928 maintenance cost relative to a 911 turbo
07-18-2005, 12:09 PM
#16
USMarine
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Originally Posted by UKKid35
...am I right in thinking that RMS failure is neither predictable nor preventable?
07-18-2005, 12:19 PM
#17
USMarine
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Originally Posted by cobalt
Dropping an engine out of a 911 is not too difficult.... it too can be done by a novice. It takes between 8-10 hours to drop a 911 engine ... clean and check for other issues and reinstall. I believe that is about the same time to do a TB replacement.
THIS IS CLEARLY RELATIVE TO THE YEAR OF THE 911 you are driving. It is NOT...I REPEAT "NOT" the same for all years, particularly as you get in the 993 to 996 model years. Take from an owner of these models... this is not for the novice.
I believe the question was limited to the 964/993 turbos. The RMS issue is only a problem on the 996's and rarely affects the turbos, GT2 & GT3's. Yes for those buying a 996 the RMS issue can be an issue at any time without warning and I have heard of some having the problem multiple times.
The 996TT engine for the most part is the the same engine in the 993 (It is not the same as the 996 most parts are not even swappable) subsequently the 996TT is befallen with the same issues that the aircooled 993 suffered i.e. carbon build-up in the intake manifold that requires the engine to be dropped and the intake assy glass beaded.
THIS IS CLEARLY RELATIVE TO THE YEAR OF THE 911 you are driving. It is NOT...I REPEAT "NOT" the same for all years, particularly as you get in the 993 to 996 model years. Take from an owner of these models... this is not for the novice.
I believe the question was limited to the 964/993 turbos. The RMS issue is only a problem on the 996's and rarely affects the turbos, GT2 & GT3's. Yes for those buying a 996 the RMS issue can be an issue at any time without warning and I have heard of some having the problem multiple times.
The 996TT engine for the most part is the the same engine in the 993 (It is not the same as the 996 most parts are not even swappable) subsequently the 996TT is befallen with the same issues that the aircooled 993 suffered i.e. carbon build-up in the intake manifold that requires the engine to be dropped and the intake assy glass beaded.
07-18-2005, 01:14 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by DoubleNutz
THIS IS CLEARLY RELATIVE TO THE YEAR OF THE 911 you are driving. It is NOT...I REPEAT "NOT" the same for all years, particularly as you get in the 993 to 996 model years. Take from an owner of these models... this is not for the novice.
Originally Posted by DoubleNutz
The 996TT engine for the most part is the the same engine in the 993 (It is not the same as the 996 most parts are not even swappable) subsequently the 996TT is befallen with the same issues that the aircooled 993 suffered i.e. carbon build-up in the intake manifold that requires the engine to be dropped and the intake assy glass beaded.
The carbon issues is a problem on these engines not on the 964 turbo. This as with older Ferraris is due to people who lug their engines. I drive my cars hard and believe in using every bit of the engines rpm's. If you drive the car properly and bring it into the higher rpm range, which is were these cars come to life, you should not suffer the dreaded carbon build up problem.
So in fairness to what you say a 993TT may be a bit pricey for repairs compared to the 964 Turbo but if driven properly it should not be much more and in all the 964Turbo and the 928 is pretty much comparable except the 928 does have the issues with the electrical gremlins and minor nuisance issues that do not befall the turbo models. So IMO it is a wash.
07-19-2005, 11:42 AM
#19
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Since when was buying a P-car just a logical decision? Its good to do your homework, but by the car you want to drive. The more I drive both my Porsche's, the more they grow on me, and that is not to say that it was not love at first sight. Either way you know you'll enjoy whatever you buy. That said, I also want a 911 to join the 951 and 928 at some stage.
07-19-2005, 02:13 PM
#20
Originally Posted by ebs
Since when was buying a P-car just a logical decision? Its good to do your homework, but by the car you want to drive...Either way you know you'll enjoy whatever you buy...
07-19-2005, 03:04 PM
#21
USMarine
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Originally Posted by cobalt
The 964 turbo engine is not that difficult to drop. Other than the initial removal of the IC it is straight forward like the earlier 911 engines. I did my first engine drop on a 911 when I was 17, piece of cake. I don't know first hand about the 993 turbo engines but the C4's are not a problem for a novice with a good mechanical mind. At least I find most of this to be relatively easy and straight forward. I can't see the turbo engines being much more difficult than the C4 or 964 turbo engine.
To say that the 996TT engine is the same as the 993 is not entirely correct. Yes, the 996TT engine uses the same rotating assembly as the 993TT. The case casting and oil pump come from the 964. The journals are different sizes and then of course the obvious changes regarding the water jacketing.
The carbon issues is a problem on these engines not on the 964 turbo. This as with older Ferraris is due to people who lug their engines. I drive my cars hard and believe in using every bit of the engines rpm's. If you drive the car properly and bring it into the higher rpm range, which is were these cars come to life, you should not suffer the dreaded carbon build up problem.
So in fairness to what you say a 993TT may be a bit pricey for repairs compared to the 964 Turbo but if driven properly it should not be much more and in all the 964Turbo and the 928 is pretty much comparable except the 928 does have the issues with the electrical gremlins and minor nuisance issues that do not befall the turbo models. So IMO it is a wash.
To say that the 996TT engine is the same as the 993 is not entirely correct. Yes, the 996TT engine uses the same rotating assembly as the 993TT. The case casting and oil pump come from the 964. The journals are different sizes and then of course the obvious changes regarding the water jacketing.
The carbon issues is a problem on these engines not on the 964 turbo. This as with older Ferraris is due to people who lug their engines. I drive my cars hard and believe in using every bit of the engines rpm's. If you drive the car properly and bring it into the higher rpm range, which is were these cars come to life, you should not suffer the dreaded carbon build up problem.
So in fairness to what you say a 993TT may be a bit pricey for repairs compared to the 964 Turbo but if driven properly it should not be much more and in all the 964Turbo and the 928 is pretty much comparable except the 928 does have the issues with the electrical gremlins and minor nuisance issues that do not befall the turbo models. So IMO it is a wash.
By the way, the carbon intake build has nothing to do with the way you drive the 993. It has everthing to do with a pre-heating element in the intake that heats the intake air when starting the car. This intake heating motor can be heard on any 993 during a fresh start of the car in the morning. This is the cause of the carbon buildup and ultimately the dreaded and menancing "CHECK ENGINE" lite.
07-19-2005, 04:29 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by DoubleNutz
I can appreciate your experience on the 964 but it is not a 993 or 996 and I have experience in both of these cars. So as it relates to your experience I would say it would be fair of you to limit your advice to that or those cars to which you have actual experience with as I am to mine. I have never owed a 964 and cannot comment on the ease and cost of maintenance applicable to it. I have owned 993's, 996's, and 996TT's.
By the way, the carbon intake build has nothing to do with the way you drive the 993. It has everthing to do with a pre-heating element in the intake that heats the intake air when starting the car. This intake heating motor can be heard on any 993 during a fresh start of the car in the morning. This is the cause of the carbon buildup and ultimately the dreaded and menancing "CHECK ENGINE" lite.
By the way, the carbon intake build has nothing to do with the way you drive the 993. It has everthing to do with a pre-heating element in the intake that heats the intake air when starting the car. This intake heating motor can be heard on any 993 during a fresh start of the car in the morning. This is the cause of the carbon buildup and ultimately the dreaded and menancing "CHECK ENGINE" lite.
Fair enough, although I have worked on 993's and haven't experienced the major differences you are talking about. In fact I have worked on 993's 964's 930's, 911's 914's 928's ranging in most model variants. My least experiance is on the 928 but I am quickly learning.
This is just my experiances with Porsche's. Some models I have restored form the ground up, including entire engine and tranny rebuilds to Concours and factory spec mechanicals given 9.5 out of 10 ratings by profesional mechanics.(I guess I am a novice so to speak, only playing with Porsches for 25+ years now) Yes some things can be a bit more complicated on a 993 but not enough that I would consider it a "done by a professional only" car. I have many friends with 993's and others with 996's. The basic principles are still the same. I will admit I have never worked on 996's although I have driven a bunch. But all my comments were about turbo 964's and 993's as the thread initially addressed.
Regarding the carbon build up. That is interesting that you mention that. I have spoken to numerous people (professional mechanics) and I have heard both sides of the story. More than not I have heard comments that it is more the way it is driven in conjunction with this problem. I don't think there is any clear evidence that points to either (most likely both) that are the contributing factor. So I have been told.
I know you have lots of experience, but then again so do I. We each are allowed our opinions. In this case mine differ from yours. I personally don't see what the big deal is about anything pre 1998. After that too many electronics for my taste and I prefer to deal with mechanical based devices verses computer based like we see on the newer cars. The 993 does start to breach this area but not enough to scare me away from working on them the way these newer cars do.
With the help of Rennlist, as proven by this board amongst others here, if you don't have the experience but a mechanical back ground you can find the answers and fix most all problems without the assistance of a mechanic.
Wish I had this 20 years ago when I had to figure it out by myself the hard way.
