scirocco

Well, i suppose it had to happen...

Got popped today for 74/55 on the Outer Loop, around Andrews AFB.

As soon as i got home (about an hour ago) i took good and detailed notes about what i recalled, just in case i need them... and deciding if i need them is what i'm askin ya'll's help with.

It's a piddly little ticket, $75. It allows three options:

1) Admit guilt, pay fine
- Nice because it's easy
- the $75 is probably totally worth not dealing with any hassle
- I don't know if this could/would affect my insurace (USAA) or license/points (Connecticut)
- seems unfair, as i was seriously not going any faster than normal, or anyone else.

2) Deny guilt, get court date
- have to go to court... but i live here, and have plenty of "sick" time. I wear a suit to work anyway...
- chance to wipe it away
- traffic was fairly heavy, and there was both a weaving motorcycle and an SUV which passed in front of me in the "target zone"
- Seems like a major PITA

3) Admit guilt, get court date to beg for leniency
- seems silly... risk of doubled fine
- could be no fine though,
- still, $75 is worth NOT having to go there to beg


So... what does the group think? Get a lawyer? (recommendations?) Go to court on my own, explain the traffic/etc, and how "you were recorded by laser" just cannot be true? Just pay it and forget it?

I was very careful on the scene to be extremely non-threatening, pleasant and to offer NO extra information. He told me that i was caught on laser doing 74 in a 55. I did not challenge or argue with him, and also did NOT admit or comment on anything. (Well, i did tell him that he scared the bejeezuz out of me by running out into my traffic lane to wave/point me over)

Since this is a ticket for 19mph over, i suspect that maybe he gave me a break, if writing for 20 or more over would have been harsher. I honestly don't know how fast i was going, but traffic-flow tends to about 80mph around there. When he jumped out, though, i didn't recognize him as a cop and just hauled on the brakes.


Anyhow.. enough! long winded, i am ;-)

~aaron

Greggles

Sounds like you've made up your mind, $75 isn't worth your time????

blau928

Get a V1 for next time....!

AFARR

Couple of questions to ask--

#1. How many points on your license already?
#2. Ask around about your insurance (how much will it jump on a ticket)--consider not just this ticket but the next. If you go years between them, it will probably drop off before you get the next one.
#3. MD may not tell CT about stuff (or at least very well).
#4. Is it worth your time and hassle to fight it.
#5. Finally, is this a "Defensable" ticket? Something that you can legitimately fight in court (by yourself or with a lawyer)? Laser is a bit different--they have to aim it (not point it), so harder to defend than radar (which has a cone that it 'sees'). The next ticket may not be defensable--you may get caught doing 90 in a 55 with the Judge's Daughter in the back seat.... Pays to pick your battles.

scirocco

Thanks folks!

Greggles: I live in MD, but haven't gotten a license here yet.... just bought a house not long ago. The 75 clams isn't really the issue, since I sort of think that if i'm going to fight, i'll want to WIN, and therefore i'd probably (might?) have to spend five times (or more..) that much on a lawyer. OTOH, if i decide that i don't care about the "conviction" then it *is* worth the 75 not to have to go there and sit around all day..... That's not even a tank of gas for the El Camino. (yeah, i have 'other' cars.. ;-)

blau928: i take it that's a detector of some kind... i've never used one, so i dunno! Might be a good idea though.

AFARR: good questions!
Honestly, i have no idea! I could call CT and ask.... i got a ticket in VA for HOV violation about 2 years ago...

Yeah, those were my thoughts... of course, i don't want to call my ins. company (USAA) and just say "hey... i've got this friend, and he just got a ticket...." you know?

Anyone know how USAA will feel about this? Unlike the fine itself, the insurance IS a big deal to me!

Does anyone know about this? It occured to me too...

Not for the fine itself, but possibly for the points/insurance. I just don't know, which is why i'm asking!

I think it might be defensible.... Honestly, i was loafing along in the far-left lane, and i saw a small moto-cross bike in the far right (four lanes), probably a 250 or 350. It had lights/etc. Blue and white(or silver?) plastics, helmeted rider with flappy pants, and a package strapped to it. I noticed all of this because the thing was going faster than i was, and you don't often see a tiny bike on the Beltway....

Anyhow, the bike passed a tractor-trailer on the right, blocking my view of him, and then came over two lanes, and then one more lane in front of me, about 40 or 50 feet ahead. As he passing into my lane, i could clearly see the rear end wagging all over the place... remember, this is a tall, knobby-tire, soft-suspesion dirt bike. I was wondering to myself about his contact patch, and if the patch had actually slid during that tail-shimmy, or if it was all in the sidewall and suspension of the bike. Seemed pretty scary to me in any case, and i started thinking about what i was going to do (avoidance) if he bit it in front of me.

Just then, a white mid-size SUV (Toyota Rav4 or Nissan Pathfiner i think, round luggage-rack bars on the back roof) cut over fairly close in front of me... I immediately wondered what *that* guy would do if the bike bit it.

Then, i see a maroon/burgundy car on the left side of the road, broken down.... looking flat-tire problem-ish. I let off the gas and drifted to the far right of my lane, but the driver of that car ran pretty much right out in front of me! It took about a full second to register that he was wearing an orange vest.... It was the cop pointing me over.

So, then as mentioned before, we had a pleasant exchange, and i went on my way.

I don't know how defensible this really is (point taken about "aiming"), but traffic was pretty heavy, and mobile. I really was just going with the flow, and honestly didn't check my speedo when he darted out in front of me. As we all know, however, 74 on the beltway is often "going with the flow"....... On the other hand, both the bike AND the SUV were in front of me, and travelling faster (pulling away) than i was, before i 'lifted' when he came out into the lane.

Part of what makes me want to fight this is the next ticket... if i'm in a "judge's daughter" situation, I think it will be (at that time) very important to be able to say "Your honor, i have a spotless driving record, and my intentions with your sweet Priscilla were purely honorable." (hopefully at least one of those statements will be totally true..)

Man! i'm verbose today!

anyhow, thanks again!
~aaron

Joe F

Quote:
#4. Is it worth your time and hassle to fight it.
Aaron said:
"Not for the fine itself, but possibly for the points/insurance. I just don't know, which is why i'm asking!"


slowly climbs on soapbox
It's up to you. I think it's always worth it to fight it. Why just allow them to win? Yes, it's a hassle, yes it's time consuming, yes, you could be doing a bunch of other things. But, Every time someone rolls over and pays the fine, you lose some of your ability to fight. This is nothing more than an undeclared tax and I don't believe we should just contribute without making them win the money in court. If you are going to tax me like that, I want representation. I want to have my say (actually my lawyers say ) If everyone would fight speeding fines, it would make it a lot less attractive to these municipalities who think it's just a money tree, there for the harvesting. When they try to harvest on my tree, I try to find a nest of hornets for them to discover. Yes, they might get the money, but it might not be as easy as they were expecting.

Rant over,

you are now returned to your regular programming.

AFARR

scirocco,

V1 = Valentine 1 radar detector (argueably the best out there--I do know of some that will occasionally place higher in testing, but consistently ranks high--and, if I recall properly Valentine will upgrade the unit as new radar tech comes out). Don't need one, as if I get a speed related ticket, it would probably be for not keeping up with traffic in my Exploder.

I would tend toward fighting it--
Go to a lawyer. Should be $50 for a traffic lawyer just to consult. He says "I can win", then pay him and get a clean record.
He says "The judges there are jerks, they will find you guilty regardless"--then you are out the $50 and the fine, but you will know.

I am somewhat under the impression that when someone shows up with a Lawyer (especially for a fairly minor ticket) that the Judge cuts them some leniency--they took a bit of care in hiring a professional (might be different if they were going to suspend your license, get you for DUI, etc.).

If you decide to fight it yourself, just showing up in a Suit, On Time, AND prepared to make a coherent defense might make it work for you without a lawyer (that is a big "Might" however).

Good Luck--I got a (bad) ticket once. An empty (short) school bus changed out of my travel lane (far left of 3 lanes) towards the far right lane--suddenly she swerved back across both lanes (I think--I didn't see it myself--there was a car in the far right lane in her blind spot) onto the shoulder and again into my travel path. Being that traffic had freed up, I was beginning to speed up--while she was doing her swerve, she was braking the whole time. I hit her rear quarter. She lied to the cop and said she never left the travel lane--if I had a witness, she would have been toast. Unfortunately the road was very busy and nobody stopped (Chicago traffic).

CWO4Mann

I have USAA and I know they will add an extra few bucks next renewal period if they are notified. They seem to get fairly current information about moving violations, however. They got my speeding ticket in Nashville (135 in a 30) within a few weeks, and that was about 10 years ago.

Why not go to court and ask for driver training school or community service instead of the points? I always advised my clients when I was working with the Juvenile Court to do that -- and most times would go with them. Community Service might be 10 hours someplace picking up trash. Driver school is usually a few lectures and horror videos all mumbled in a sonambulant tone.

If you were cited for HOV violation in VA, that is a moving violation worth 3 points. You can call the CT DMV and ask them if your license has any points against it.

The last time I was stationed in the DC area I had CT plates and a license and lived in VA. I got a good one on the BW Parkway once -- 90 in the only 45 zone they had. ANother time right at the 295 ramp to Bolling AFB the Air Police clocked me in my 280Z at 50+ coming up the road to the front gate. Those were both federal tickets and the points didn't get transferred.

Insurance companies usually hold the points information for at least 3 years if there are no more.

When I had my DUI on my Honda 305 (100+ slide, me under a dumpster and the bike into the Anacostia River) I didn't have insurance or a motocycle license and my old roommate's license plate ... but I managed to crawl away before the cops got there ... left for Vietnam the next month so I got lucky on that one. Honda 305 was a bitch on the turns ...

Cheers

blau928

Hey Aaron,

I can't say how things will turn out in MD. I have an attorney on retainer in CA for those purposes.. In fact, he told me to get a redar detector as it was cheaper than his fees, and I bought the V1. I have the remote display as well, so only I can see it go off. It also has arrows and can track up to 5-6 different sources including Laser.

Anyway, it has saved me on numerous times, and has paid for itself countless times over...

Suggestion. Spend the $500 for a V1, learn how to use it, and keep your eyes WIIIDDDDEEEEE open for the troopers. You will see that after a bit, you will get to know when the threat of radar is real, and when it's not..

Your experience may be different, but I have found one truth. If the trooper decides to give you a ticket, you are going to get stopped, and get a ticket. nothing will save you from this... Nothing.. Lawyers and time off for court is expensive. So, if it's a cost issue, be preventive, and "see the troopers" before they see you..

Cheers,

FlyingDog

Keep in mind that MD is the only state in the country that does not have a computer database for other states and insurance companies to access.

JPTL

Let me say this: You may have been speeding, but you weren't driving faster than the flow of traffic. Anybody doing 55 in the PG portion of the Beltway is either running out of gas, has a flat, is driving such a p.o.s. that it can't go faster, or is from the midwest somewhere. Anybody who's lived in this area for a few years will agree with me on that.
First off, regardless of how you pursue this, I'd immediately get your driver's license & registration changed to Maryland if you're now a resident. If you do decide to take this to court, and the judge sees that you made the change just prior to your day in court, it won't work in your favor..trust me.
You'd better assume that it does and it will. I believe that many eastern states are reciprocal with Maryland. You can find out more at http://www.aamva.org/drivers/drv_compactsNRVC.asp
Second thing is to get a printed, verified copy of your Conn. driving record.
USAA will likely 'adjust' your rates if you have more than one speeding ticket/traffic violation on your record...particularly because you drive a Porsche. They're fair, but Porsche's & speeding tickets are the universal formula for risk.
To answer your question as to whether this is a defendable offense, I'd say probably yes, and if you have a spotless record, I'd say absolutely take the time to fight it in court, and risk the trip without the lawyer...but prepare, prepare, prepare.
If you decide to fight it in court:
A long-winded explanation of why you were speeding isn't going to impress the judge. He's heard it all. You can acknowledge that you were speeding - as evidenced by the officer's radar equipment, but at the same time you can convey that you had no idea that you were doing anywhere near 74. Don't say that you didn't think you were speeding. 56 is speeding. Everybody knows they speed by the letter of the law. Don't make excuses for why you were speeding. Unless your wife was about to give birth, excuses won't get you favor with the judge.
Try to get right to the point without wasting his time...and if you feel you have the chance tactfully say that. You need to stand apart from all the other people in his courtroom who are challenging the generally indisputable radar.
If you have a perfect record, that alone will make you stand apart from 90% of the others on the docket. I'll guess that 74 will be below the average, as well.
I know that area like the back of my hand, and I can tell you a few things that you likely already know:
It's a bad part of town
People haul *** along that stretch of the beltway. 75 mph in the left lane will usually get you in a road rage altercation for going too slowly.
If you dress well, and show some respect in the courtroom, you'll be in the minority (in more ways than one)
AFARR, a 'consult' can be done for free over the phone. That's the lawyer asking the standard questions followed up by "I can get it dismissed" or "I can get the offense reduced" or "Sorry, pal you're s.o.l." (not likely)....but for the atty. to show up in court will be no less than $500 if he's worth a damn.
Good suggestion, however that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Depends on the judge. Some give you considerable credit if you voluntarily do traffic school before the court date. Some want it offered up in court, some don't care at all. I'd be careful in dedicating your time toward something that may not get you anywhere in the eyes of his honor.
In a nutshell, if you have a shaky record (reckless, or anything worse) I'd suggest that you suck it up and get a lawyer.
If you have only one infraction/a couple of points on your record, I'd be on the fence as to whether or not to get a lawyer....depends on how you feel you can appear in front of the judge.
If you have a spotless record in the last 3 years, absolutely fight it.
If you defend yourself, stress your excellent record (if you have one). Start your defense with it, and end it with it. If you have no violations on your record, you can say that you're a careful, considerate, non-distracted driver who doesn't speed.
You can then get to the point...that you're not going to attempt to challenge the accuracy of the radar equipment, or the methods of it's use, but that you were unaware that you were traveling at the rate of speed that the officer claims. You are from Connecticut, and you find that a safe practice is to drive with the flow of traffic. Where you're from, that's generally near the posted speed limit. You were traveling with the flow of traffic when you were pulled over. You had no idea that the flow of traffic in that portion of 495 is well in excess of the posted speed limit (that is a fact that the judge has to acknowledge). Now you do.
I'd finish by saying that you have since traveled that section of highway, and you now realize that traffic moves at a high and dangerous rate of speed. You now travel in the right lane in observance of the posted speed limit. And stress your perfect record (if you have one), and maybe the negative repercussions that points on your license will have on your family's insurance.
One last suggestion: If you decide to go it alone, you're obviously going to be scheduling your 'day in court'. You should plan to get there an hour or two early. You may be able to find out which judge is hearing your case ahead of time...otherwise, you'll see it on the docket when you get there. Chances are, he'll be hearing traffic cases prior to your hour. Sit in on the cases before yours. You'll get to know the judge, where he's coming from, what offends him, what he wants to hear, what he doesn't, etc.
Good luck!

Fogey1

USAA -
They haven't cared about most of my tickets and I assume they knew. OTOH, it's been a while and they've been well spaced for the last twenty years (unlike the twenty before). They have speciofically told me that one a year (IIRC) won't change a rate.

Defensive Driving School -
A great alternative, a pretty boring day. No record. Check the yellow pages. If there are lots of listings for schools the judge probably has little or even no discretion. Often you're statutorily allowed if you fall within certain parameters. My last one was a comedy school with pizza.

Fight It -
I've won at least 4 cases because the cop didn't show and the judge dismissed. Also, this sounds like a defensible case. I won a radar case once because I had a witness that I was getting passed by a garbage truck, a much bigger target.

Search out Ron H's posts and read his speeding posts. Especially the latest thread on an appellate win based on inadequate engineering studies. He's doing great work standing up to the revenuers.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/221197-dr-ron-appeals-court-win-printthread.html

There have been Maryland threads on this and the email list.

Valentine 1 is a great investment.

silverbullet

I always volunteer to do community service. Usually end up in a thrift store or something. No points on record or insurance. You have to pay $25. Well worth it in my opinion.
~Josh

Bill Ball

If you make more than $75 a day and your rates are not in jeopardy, then going to court is not worth your time. In CA we have "trial by written declaration". That allows you to present your case in a one page letter. That might be worth your time, if available. I checked on my insurance and found the violation would up my rates $10 a year for a couple of years. So, I decided that going to court definitely was not worth the time and trouble. I did write the letter using some advice from ticketassassin.com. Still found guilty.

Ron_H

First, etch this into your mind: You are accused of a crime against this society. You are not guilty until you have been proven guilty in a court, and then not until you agree to lay down and accept that judgement. If you wish, you may appeal that in the higher courts.

Next, the officer is the state's only witness. He must:
1) show up in court. If he does not, your case will probably be dismissed.
2) present his case AND justify his credentials to make such an accusation. Some of those credentials must be founded upon legally obtained data and procedure and legally correct equipment and training to operate that equipment. If he fails any of those requirements, he is not a competent witness and your case must and probably will be dismissed.

You have the right to seek the government's evidence against you in time to prepare for trial. The government doesn't like to give you or anyone else evidence in advance because then it costs them more money than the fine. PIA for them. And they may not have any well founded evidence at all. No surprise here that they are operating illegally. They may offer you a plea bargain in lieu of furnishing evidence. If it keeps your license and reputation clean, and your insurance clear, take it and walk away, and get a doll into which to stick pins for revenge. If they don't and they also don't respond to your request for their foundation and evidence, you may ask the court to dismiss the charge and it will probably be dismissed (so long as you follow proper procedure). If you receive the evidence you requested and it appears to be legally defective, or if any of your legitimate request are not granted, you can point out to the court that the evidence is lacking any legally sound foundation or adherence to legal requirements. If you support your request with researched data and present it properly, you are likely to walk away free and the bear and DA will have egg on their faces. Part of the task in establishing the admissability of the evidence could depend on your questioning of the officer. Do your homework, both at the local law library (precedure, case law, time constraints and rules of court). Be succint and to the point.

If you do appear in court, DO NOT ADMIT GUILT. This system is adversarial. You are your only friend in that room. Do NOT forget that under any circumstances.

Now, the next thing is to research the following link: type in National Driver's License Compact, and you will find a list of states that share information. Decide if you are at risk if you are convicted.

I commend your attitude and restraint with the officer. And your immediate adoption of a defensive stance by recording anything you can remember of the incident immediately following same. The officer probably did the same, but since you were such a nice guy, he just may not make many notes, and that will definitely be in your favor. But you didn't admit guilt, which may not make his day very enjoyable; that is his goal and it wasn't achieved.

Call your state's department of transportation or whatever name it is and find the engineering dept. Ask them if there are any engineering studies which have been performed on that section of roadway and when they were performed. They may tell you they don't know what you are talking about, but keep working your way up even to your state senator until you find them; they are required by Federal law. If your state claims it doesn't perform them then see the next paragraph. You should ask for them anyway in your discovery motion.

Contact this guy: chad@hwysafety.com and tell him your story. If you can't find any engineering studies, tell him that and make his day. He may decide to help you. Listen to him. He is effective.

Next, resolve to fight this with all your energy without blinking . As was stated, if everyone fought back, the system would vaporize. Think that is bad? Guess again. You would be wrong. It is killing us a few at a time everyday and the goons know it, and so does your insurance company. Great way to raise rates for an activity they can't prove is dangerous and for which no damage has actually occured, just assumed might. Think about how many times per day the speed limits are violated and if their assertions were true, the carnage on the highways would be immeasureable. It isn't. In fact proof exists that as the speed increases, the accident rate decreases.

Have a nice day.