m21sniper

A chevy Z28 5.0 Liter or LT-1 5.7 liter(circa 70-73) are about as bullet proof of motors as you can get(regardless of manufacturer), and make INSANE power with no more than aftermarket headers and good racing exhaust. The Z28 even with factory exhaust had an 8000rpm redline!

Also GMC truck SBC motors up until about 78 came stock with forged crank, forged pistons, and 4 bolt mains. All they needed was a 'double hump' head/cam/intake manifold/exhaust transplant to produce massive power(i've built a few of them personally so i'm speaking 1st hand). The above named parts could be had for about 2000 bucks, and would result in a 400+ hp N/A motor.

And of course a simple ZZ4 Chevy 5.7 liter 355hp factory crate roller cam motor comes delivered to your door with warranty for all of 4k bucks complete.

Knocking SBC Chevy motors is just silly, they are proven performers, and can be hot-rodded for less money than any other motor in existance(with the possible exception of the Buick 3.8L turbo V-6, which is my all time fave powerplant).

Of course nitrous is even cheaper, and yeah, i view it as cheating too....but hey, i could care less. If you ask me the guy that has 5x more money to blow on his engine is cheating too.

m21sniper

"Imagine if the same $$ had been spent building up a 928 motor? Then they would really have something unique (and potent)."

That would have about 200 less HP and would cost more to maintain.

I love my Porsche V-8, and if i do ever swap it out it won't be for a chevy, it will be for a Buick V-6 turbo, but SBCs are proven performers.

JimBob951

I have heard atleast one 944 that had been converted to the Buick turbo.

Jim

87 928 S4 a/t
87 951

m21sniper

If you ever stumble across any pix of that one please do PM them to me. I'd love to see that!

I can't even imagine what a 944 would be like with a 400+hp mild 3.8V6 Buick turbo. OMFG....

BTW, thanx for that vid you sent me of the 1100hp Buick GN twin turbo the other day. LOL...i was drooling.

Fabio421

The Chevy vs Porsche argument is just as silly as the Chevy vs Ford argument. Its a matter of personal preference. If you prefer Porsche you will pay through the nose. The same goes for Ford on a smaller $$ scale. The chevy's are just so much cheaper to build than anything else because of their parts interchangeability. Because of how easily parts can swap from one to another it has created a huge aftermarket which drove down the parts prices for chevy. To build an engine of XXX HP in a Chevy it would cost XXXX $'s the same HP in a Ford would cost 1 1/2 times that and a Porsche would be..... um....3X the cost ? The fact that the stel blocked Chevy is 100 lbs lighter than the Porsche V8 is what really shocked me. I'm still having trouble with that one.

928SS

it's cause there aren't any parts bins full of cool 928 HP stuff

BTDT w/the "unique", potent 928 "journey" - ck out my sharkpage/or sterlings pages if you want some details... if you are looking at NA $$/HP in the 500chp range - w/all the aftermarket stuff laying around for the cheby (and awesome crate motors ready to go), chebys/ferds are pretty darn cost effective vs doing a 928 motor that has to be totally custom built and tuned by skilled craftsmen (ie crank builder, piston guy, cam guy, head guy, master engine builder) vs just using mass produced, off the shelf parts and a 9/16" socket wrench....

yes, the 928 cam covers and intake plenum look cool, and the timing belt can keep you entertained for hours... but if you want NA tire melting 928 hair, it's a real effort to improve on what Dr P did w/his 302cu dual plenum gem, so each motor becomes a custom job w/a certian level of R&D required (ie mo $$$)....

IMO, bang for $$, the real deal are the SC options that are now available....

would I do mine the same way again?? no doubt, but I'm 1/2 crazed anyway so to expect less would be a miscalculation for sure...

DFWX

Actually, there is real basis for conflict with SBCs. GM pulled out of performance activity in the early 60s, and instead joined forces with DOT and EPA advocates leading to the virtual obliteration of
Ford, Chrysler, succeeding with AMC, driving nearly ever small Euro independent auto maker out of business via regulations, closed fully nearly 80% of all auto makers worldwide, and Porsche was among their target list as both rear engined and air cooled.
Risking over a billion $$ - a massive sum for a company the size of Porsche at that time - Porsche fired back with the 928 project - which then also birthed the 924/944. The 928 was built, among other things, to be a Vette Killer and it was.
SBCs are not bullet proof. For performance work they are essentially gutted of all GM parts, which are replaced with other components from other companies.
GM was the enemy of Porsche that lead to the 928 project - that so blew away ever GM model that it ceased even being considered a contest. The 928 also can run at 5,000+ rpm hours on end - unthinkable in a GM motor.
The 928 is still a superior motor to this day, only with outdated engine management.
Given the actual history of the 928, it is perfectly correct to express contempt for a cast iron SBC
in a 928, particularly when it is no longer an SBC motor anyway, just an SBC cast iron block as the GM orginal component.
A turbo Buick 3.8?
Guys reading Hot Rod magazine advertisements and believing them. Nothing new there. 95 extra horsepower just by changing the cam in an SBC... 17% increase if they buy their plug wires, 23 horsepower from a different air filter and bingo - 500 horsepower!
PT Barnum.

m21sniper

You are not seriously opining that a SBC isn't the most easy engine in the world to make cheap N/A HP in are you? It is by far.

And as i said, as they came from the factory, the LT-1 and Z28 SBCs were both bulletproof engines putting out(for the time) massive HP:CI, and even today with free flowing racing exhaust they have comparable power output to many of todays hipo engines. All you have to do is change to a header dual exhaust and re-jet the carb to make over 400 crank hp on an LT-1. Likewise for the Z28 with re-jetting and racing exhaust. The 302cid Z28 is a high revving beast putting out well over 1hp per cubic inch, with an 8,000rpm redline right from the factory.

Consider the stock internals of the LT-1:

350cid, 370hp
4 bolt main 'NASCAR spec' block
Forged pistons
Forged Crank
'Pink' rods
Double hump 2.02/1.60 angle plug high flow heads
LT-1 Aluminum high rise intake(you will recognize the same intake today as the Edelbrock Performer RPM)

Even today the LT-1 introduced in late 69 is one of the most potent N/A V-8 motors ever made.

And so is the Z28.

DFWX

Any motor pre-1972 is a different matter than post 1972. Boss 302 would blow away Chevy Z28s and were vastly stronger.
1972 and 350s were junk. Check the hp ratings for those years.
SBCs are cheap because they are cheap.

DFWX

GM 350s of the 60s couldn't breathe. It took serious porting to get hp out of them. 370 stock horsepower and 400 with headers and rejetting out of a 69 Z28 is just absurd.

DFWX

SBC guys are like fishermen - piling exaggerations one on another.
An old hotrodder here, the numbers on SBCs are not unknown.
Until 1971, American cast iron V-8s made horsepower by cubic inches and dumping a lot of
gasoline it. Very crude, but if big enough made horsepower and torque.
How much did the boaster of the 1969 Z28 and the 1971-73 LT1 exaggerate?
Look it up on line...
A 1969 Z28 - and very few Cameros were Z28s - made 290 horsepower at 5,800. Not 380 at 8,000 rpm as he claims. There are almost no early Z28s with their original motors as they easily came apart.
The fabulous 1973 LT1 350 (Covette motor) made 250 horsepower.
The horsepower ratings by GM were at the crankshaft, exhaust disconnected and no accessories - including no alternator and remote water pump.
In 1972 compression dropped to 8-1 and no American motor was anything but coughing junk.

Back then, only dunderheads ran small blocks in street rods. It was strictly cubic inches. My ownership included a three duce "Corvette" 427 and then 454 Chevy (dropped into a '67 El Camino),
as well as Mopar 440 and Ford 429 SCJ - the latter the most advanced design by far. Of the locals,
the quickest was a worked up 69 Mustang with a tricked out Ford 427 side oiler and the second
was a 429 SCJ. My big block Chevys made horsepower and torque, but they were inferior to
both other brands in terms of breathing and structural integrity - they blew up.

DFWX

Back then, guys running small blocks, regardless of make or model, were not even considered serious contenders on the street. Those all were primative motors and the exaggeration level was extreme. Horrid gas mileage and to make horsepower you had to pump so much gas in that it washed down the cylinder walls even further shortening their lifespan. An American muscle car motor lasting 100K was essentially never - and that is if kept stock and at factory redline - usually around 5,000 to 5,500.

m21sniper

"GM 350s of the 60s couldn't breathe."

Which of course explains the 8000rpm redline of the Z28 302.

"It took serious porting to get hp out of them. 370 stock horsepower and 400 with headers and rejetting out of a 69 Z28 is just absurd."

LOL, the LT-1 came with 370 from the factory. It had the ultimate cast iron Cheby heads made, the angle plug double humps and a huge solid lifter cam. 6500rpm redline on that one.

Eh, whatever.

"A 1969 Z28 - and very few Cameros were Z28s - made 290 horsepower at 5,800. Not 380 at 8,000 rpm as he claims."

I never said 380. I said with rejetting and racing exhaust they made better than 1hp per cube, and they did.

"There are almost no early Z28s with their original motors as they easily came apart."

I've seen plenty of them at car shows.

"The fabulous 1973 LT1 350 (Covette motor) made 250 horsepower."

255hp with cats, emmisions controls, and detuned carb. The main reason the HP dropped so low(beyond emmisions) is beause that was the year auto manufacturers switched to SAE ratings.

They were very easy to get up to much higher power levels by a simple rejet and exhaust swap.

"The horsepower ratings by GM were at the crankshaft, exhaust disconnected and no accessories - including no alternator and remote water pump."

All domestic manufacturers used the BHP rating system until 1972, not just chevy. 1972 saw the switch to SAE net(all accesories installed and operating at the tailshaft of the transmission), and everybody's power figures dropped through the floor in US legal cars.

"Back then, guys running small blocks, regardless of make or model, were not even considered serious contenders on the street."

What small block from any manufacturer was?

Big blocks dominated back then, and the Chevy 427 was as powerful as anyones.

"An American muscle car motor lasting 100K was essentially never - and that is if kept stock and at factory redline - usually around 5,000 to 5,500."

Well gee they would rust away to nothing by 100k, lol.

Here's some info on the Z28 motor:

The solid-lifter 302-cid V-8 with an 850-cfm four-barrel carburetor was again exclusive to the Z28. Dynomometer tests at close to 400 horsepower made a joke of its 290-horsepower rating. Dealer-installed dual four-barrel carburetor options were offered even in '67, and for '69, $500 bought twin 600-cfm Holleys on a cross-ram manifold, though at no change to the 290-horsepower rating. Chambered exhaust pipes — perhaps the least-restrictive exhausts Chevy ever offered — also were available.

Yet another functional option unique to 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28s was the $79 cowl-induction hood. It had a valve that snapped open at 80-percent throttle to draw in cool air from the base of the windshield.(sounds a lot like a flappy valve eh? Something that porsche did not introduce until the S4, almost 20 years later)

As far as production numbers, look at the totals for 68-69 alone: Drivers who understood its bare-knuckle character bought 7199 of them for '68(over 21,000 in 69), and sales nearly tripled for the 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28-a record that would stand until 1978.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/30002-...camaro-z28.htm


Z28 302cid 4bbl Holley

Here's an original Z28 302 Camaro that just recently sold for more than a mint condition low mile 95 928 GT will fetch.



And this from Pop Mechanics:

"That 290-hp rating, which seemed a bit tame compared to other Chevy performance engines of the time, has been the source of some controversy. While some sources claim actual power was closer to 400, 290 hp was probably a very honest (SAE)net rating (installed in the car).
A Z28-equipped Camaro was capable of a sub-15 second quarter mile performance. That's about a half-second quicker than an SS350 rated at 300 gross horsepower (gross ratings did not account for accessories and mufflers). Modified for Trans Am racing, the Chevy 302 produced an unstreetable 450 horsepower."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...tml?page=2&c=y

BTW, in 1969 driver Mark Donohue dominated SCCA Trans Am racing(which included the Porsche 911 and Mustang Shelby) in his Chevy 302 Z28(overbored .030 to 305cid, the SCCA TA displacement limit at the time), and won his second SCCA Trans Am title racing for Team Penske.

And in case anyone remains skeptical of the true power output of the Z28 302cid small block:

"Z28 option code was introduced in 1966. This option package wasn't mentioned in any sales literature so was unknown by most of the buyers. The only way to order Z28 package was to order base Camaro with Z28 option, front disc brakes, power steering and Muncie 4-speed transmission. Z28 package featured unique 302 in³ "small block" engine, designed specifically to compete in the Club of America Trans Am racing series (which required engines smaller than 305 in³ and public availablity of the car). Advertised power of this engine was listed at 290 hp (216 kW) while actual dyno readings rated it at 360 to 400 hp (269 to 298 kW). Z28 also came with upgraded suspension and racing stripes on the hood. It was possible to combine Z28 package with RS package. Only 602 Z28's were sold(in 1966)."
http://www.answers.com/topic/chevrolet-camaro

As far as crate motors, i ran a ZZ4 350cid 54cc Corvette aluminum head(ported and polished/port matched) roller cam motor in my 1968 Pontiac lemans with racing exhaust(headers, 2.5" duals with H pipe) and Edelbrock 750cfm carb with MSD ignition and recorded a best ever 12.4sec ET @ around 118mph 1/4 mile run(3000rpm stall, 4.10:1 gears in 12 bolt positraction rear with ladder bar and coil over drag shock suspension, and race prepped Turbo 400 trans on 12.5" wide 15" DOT cheater slicks. And a 68 LeMans is a heavy car. In a 928 weighing in at around 3000lbs(which mine is very close to) that motor would be good for about a 12 second flat 1/4 mile ET. A ZZ4 costs about $4000 dollars(complete engine minus carb and ignition) and comes complete with a 1 year GM warranty.

A ZZ4 is about 40lbs lighter than a standard cast iron head SBC, and even lighter if an aluminum waterpump and lightwieght starter is used. That combonation would probably be a good 200lbs lighter than a Porsche 928 V-8.

Here's a pic of the motor and the car(i sold this car when i got my 928):

DFWX

It took dumping a lot of gas into motors in the 60s and 70s to make horsepower - including Porsche. With American iron, this washed down the cylinders causing very short lifespans even if driven as a daily driver - the reason manufacturers did not put big carbs on them. They also got horrible gas mileage.
Ultimately, cubic inch per cubic inch displacement, there is not a great difference between NA or blower motors regardless of brand.
To me, with a Porsche, it comes down to aesthetic issues. A Nissan NSX can be beat by a VW Rabbit if the latter is on NOS and a turbo. If the goal was cheap speed, just buy an old stock car and return it to street legal.
But I do accept that people own their cars and can do absolutely anything they want with them.
If Chevrolet or Buick motors turn a person on, go for it. However, as those projects are the most common of all, there is little unique or creative in doing so.
I drive out the the local (small communities) 1/8th track which is heavily attended and with hundreds of competitors 3 nights a week. 90%+ are SBCs of various vintages - and for some the owners have poured money into them under the hood.
My wife's mere 1984 stock 16V with the spider intake and custom s4 widebody kit and BBS wheels in
bright ("Corvette") yellow is what we usually take. Not on the track, my track car is undergoing substantial upgrading. Yet for her bone stock 20+ year old spider intake 303 V-8? It is the one that draws the crowd.
It not only is fairly fast (top speed 160+), it looks fast and even looks faster under the hood. Curb appeal. Eccentricity. Excessive complexity for the sake of the expense of mechanical complexity. Exclusiveness. To be the only one on the road and appearances including under the hood unlike anyone else around. That is what a 928 is. Otherwise, why have one? I could, within 30 minutes, buy a black, 1969 street legal bracket racer Camero (still has glass and all lights) with a BBC in it, drag wheels front and back, riser hood... for $6,500. Been parked along the road for a month now - no takers. Its not like there aren't 30 million other SBCs on the road and parked here and there.

Again, what brings a person joy and I do prefer customizing rather than restorations - whatever the course the person follows. That may be our only common ground. Most 928 folks would not like what I am doing with my 928 either, though it will be a 32V 928 motor.

DFWX

PS - You should have kept your Camero. Looked sharp.