Drewster67

Don - Just curious how you came to this conclusion?

Not trying to bust your stroker - Im just a rookie and would like to know all the facts - If Hoosiers are not what they are "meant" to be - Then Ill switch to Toyos?.

Any info would be greatly appreciated

John Veninger

He is talking about Hoosiers vs real race slicks

Drewster67

Forgive my ignorance but I still dont understand? Arent Rs303/304 real race slicks?


TIA

John Veninger

Nope, they are "DOT" tires. Real race slicks are even sticker!

Mark Anderson

This is usually a question best left to Kibort but I will give you a quick run down from my view on qualifing order.

1. Bob Stefonowitz sp? 911 turbo very light and very fast. Usually king here
2. Loren Beggs 996gt3rs converted to Turbo. He just sold one for $350k
3. Dan Davis 911 turbo- I wish I had just his engine budget $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
4. Robert Dalyrumple 911 twin turbo
5. Jeff Melnick 911 twin turbo
all the above have atleast 650 hp and weigh 2200-2500 lbs
6. Dwayne Dement 996 cup used in Speedvision World Challenge
7. Me
8.Burt Smith 996 cup
9. Joe Fan
10 Steve Goldman 996 cup
Cant remember the rest but there were about 25 cars in the race. I don't think there is anybody above that would trade their car for both Joes and mine as they are all worth more than $100k ea

Black Sea RD

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the quick run down and all I can say is WOW! Turbo 996GT3RS? Never heard of this, I thought the GT3RS was fast enough NA. I guess there can never be enough HP though... Just puts an exclamation point on what you and Joe are doing for the 928 community!

Kind regards,
Constantine

(QUOTE=mark anderson]This is usually a question best left to Kibort but I will give you a quick run down from my view on qualifing order.

1. Bob Stefonowitz sp? 911 turbo very light and very fast. Usually king here
2. Loren Beggs 996gt3rs converted to Turbo. He just sold one for $350k
3. Dan Davis 911 turbo- I wish I had just his engine budget $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
4. Robert Dalyrumple 911 twin turbo
5. Jeff Melnick 911 twin turbo
all the above have atleast 650 hp and weigh 2200-2500 lbs
6. Dwayne Dement 996 cup used in Speedvision World Challenge
7. Me
8.Burt Smith 996 cup
9. Joe Fan
10 Steve Goldman 996 cup
Cant remember the rest but there were about 25 cars in the race. I don't think there is anybody above that would trade their car for both Joes and mine as they are all worth more than $100k ea[/QUOTE]

Gnarly 928

Hoosiers Vs Race rubber....Hoosiers are DOT approved for highway use, race slicks are not. Hoosiers have much stiffer sidewalls, like most DOT "r" compound tires such as Toyo, Yoko, Kuhmo, etc. I run sometimes in a class called ITE with the SCCA. It calls for" DOT tires only". Porsche Club also has a seperate class for DOT tires.. -S class. Some of the 928 guys back east run GT2-S, as opposed to GT2-R. On a given day, when I run both classes with my car, back to back, I have found about 3 seconds slower lap times using Hoosiers or Yoko A-O32s or Kuhmos or Michelin Club sports, all DOT with R-compound...The DOT R compounds are significantly faster than pure street tires, yes, but they are not race tires in the sense that pure racing tires are...made only for racing, without any compromise at all. No one, given a choice by the rules, would choose Hoosiers over real slicks, unless they wanted to lose..
Hope that helps..the Hoosiers DO look a lot faster than a sporty street tire, and they are similar looking to slicks, but much harder compound and stiffer sidewalls give them significantly less grip.
Don Hanson

mark kibort

Don, most of what you say is true, but lets get a very consistant driver (ie Mark or myself) and watch what happens with times vs different types of tires. Mark Anderson ran on DOTs in speedGT 1:35.1 at laguna. his very best unlimited tire time has been 1:34. The SpeedGT drivers in the top porsche 996 cup car with the engine upgrades, runs..... get this....... 1:31.xx ON DOTs. maybe real slicks are worth 1 second or so, but now much more. want more proof, look at anderson at Sears point. (you were there) Mark ran 1:43.1 with his best slicks. He then ran in speedGT at sears point with DOTs and ran 1:44.xx. BUT, get this, it was the long turn 7 configuation, and thats 2 seconds longer. so, with the short turn 7 (normal track) Mark could run 1:42.xx on dots, a time equal to his slick time. DOTs take a real good driver to make them work well. they slide quite a bit, but still have lots of grip. we are not talking about my situation with over-cooked hoosiers (3 seconds slower) as mark anderson has also found 2 seconds by just switching out bad tires. we are talking about over heatcycled race tires.

For you east coast guys, the speedGT guys run 2:14.5 at Road America (audi 2004) on dots.
if you think the audis at 3500lbs could run 3 seconds faster with a real slick, (ie a 2:11) you have do some more statistical analysis. For the most part, what we have seen, and we have seen a lot of this over the years. true street tires are about 5-6 seconds slower, real slicks vs good DOT tires is only about 1 second or so. Im sure anderson would LOVE to think that after speedGT Laguna running 1:35.1 with DOT tires, that he could run 1:32-3 on slicks. Let me tell you folks, it wont happen, and Mark will tell you that too!

MK

mark kibort

Don, now that we got you here, when is the beast going to debut?????? we may be at Thunderhill for the last SCCA race of the season in late october. in fact, you could do this and then the week after run with anderson and fan at sears point. Is the car ready??
MK

Drewster67

Thanks Gents for the feedback.

Gnarly 928

Yo, I may make the PRC race at Sears. I am sending in an entry for that race on the hopes that I will be done and sorted out by then, anyhow. I have two more bicycle races to go in my season before I'll start seriously with the car. Right now, I have much time invested into bicycle conditioning and don't want to lose that before my season's final event, the first weekend in Oct. down in St. George, Utah. .4 different style races where I'll again see all the older gents who have been besting me in my age category at various races around all summer. 2-6 hours per day on the bike doesn't leave me much time to get anything done on the car, and missing training time on the bike is not an option if I want to race well..so I have the car sidelined for right now.
On Hoosiers/slicks: Glad you are able to run 'so fast' on your Hoosiers, consistently, Mr Kibbort. But whether it's 3 seconds, two seconds, or half a second, DOT tires will not beat race tires, even the used ones Mark A., Joe F. and I used to be able to buy for cheap. (otherwise, why would there be tire-specific classes with slower times?) Just imagine how fast you coujld be on 'real' race tires, once you got used to them! Have you ever even tried running slicks on your Holbert car, or driven them much on Marks car? Especially brand new slicks? (I bet Stephanowitz or the other POC hotshoes in their 1-2 hundred K$ race cars are NOT running used tires, Hoosiers or slicks) Race tires are just about the same cost as a set of Hoosiers or Michelins, with lots more grip. I have found up to 3 seconds slower laps on DOTs, running the two different types of tires, same car, same track, same day at perhaps 30 races in a few seasons of racing. Not every race every session, every set of tires, just ballpark 'bench-racing' figures, but valid, nonetheless.
Hope to see ya all on the track soon..
Don Hanson

Richard S

Don, maybe you need racing slicks on your bike ....

Good luck,
Rich

mark kibort

Great! Ill try and make sears. it kind of depends on the championship points race with SCCA , as if i need the points, i may do there season ending race at t hill the weekend before. in that case, i may just come out and watch!

anway,as far as race tires vs hoosiers, no doubt their are much better. Im just saying if you work a good new DOT tire well, you can run within a second or so of a slick time. in top levels of racing, this is an eternity. no way do you save 3 seconds that you found consistantly. often, guys that are used to slicks will see 3 seconds until they push these DOTs hard! and they can be pushed, but it takes a high level of skill and tuning to do this. cars tuned to slicks will not run as well on DOTs, and thats probably what you are seeing. when whas the last time your supension saw shock dyno, your chassis saw a wind tunnel, your car was driven by a top pro? there are many factors, and i dont doubt that you saw 3 seconds, but you wont if you got the right set of DOTs and your driving and chassis is tuned for it. again, look at the top pros at laguna, infinion, etc. same drivers, same chassis of cars, running SpeedGT and then driving ALMS GT2, Porsche supercup race, or Grand Am cup GT . the times are usually only 1 second apart for the tires. thats if the 300lbs on a cup car running speed GT vs ALMS GT2 doesnt do Anything! See Henzler, Liddel, and other top guys
that do this often. 1 second for the RA1s is all you see. Now,its very common to see hacks do tire tests and get 6 second variance on the same TYPE of DOT tires, let alone DOT vs slick!

like you i have seen 2-3 second variance on a "bad" set of tires and so has anderson. but apples to apples. good , new DOT hoosier /RA1/Kumho will run pretty close to the 1 second slower vs a slick with a top pro.
another data point. look at scotty white. he ran a flier 1:38.0 in a new stock viper in T1 last month. (as he predicted when they finally got their T1 vet style suspension approved) before that , they were running about .5 seconds slower than me! anyway, 1:38.0 on a Kumho V710. it felt to the touch like wet bubble gum after a session (new and just run and a pretty interesting compound) im sure they are even closer to a slick. remember, scotty white and Cindy had to run 3700lbs with driver!!!!!!! now, by your 2-3 second conversion, here is a stock viper , with a suspension . Loose the 600lbs!!, put on an complete factory race car aero package, trick Moton suspension, lower the car 2" and not even adding the 50 or so HP that the competition coupe runs, and what do you get?
Ill give you 2 seconds for the weight and 1 seconds for the aero package and suspension dropping that time to 1:35 (same as Mark anderson on slicks this weekend and the same quiet exhaust system and funny enough, same rear wheel hp too of 440-450 at the rear wheels) now if this viper could gain 2-3 seconds with slicks it would run 1:32-33 and that just is not possible. a 1:34 yes. so, its contrary to popular belief, but more folks are recognizing that todays DOT tires are really only about 1 second slower than slicks.

again anderson has been pretty consistant at laguna. he runs 1:34 with slicks no exhaust restrictions and 1:35 with DOTs. thats the diff. same thing at sears. minus additional adrenaline of the pro races, call it possibly 1.5 seconds max. Mark has never scared up a time 2-3 seconds faster than his DOT times at laguna or sears. its alwasy been in the 1 second range. as it has been for supercup times vs supercup cars on DOTs at speedGt events at the same tracks as the supercup races with top pros.

Mk

mark kibort

http://www.porscheclub.com/events/Ev...ar/SE20-2.html

results posted.

So, the race was offically called after lap 6????? (*due to those idiots not coming in on the black flag directed at them?)

I saw the times from the sheet before this posting, it had Joe fan at 1:35.7 vs Mark Anderson at 1:35.2. and Joe was right behind mark at the finish. they must have not deq'ed the cars in front of Joe, or joe made some big passes before the end of the race after the un-official restart. Joe??? what happened? eitherway, awesome time for joe, even if its unofficial. now, the red and yellow car are pretty close!!

do you see where a sub 1:41-2 would fit. the ole holbert car would have least been in the 12-13th position. everyone was pretty slow, even the guy i usually battle with with the sub GT3 cup car (993 cup car) Frankel at 1:44.xx. too bad i cant run in this group either, due to no fuel cell. (but a of course the guy in the orange group running 1:38 doesnt need a fuel cell! POC, has to get it together!!
Mk

PS, why is Joe Fan in GT2 and Mark Anderson in GT1 ???

Mark Anderson

Yes it is very confusing. They did stop the race after 6 laps then they did a resart and we ran for a few more. During that last segment Joseph made some big improvements but they later made the 6 lap point the offical final standing. The person who made that decision was in the race and lost several position after the black flag.. Go figure.