Sierra Shark

You know that someone like "Red UFO" or some other fun loving demented sole is going to use that picture for their avatar.

Nicole

Ha - there you said it!

The Crown Vics are designed for grannys driving to Bingo, but not for handling well during 130mph chases. They probably never saw aerodynamic testing, and have a suspension setup from the 60ies, headrests so low they are useless in an accident, and fuel tanks that are vulnerable in accidents. Sure, they have been modified, but if you start with a flawed design, the effect of mods are limited. No wonder you are nervous - I would be, too!

You are putting yourself and others at a lot more risk than me driving 86 in a 70 zone (my last ticket). My biggest risk is that in the US I have to watch my radar detector and scan the surroundings for police, rather than focusing on driving...

I've done over 140 in a 928 (driving) and 155 in a 968 Convertible (passenger, top up) and was not a hint nervous. In fact, in the 968 I did not even realize we were that fast (in the 928 I had the speedometer tell me). Both cars behaved like they were going on rails, because suspension and aerodynamics are set-up accordingly.

About accident severity: Yes, there can be severe accidents on a German Autobahn. But so can be on an American hiway. Colliding with a truck at lower speed can be worse than flying off the street at higher speed - it always depends on the situation. And despite sensational media coverage - there are not that many high speed accidents in Germany.

You probably know already that America has a lot more accidents and deaths per mile driven than Germany. You probably also know that German Autobahns always have guardrail center dividers, and guardrails on the right side wherever there is an obstacle nearby.

The question is whether it is safer to drive in an environment where the cars are properly maintained, the drivers know what they are doing, and trucks are only allowed 80 km/h (about 50mph), the lanes are about a foot wider, and the roads are better maintained. There are few pickup trucks, and I have never seen one of those lose things on the Autobahn (here I've seen them lose plastic chairs, boxes, tarps, matrasses, etc.)

Either way, I believe most freeway speed limits here are unjustified from a safety standpoint - all they do is give law enforcement the opportunity to pull over anybody at any time. Because very few people stick to those unrealistic limits.

Why else do we - the [self-declared] leading country in the world - have some of the lowest speed limits in all the Western countries? Why can't we control our cars at speed as others can? Why do we still have more accidents?

Usually I think of Americans as optimists. But for some reason, when it comes to driving and speed many rather believe it can't be done than figuring out a way how it could be done safely.

Sorry, you got me all worked up here...


BTW: I brake for Crown Victorias.

FlyingDog

Those pictures are great. Rennlist front page material!No wonder you are afraid of driving fast. Crown Vics are POSes. I used to laugh when the cops I worked with would talk about the Crown Vics going 136, but the 'little' cars (Intrepids) that they hated so much were governed at 122. I pointed out that an Intrepid would have a better chance of catching me since it accelerates much faster and it can actually turn at speeds greater than 65mph.

PS: Crown Vics are a big reason for the huge rise in cop car accidents which many years kill more than guns.

pewter82

I must clarify...California has some of the most dangerous drivers and most accidents due to the fact there are more drivers in California. Flying off the road or being invloved in a collision are both bad, and until YOU have worked a fatality accident I would hold my comments. The human body "flys" apart ..it doesn't care what kind of accident its in.
Crown Vics are big enough to do the job and can take a hige amount of damage and keep going so yes they are no put together as well as our Porsche's but its a work horse of the industry.
The Crown Vic is the reason for the huge rise in cop car accidents???? WTF are you talking about, Matt?

Ron_H

I am biting my lip. I will not get into this. I will not get into this. I will not get into this. Note: As the speed limit decreases, the accident rate increases. Facts, not dreaming. I will not furnish them, they are there and you can find them. And you should know it.

Nicole, as you are looking all around and watching your V-1, guess what you are doing differently than 97% of the other drivers out there? You are being much more aware of your surroundings which equates to........a safer more aware driver who is more alert. The rest of the idiots are poking along in a trance thinking the speed limit wil protect them, so they don't need to take any responsibility for their own safety. After all, hasn't their uncle sam already crash tested their absurd-mobile? And no one would dare set the speed limit faster than what is "safe" would they? So why should they worry about it. I am reminded of the woman who wants to sue Uncle George because her son who enlisted in the military was shot during combat. If you expect to be "safe" all your life and eliminate all risk, stay home in bed and hide while you atrophy into a blob of de-evolved jelly. There are many collisions that occur at far greater speed than any legal limit anywhere in America and the occupants walk away from the wreck. My own mother was sandwiched in her 280 SL and both ends of the car were flattened against the tub of the passenger compartment and she merely opened the door and stepped out. Facts, not infantile dreams please. Facts tell us otherwise.

The answer to Nicole's question is that no one wants to take personal responsibility for their own actions (spelled well being) and defers to some outside "authority" or "supervisory control" . We need to rid ourselves of our endless supply of Pampers, crawl out of our cribs and take control of our lives.
In doing so, we will surely stub our toes now and then, but we will learn to stay alive and alert. At least the ones who survive and they will be more fit. And we will cease blaming accidents on intangibles such as "speed" or "excessive speed" and own up to the real cause. Speed didn't cause the wreck, someone didn't operate the machine properly or skillfully, or didn't maitain it properly, or it was not designed properly. Speed did nothing. Speed is relative. There are cars that are driven by members of this forum at more than 3 times the legal limit anywhere in America on 2 lane roads for sustained periods with no ill effects other than wasted fuel and bald tires and worn brake pads. Wake up. If an object has feathers, a beak, waddles, has webbed feet, floats around in a pond, lays eggs, quacks, it is probably a duck. It is not a tree. Why do you believe people who tell you things that intuitively seem untrue? One bear recently, after traveling over 125 + to catch up to me told me it was not safe to drive over 65 mph in my 928, designed for much greater speeds than he had just traveled in his sorry excuse for a patrol vehicle. That 928 has not only been designed but also tested for such speeds over and over again and it is expected that people will drive such a car at those speeds all day long. (No, I was not going 125; he was). Sheesh!! Give me a break. The USA, land of infantality.

Aw there, you made me get into this. I'm outta here. 'Nuff said. I'm going to go sit on a block of ice and cool off. Sheesh !!!!

DANdeMAN

Not according to copywrite laws...AND I do reserve the right to use it as MY avatar.

FlyingDog

Look up some of the lawsuits departments have filed against Ford. There are suspension problems, false advertising problems with respect to what the Interceptor package includes, and despite being such a large car the crash protection is seriously lacking. As soon as a lawsuit is filed Ford refuses to sell cars to that department. Since Ford is pretty much the only game in town (How many Intrepids, Impalas, and Chargers do/will you see?) bureaucrats have a habit of pushing the lawsuits under the table when it comes time to order new cars.

I was at an autocross in a town where some friends and I knew a few cops. When the cops came by to check out the event, everybody encouraged them to drive. They said it was against department policy. They commented later that it only became department policy after the Caprices started getting replaced with Crown Vics. They used to take the DARE Caprice out to drag races and autocrosses. Due to the sharp rise in accidents after buying the Crown Vics, all of that ended. Most of the towns around here now have Explorers and PT Cruisers for DARE cars instead of Cameros and Caprices now that they can't take them racing anymore.

DonT

Here's another thread that went all to sh*t.

Nicole

Jason: Let me say it again that fatal accidents are rare on German Autobahns. The vast majority of fatal accidents in Germany happen in cities or on rural hiways. Most Autobahn accidents happen during heavy traffic when nobody could even dream to go all that fast.

Yes, people can disintegrate in an accident, and it's not a pretty sight. But that's a matter of the IMPACT, not the speed they were travelling at in the first place.

Let me give you an example:

If you go at 150 mph and lose control over your car, start spinning, and bounce around between the guard rails, you have multiple small impacts that help slow the vehicle to a stop. This recently happened to a German 928 owner and he walked away with a few bruises at the top of his head.

If you hit a truck at 50 mph, you are not going to have a soft landing - because trucks don't crumple. So, suddenly you are hitting a hard objetct that will stop your car very fast, in a very short distance.

This is all simple, basic physics, not rocket science.

Nobody advocates to pass a truck with an extreme difference in speed.
Nobody advocates to drive fast in rain, fog, ice or snow.
Nobody advocates to drive irresponsibly fast for the conditions, or irresponsible in any other way.

Not in Germany, and not here.

But what I and some others advocate is to put more responsibility into the hands of the drivers. Train them better to begin with, and let them make decisions based on the situation, not a standard set of national or state rules that might not apply in a particular area at a particular time.

THAT is what currently makes them rely on others, rather than taking care of themselves. THAT is what causes the to drop alertness. THAT is causing lots of dangerous situations and accidents - not the speed in general.

I once read an article by a famous American automobile journalist. In his research he found that the national statistics for speed related accidents included ALL accidents where a car had been travelling at speeds higher than the set limit, regardless of whether that speed had any influence on the cause of the accident. So we do know that we are not told the truth about the connection of speed and accidents - we are brainwashed by government officials and lobbyists, some of which don't even drive (e.g. Ralf Nader).

And lastly: I have recently done some project work for a retiring traffic police officer. And even he tells me that he can't drive 65 on the freeway in his M3...

DANdeMAN

Apparently, no mather how "pretty" my pics are.
It's the first time one of my threads goes sideways like that. Just because of a double take on the speedo in one of the pics, thous not really OT.
I hope it won't be a 10 page thing...
So I'll and go to bed.

Nicole

My apologies, Dan and Don!

Yes, the pictures are pretty - that's why I read the tread in the first place.