based on that, I believe they came from the factory.
Rear hatch shock mounting. Didn't have any other 928 to compare with so this might not be difference to later cars. Is there something different in how these shocks are mounted to body and hatch. I can't quite say what it is but it seem different than what I remember it should look like.
Head lamp cockpit adjustment. There is adjustment knop in cockpit at it's usual place and lamps do have normal movement range ralated to this feature. It can be required addition when car was imported to Finland but I suspect this is from the factory. No-one in their right mind would have installed Porsche original parts when importing 10-15 years old car. They would have used other more easily available and better working parts. I know adjustment is not allowed in USA and still believe car left with it from the factory.
09-27-2005, 09:35 PM
#19
928 OB-Wan
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I think what many folks don't realize is that these are very early cars, "prototypes" so the "standard" doesn't really apply in many ways as many of them were never intended to be sold to the public
this is one of the main reasons I'm drawn to the early cars (as are many others),
the later cars are so alike in many ways and the "uniqueness" kind of got lost (red, white, blue, black...etc), also the main reason it took me a year of searching to find the grn on grn S4
yes, you do find the off beat combos here and there, but they are few and far between
this is not to say I don't appreciate them, I do, but when you see 20 cars that are similar, and one that's almost a completely diff car just due to the color combo it really catches my eye
that being said:
the seats were available in the same year 911, and given that they were built next to each other they could be original..
hatch lock cylinder is exactly like mine
I do find it odd that the headlight adjuster is intact and working, this was a Euro deal and not intended for the US market
I would be interested in knowing the horn setup and block # when you get the chance
this is one of the main reasons I'm drawn to the early cars (as are many others),
the later cars are so alike in many ways and the "uniqueness" kind of got lost (red, white, blue, black...etc), also the main reason it took me a year of searching to find the grn on grn S4
yes, you do find the off beat combos here and there, but they are few and far between
this is not to say I don't appreciate them, I do, but when you see 20 cars that are similar, and one that's almost a completely diff car just due to the color combo it really catches my eye
that being said:
the seats were available in the same year 911, and given that they were built next to each other they could be original..
hatch lock cylinder is exactly like mine
I do find it odd that the headlight adjuster is intact and working, this was a Euro deal and not intended for the US market
I would be interested in knowing the horn setup and block # when you get the chance
09-28-2005, 03:18 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by Vilhuer
Thank you all for your comments. I'll try to address them all at once.
Engine number. Didn't have a chance to check it yet. Will do later. Also will try to check gearbox number as well.
ROW '78 VIN 221 has engine number 264. I would expect them to grow more rapidly than VIN numbers but quite steadily. Meaning for example 500th car has engine 550 and 1000th has 1100 or there abouts. On later model years engine number series start from 500. In what model year exactly this change was done I don't know. Still general relationship stays the same and there were more engines made than cars.
AFAIK with what engine number any given VIN came from the factory is impossible to say without access to factory documentation. Based on limited number of samples, I would say also engines follow same logic as VIN's and there can be two engines numbered 264 for '78 model year. Other one is US version with sequence number 8280264. Important difference is second digit. Manual and automatic gearbox do not probably effect this sequence numbering. At least not on these early model years. Gearbox only decides engine type (M28/01) portion of the stamping.
Engine number. Didn't have a chance to check it yet. Will do later. Also will try to check gearbox number as well.
ROW '78 VIN 221 has engine number 264. I would expect them to grow more rapidly than VIN numbers but quite steadily. Meaning for example 500th car has engine 550 and 1000th has 1100 or there abouts. On later model years engine number series start from 500. In what model year exactly this change was done I don't know. Still general relationship stays the same and there were more engines made than cars.
AFAIK with what engine number any given VIN came from the factory is impossible to say without access to factory documentation. Based on limited number of samples, I would say also engines follow same logic as VIN's and there can be two engines numbered 264 for '78 model year. Other one is US version with sequence number 8280264. Important difference is second digit. Manual and automatic gearbox do not probably effect this sequence numbering. At least not on these early model years. Gearbox only decides engine type (M28/01) portion of the stamping.
BTW & FWIW... My #0853 78 US has an M28/03, Number 8280838
Probably the engine was pulled off the line to have something tested and/or corrected and it re-entered the production queue at a later time.
Originally Posted by Vilhuer
Hatch lock cylinder. ROW '78 number 221 also has similar recessed version.
Originally Posted by Vilhuer
Tach redline. Interesting, do automatic gearbox cars have different tach or is this something special?
) was worth installing a new tach for... but not a different speedo. j/k, actually it seems like someone couldn't make up their minds whether this is a US or Euro car. Must have been built either Friday or Monday. 
Originally Posted by Vilhuer
Rear hatch shock mounting. Didn't have any other 928 to compare with so this might not be difference to later cars. Is there something different in how these shocks are mounted to body and hatch. I can't quite say what it is but it seem different than what I remember it should look like.
Last edited by SharkSkin; 09-28-2005 at 05:09 PM.
09-28-2005, 08:14 AM
#22
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It wouldn't surprise me if engine in guards red car is "M28/01 82800xx". It is possible "M28/03" and "/04" only came out little later. When I was looking into engine numbers few years back for 2004 Lempäälä 928 meeting presentation there was some confliction information in different documents about '78 model year US engines. Some sources said "01" & "02" and others had "03" & "04". At that time I disregarded "01" & "02" as error but maybe it's true. It is possible both ROW and US used same engine types and only "818..." and "828..." differentiate what number was put in for these early cars. "M28/01 828..." should not be possible at all if we follow general logic how engines were numbered by Porsche. Will definitelly check what's in it.
Rear hatch shocks are clearly changed, they work far too well to be more than year or two old. What I meant was, is their mounting points in body and hatch different than later cars? Maybe need to do comparison with other models.
Rear hatch shocks are clearly changed, they work far too well to be more than year or two old. What I meant was, is their mounting points in body and hatch different than later cars? Maybe need to do comparison with other models.
09-28-2005, 01:24 PM
#23
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I goofed, sorry... my lump is actually M28/03. I edited my post above.
Hatch shock mounting points look fine to me. Is the car missing the rubber blocks that mount near the shocks, or are they just not in the pic?
Hatch shock mounting points look fine to me. Is the car missing the rubber blocks that mount near the shocks, or are they just not in the pic?
09-28-2005, 02:21 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by SharkSkin
Is the car missing the rubber blocks that mount near the shocks, or are they just not in the pic?
09-28-2005, 03:09 PM
#25
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928 Specialists Engine Types Page lists the following:
M28/01: Euro MT
M28/02: Euro AT
M28/03: US MT
M28/04: US AT
(All 77-79 4.5l, 8.5:1)
My little tech spec booklet breaks it down further, stating 03 & 04 are for Japan as well, and lists info on applicable chassis numbers too.
[Edit]I found the same data on my Tech Doc CD. Here is the relevant page(attached).[/Edit]
M28/01: Euro MT
M28/02: Euro AT
M28/03: US MT
M28/04: US AT
(All 77-79 4.5l, 8.5:1)
My little tech spec booklet breaks it down further, stating 03 & 04 are for Japan as well, and lists info on applicable chassis numbers too.
[Edit]I found the same data on my Tech Doc CD. Here is the relevant page(attached).[/Edit]
09-28-2005, 04:51 PM
#26
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Dave, I have that tech spec book too. Somewhere else I saw contradicting evidence of '78 US model engines. Can't remember where.
Engine number ranges in you attachment could be wrong. For example it lists 187 as largest '78 engine number for Japan yet they only made 75 cars. Also some other numbers do not make sense like '78 ROW automatic engine range. All sort of verifiable information I have seen indicate manual and automatic engines share same running sequence in '78-79 period. It's not possible to find two engines with exact same second line on the block. Type portion on first line obviously do and have to change between manual and automatic cars. There simply is no reliable source for this kind of data in available factory documents it seems.
Japanise models almost always used same engine type as US cars. For '81-82 they did get their own types "M28/17" and "/18". This list is based on many different sources including everything on Jim's CD's and Jörg Austen's book. If you see anything wrong with it please say so and I'll update it.
Back in 2004 I put in gif "03" and "04" as it seemed most sources listed them. Your car seems to verify their existence at least spring of '78 already.
Engine number ranges in you attachment could be wrong. For example it lists 187 as largest '78 engine number for Japan yet they only made 75 cars. Also some other numbers do not make sense like '78 ROW automatic engine range. All sort of verifiable information I have seen indicate manual and automatic engines share same running sequence in '78-79 period. It's not possible to find two engines with exact same second line on the block. Type portion on first line obviously do and have to change between manual and automatic cars. There simply is no reliable source for this kind of data in available factory documents it seems.
Japanise models almost always used same engine type as US cars. For '81-82 they did get their own types "M28/17" and "/18". This list is based on many different sources including everything on Jim's CD's and Jörg Austen's book. If you see anything wrong with it please say so and I'll update it.
Back in 2004 I put in gif "03" and "04" as it seemed most sources listed them. Your car seems to verify their existence at least spring of '78 already.
09-28-2005, 05:20 PM
#27
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Edited my long post above again... changed to "maybe this tach goes along with the M28/01" where I had said 03.
Another piece of the puzzle(maybe) that i noticed while looking this stuff over is that the M28/01 Peak HP is 250RPM hgher. This could explain why the redline on that red car is marked ~200RPM higher than mine. Of course, I know that a shifted power peak does not necessarily mean that a different "safe" redline applies. Perhaps they just moved the mark up on the tach because that would allow you to get into the next higher gear closer to the HP peak. It would be interesting to compare the two power curves, but I don't seem to have it for M28/01.
Were there really two different auto boxes in the early years? What was the difference between A22/01 and /02? And no, I'm not thinking of converting to an AT.
Another piece of the puzzle(maybe) that i noticed while looking this stuff over is that the M28/01 Peak HP is 250RPM hgher. This could explain why the redline on that red car is marked ~200RPM higher than mine. Of course, I know that a shifted power peak does not necessarily mean that a different "safe" redline applies. Perhaps they just moved the mark up on the tach because that would allow you to get into the next higher gear closer to the HP peak. It would be interesting to compare the two power curves, but I don't seem to have it for M28/01.
Were there really two different auto boxes in the early years? What was the difference between A22/01 and /02? And no, I'm not thinking of converting to an AT.
09-28-2005, 05:38 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by SharkSkin
Another piece of the puzzle(maybe) that i noticed while looking this stuff over is that the M28/01 Peak HP is 250RPM hgher. This could explain why the redline on that red car is marked ~200RPM higher than mine.
Of course, I know that a shifted power peak does not necessarily mean that a different "safe" redline applies. Perhaps they just moved the mark up on the tach because that would allow you to get into the next higher gear closer to the HP peak. It would be interesting to compare the two power curves, but I don't seem to have it for M28/01.
Were there really two different auto boxes in the early years? What was the difference between A22/01 and /02? And no, I'm not thinking of converting to an AT.
07-16-2007, 06:57 PM
#29
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It took long but now I have both engine and gearbox number from this red US #16. Engine is:
M28/03
8280027
and gearbox:
G28/03 1180091
Both are within reasinable distance from VIN. In my opion close enough that they can be original. Nothing mysterious in them after all.
Still no definitive answer if interior is original or not. I believe seat fabric not to be stock after all and having been changed in Finland based on what previous owners son has said to me. Still, its very hard to be believe someone geting them done so right locally without spending much $$$$ for the job.
M28/03
8280027
and gearbox:
G28/03 1180091
Both are within reasinable distance from VIN. In my opion close enough that they can be original. Nothing mysterious in them after all.
Still no definitive answer if interior is original or not. I believe seat fabric not to be stock after all and having been changed in Finland based on what previous owners son has said to me. Still, its very hard to be believe someone geting them done so right locally without spending much $$$$ for the job.
07-17-2007, 01:47 AM
#30
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Thought I might add comments comparing my car:
-ROW #289
-M28/01 #8180326
-G28/03 #1180075 (this car may be close to US #16 in age?)
-8-12-16 Volt gauge
-recessed hatch lock
-louvers at front are black
-alt cooling duct is plastic
-has black porsche letters on rear bumper (may be aftermarket?)
-also has odd six-sided rotary door lock **** (see pic)
-'off' position on ignition lock has key hole vertical (see pic) (all other cars I have seen have the key hole rotated 45 degrees CCW from vertical)
-has no side marker lights OR side turn signals. Inspection of the inside left fender shows that the holes were never stamped into the fender (??). Was there an export market that required side turn signal delete? I have never seen another example of this. Gauges and climate control appear to be German language.
BTW, I am missing one of the abovementioned rotary lock ***** - does anybody have one they could part with?
[IMG]IMGP0140r.jpg [/IMG]
[IMG]IMGP0141r.jpg [/IMG]
-ROW #289
-M28/01 #8180326
-G28/03 #1180075 (this car may be close to US #16 in age?)
-8-12-16 Volt gauge
-recessed hatch lock
-louvers at front are black
-alt cooling duct is plastic
-has black porsche letters on rear bumper (may be aftermarket?)
-also has odd six-sided rotary door lock **** (see pic)
-'off' position on ignition lock has key hole vertical (see pic) (all other cars I have seen have the key hole rotated 45 degrees CCW from vertical)
-has no side marker lights OR side turn signals. Inspection of the inside left fender shows that the holes were never stamped into the fender (??). Was there an export market that required side turn signal delete? I have never seen another example of this. Gauges and climate control appear to be German language.
BTW, I am missing one of the abovementioned rotary lock ***** - does anybody have one they could part with?
[IMG]IMGP0140r.jpg [/IMG]
[IMG]IMGP0141r.jpg [/IMG]