bcdavis

mark kibort

You are not reading carefully enough . try again.

see my inserts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

=m21sniper]"nope? both cars with a similar shaped hp curve (or torque curve) would accelerate exactly the same. and get this, this will blow the minds of all the "torquies" out there. nether one will ever touch their peak torques in a race. both cars will launch, and end up well above max torque and run to redline(passed even max HP) so that both cars will operate at as near max HP as possible."

First of all, in order to achieve engine redline then by definition you are going to hit(then pass) your torque peak. End of story. No room for interpretation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>no, not nessesarily. think about a 5,000rpm launch in a drag, or better yet, a ALMS, or club racer. on a rolling start, you are never at max torque, and if you want to win the race against the same exact car and a good driver, you better never be at max torque, always near max hp as much as you can.

"MEANING, if you have a 5000rpm max hp you would shift at 6000rpm providing you had a 2000rpm drop at the next gear and a perfect bell shapped curve around max HP. (lets assume that both cars have this same shaped curve) the high reving 250ftlb car would have max HP at 10000rpm and have to shift at 11,000rpm to keep its operating range, maximizing the most hp under the curve."

Except that both cars WILL NOT EVER have a similar torque or power curve, by their already defined operating RPM ranges(idle to about 6000rpm vs idle to about 11,000rpm) it's completely impossible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not that far off. i have seen HP torque curves for this type of engine, and they are not that far off the shape of the ones for a high performance 5000rpm max hp engine. the point is this. assume the curves are the same shape, then you can evaluate the point of the discussion. that its not the torque peak of the engine that means anything without speed (RPM) attached to it. go back to my example and try and really think about it.

At 5250rpm the 500/500 will be producing double the torque than the 500/250 is ever capable of producing AT ANY POINT IN IT'S RPM RANGE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>now, i know you need some help here. I know you want to learn it too, so here it goes. through the gear boxes, the 250ftlb max torque engine has double the numerical ratios of the 500ftlb car, BECAUSE its max hp is at 10,000rpm and the other is at 5000rpm. this is a great example because think about it, both cars on a straight going 40mph. one at 4500rpm and the other at 9000rpm, both are going the same speed. (there is that term again!!) both have the same torque to the wheels, although one is half the other as far as engine max torque. the green flag drops, they both run up to passed max HP and shift in to their respective next gear. they are both at 4500rpm and 9000rpm , both are putting the same torque to the wheels, ....... get the idea now??????

That my friend, is not subject to debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>seems this debate is about interpretation of the facts. you seem to be missing a little bit here. Im trying to my best to explain and i dont know why its not sinking in. trust me, ive had this discussion with some pretty smart people that weeks later finally get it.

"both would have identical torque to the driven wheels at any speed. (same gear boxe ratio spreads )"

Wrong. Tell me Mark, at what engine speed will the 500/250 EVER produce 500ft-lbs of flywheel torque?
>>>>>>>>>>>>what part of Flywheel vs driven wheel torque dont you get?
if both cars have 500hp , then the 5000rpm max hp car is making 400ftlbs (guess) and the 10,000rpm car would be making 200ftlbs. through gearing , both are going the same speed, but the gear ratios are 50% different. the spacing proportionately is the same, and the torque to the wheels ends up to be the same. thats how it works !

These cars are geared identically. That means that at it's torque peak in tope gear(1:1) the 500/500 will deliver 2000lbs-ft of torque (assuming no parasitic loss and a 4:1 final drive ratio) to the rear wheels, whereas the 500/250 can at no point match that level of power in top gear with the same final drive ratio. The 500/250 will deliver a maximum of 1000lb-ft of torque at it's torque peak with a 4:1 final drive ratio...exactly half that of the 500/500 powered car.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>again, critical error above. gearing proportionately, not identically. Meaning , both willl have the same speeds in their respective gears all the way to top speed. thought that was implied, my mistake. should have been more clear. so, in your example, the 10,000rpm max HP car would have the 8:1 gearing, and have the same torque to the wheels at any vehicle speed.

what-cha think now?"

I think you're either pulling my leg...or you're crazy. [/QUOTE]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>been doing this too long to be crazy , yet! and, im not pulling anyones leg. you have to really think about the entire picture. this is why guys like bruce augustines papers are so dangerous. it leads folks to look at isolated areas of a system. its not how fast we accelerate in one gear, its the average acceleration through all the gears.
someting to think about: what has the faster rate of acceleration:
max torque in 3rd gear, max HP in 3rd gear or max HP in 2nd gear.

based on the gears of a 928S4 is there any gear that produces max acceleration at max torque at a particular speed vehical speed ? (max torque being 4000rpm and excluding 1st gear)
(kind of a trick question, so think about it)

MK

bcdavis

I think the key is to use a wet system, with equal amounts of NOS and fuel being added at the jet...

Just don't order a dry system ,and you should be fine.

I think NOS, now owned by Holley, I think, actually has an application kit for the 928.
You may have to call them, but it used to be on their website.

Here's another guy with NOS on his s4:

http://members.rennlist.com/clays928/nos.html

mark kibort

It was Nitrous Express and the one that is designed for the 944. there is a guy there that knows his stuff, and got me the right jets for 50 to 100hp shots.

i plummbed it in to the aux air inlet for the AC at the front of the plennum and on the dyno, 50shot was 50 hp and 55ftlbs! mixture was unchanged, actually a bit richer than normal (ie normal 12.5:1 vs 12.2:1 with NOS)

put a foot switch on the dead pedal driver left foot, so the clutch could never be engaged with the NOS being turned on.

Mk

mark kibort

again, more misapplication of the concepts. yes, CVT can be used for that link, and will and would be most common, but if you wanted to use it for a dragster or racer, it could be set at max hp when ever accelerating. it was an example, and an extreme example derived from the reasoning behind close ratios gear boxes. they are designed to let the car operate at as close to max hP as possible., hardly ever seeing max torque, if ever.

=m21sniper]"no, HP is a unit of measure of power. work over time. engine's peak torques are inconsequential(emphasis added). its all about peak HP and again, area under the HP curve used over the operational range."

HP is not a measure of absolute power, torque is.
HP is a measure of force applied over time. Specifically 1 hp is the ability to lift 33,000lb 1 foot in 1 minute(or any applicable combination thereof).

As far as peak torque being completely inconsequential, you are completely wrong, as i have amply demonstrated with several links now. Links which you call 'misleading', but to me, there is nothing misleading about them at all. They are very, very clear in what they are saying, and i find no problem with their conclusions. Indeed, they mimic what i learned in trade school, and they mimic everything i've ever heard anyone knowledgeable in the subject state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not saying they are wrong, just misleading in our discussion about what makes a car accelerate fastest through the gears. (not where the max acceleration is in any particular gear) take the test question i posed in my last post regarding this)

"AGAIN, give me an infinitely variable gear box, and the engine would run right at max HP and stay there until the end of the run, never seeing max torque on the engine"

Infinitely variable transmissions already exist. Subaru introduced them in 1989(Justy). It's called a CVT(Continuously variable transmission), and is chain driven.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt9.htm

BTW, CVTs do not work like you think they do.(check out the RPM to speed graphic in the above link).

RPM increases steadily from idle with vehicle speed, and the vehicle hits it's redline at max vehicle speed. A CVT DOES NOT hold the engine at it's HP(or torque) peak at all times....that's simply not how a CVT works.
Believe me, i've worked on a few of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I used CVT for an example of concept, not application.

Further, acceleration is at it's greatest at the torque peak, end of story. If you disagree, you are quite misinformed.[/QUOTE]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only in a particular gear is acceleration the greatest! however, at a particular speed, the greatest acceleration will be at max hp. (if you can get a gear close to it) THIS IS THE REAL ANSWER YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND. again, you keep on confusing elements of the system as the entire system. if we wanted to pull the most amount of G forces,we would get the car in 1st gear and hit max torque. BUT, if we want to accelerate over a speed range and have a gear box, we will want to operate at max HP as much of the time as possible through the gears.
----the question was: where is the greatest acceleration rate:
2nd gear at max HP, 3rd gear at max torque or 3rd gear at max HP? (you can figure out the appropriate speeds)

Hint: anytime you are at max torque in a 928, you can downshift and have greater acceleration in the next lower gear. when im in a heated battle at laguna seca and want to have most accelerative force going around turn 11, i sometimes use 1st gear from 5000rpm to 6500rpm for that little extra punch.
Not, max torque in 2nd where i usually run most of the race around that turn.
wanna hear it?

http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...G-VIDEOS.shtml
the last video on the page

m21sniper

"no, not nessesarily. think about a 5,000rpm launch in a drag, or better yet, a ALMS, or club racer. on a rolling start, you are never at max torque, and if you want to win the race against the same exact car and a good driver, you better never be at max torque, always near max hp as much as you can."

The 500/500 car makes it's maximum torque at a theoretical 5250rpm. Are you telling me that i'll never be at 5250rpm(or for that matter will never want to be at 5250rpm) if i'm piloting the 500/500 car regardless of the style of race? Cause i can assure you that i'll be zipping right through 5250rpm in every gear... just as i'd be zipping through 10,500rpm(the 500/250s theoretical torque peak) in every gear if i was piloting the 500/250 car.

Forget horsepower, in effect, it's meaningless. Torque is the physical force that moves your car. HP(in it's many versions) is just a measurement of actual force(torque) applied over time. Torque is a force of nature. HP is an arbitrary figure developed for marketing purposes to measure torque applied over time and distance.

That's ALL HP is, an arbitrary measurement of torque delivered over time and distance. Again, 1 hp is 33,000lbs lifted 1 foot in one minute. Horsepower is not a physical force...torque is.

You can determine exactly how your car will perform if you know how much peak torque it makes at it's peak torque engine speed when combined with vehicle weight and gearing.
However, if you do not know the torque peak, you can never determine horsepower, let alone determine how a vehicle will perform.

The fact that there is only one definition of torque, and yet there are at least 4 competing definitions of horsepower (BHP, GHP, SAEHP, RWHP, and i'm sure there's at least one other i'm forgetting) ought to tell you something. It ought to tell you that since the powers that be can't even agree on a standard format of measurement that it's not a scientific measurement at all. As i've said, and as any amount of research will clearly show, HP is a purely arbitrary marketing term.

Of all the various measurements of HP, BHP is the most 'correct', and is the only one that gives a 'true reading' of delivered power.(BHP is the amount of clamping force exerted on a flywheel or driveshaft that is required to stall an engine operating at peak torque). Ironically, it has fallen out of use because manufacturers were stripping off the engine accesories to provide artificially inflated readings, which is what spurred SAE to come up with SAE Net(which is the current standard used by auto manufacturers and is defined as 'power at the tailshift of the transmission with all accesories installed and operating').

"now, i know you need some help here. I know you want to learn it too, so here it goes."

LOL, well, i'm a very patient man(a byproduct of my former occupation), so i'm still listening...even though i think i in fact do have it 'right'.

"again, critical error above. gearing proportionately, not identically."

I thought you said the two cars had identical gearing earlier. If you actually meant proportional(or i misread) well then, YES, that COMPLETELY changes the equation, and i would be in complete agreement.

For the 500/250 to match the 500/500s peak accelerative force it would need exactly double the final drive ratio in any given gear.

"Meaning , both willl have the same speeds in their respective gears all the way to top speed. thought that was implied, my mistake. should have been more clear. so, in your example, the 10,000rpm max HP car would have the 8:1 gearing, and have the same torque to the wheels at any vehicle speed."

THAT i completely agree with.

At 8:1 final drive the 500/250 would produce the EXACT same amount of peak acceleration force as the 500/500 at 4:1.

Totally agreed.

Either i misread you earlier, or you mis-stated what you were thinking. Regardless, the term 'proportional gearing' changes everything....and puts our stars back into perfect alignment.

"based on the gears of a 928S4 is there any gear that produces max acceleration at max torque at a particular speed vehical speed ? (max torque being 4000rpm and excluding 1st gear)
(kind of a trick question, so think about it) "

Sounds like you're inviting me to do a lot more math....dammit.

You've already made me think far too much for one day- i'm well over my quota.

m21sniper

" however, at a particular speed, the greatest acceleration will be at max hp. (if you can get a gear close to it) THIS IS THE REAL ANSWER YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND. again, you keep on confusing elements of the system as the entire system. if we wanted to pull the most amount of G forces,we would get the car in 1st gear and hit max torque."

You're actually contradicting yourself in the above statement.

G force is the physical measurement of the force of acceleration. By definition, if you are pulling maximum Gs, you are accelerating at the fastest possible rate.

Physics tells us that our vehicle will achieve it's maximum momentary acclerative force(Gs) at the engines torque peak.

The reason we rev our engines past our torque peak is because there's still a useful level of torque beyond that peak, and therefore we're using average accelerative force to our benefit. Not only that, but by revving beyond our torque peak we're going to be in a better part of our powerband in the next higher gear when we do shift.

There is however a point at which torque drops to a point where you're better off shifting(which is why i don't rev my car to 7000rpm in second or 3d, even though the engine will physically rev to that RPM reading). After 6500rpm i'm better off in the next higher gear.

"BUT, if we want to accelerate over a speed range and have a gear box, we will want to operate at max HP as much of the time as possible through the gears."

That's the difference between peak and average acceleration force, and again, i agree with your conclusions with the caveat that you change HP to torque...because they're factually correct.

If the word HP had never been invented as a marketing ploy your car would be just as fast....because of torque, a physical force of nature. If your cars engine produced no torque, your car would not move.

Man invented horsepower, mother nature invented torque.

What i'm saying here is that torque is an actual force of nature....HP is not. It is an arbitrary term used to measure torque delivered over time and distance, and it's not even a standard definition. It is however a very cool sounding term, so if you want to use it, by all means, don't let me stop you...i use it too 99% of the time.

m21sniper

BC Davis: Thanx for the link bro.

m21sniper

Mark, thanx for the details on the nitrous system you used.

Does the kit include(or require) some sort of timing retard? Or is that not neccesary because of the cooling effect of the n2o on the aircharge?

As i stated earlier my timing is radically advanced vs stock, and the last thing i want to do is turn my 'freak of nature' 4.7 into a hand grenade...

bcdavis

Probably just best to get an Air/Fuel meter installed, so you can keep tabs of your mixture from the dash.

You can get that installed now, and have it ready for when you run the giggle gas.

If the charge is nice and cold, and the mixture is good, you shouldn't have too many problems.
But if you are running lean now, you will want to richen it up a little before you start adding the gas...

But you'll need an AFM to know.

Quck carl sells a cool mounting setup on his site....

m21sniper

I already run my shark deliberately on the rich side because i advanced the timing so much.

Better safe than sorry.

I'll definitely be adding an AFR gage when i install nitrous. Good sound advice, thanx.

mark kibort

funny that you have used so much advance. when i did some dyno tests, 8 degree over advance, lost 3hp ,but gained 3ftlbs , so i moved it back to 5degrees advance over stock

depending on your advance, you may be ok, and it also depends on the HP shot you are going to us. 50hp, i wouldnt worry too much. more, i would keep the advance closer to stock.

MK

mark kibort

=m21sniper]" however, at a particular speed, the greatest acceleration will be at max hp. (if you can get a gear close to it) THIS IS THE REAL ANSWER YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND. again, you keep on confusing elements of the system as the entire system. if we wanted to pull the most amount of G forces,we would get the car in 1st gear and hit max torque."

You're actually contradicting yourself in the above statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>no contradiciton.. you have to read it more carefully. "at a particular speed" I totally agree the max acceleration in any gear is at max torque, but the max acceleration of the car with the gears maybe in a lower gear at that speed!! this is the key point!



G force is the physical measurement of the force of acceleration. By definition, if you are pulling maximum Gs, you are accelerating at the fastest possible rate.

Physics tells us that our vehicle will achieve it's maximum momentary acclerative force(Gs) at the engines torque peak.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrong. look at the wheel torque at max torque, and max hp of the precedeing gear. the preceding gear will have about 20% more torque to the wheels at max HP! again, further showing the relation of HP to torque.

The reason we rev our engines past our torque peak is because there's still a useful level of torque beyond that peak, and therefore we're using average accelerative force to our benefit. Not only that, but by revving beyond our torque peak we're going to be in a better part of our powerband in the next higher gear when we do shift.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>actually the reason for shifting past max torque, is to shift at near max hp as possible, to have the max acceleration force up to the point of the shift, at the shift, the accelerative forces go down, even if the resultant gear change rpm ends up at max torque.. keep in mind, very few cars like ours get max torque at 5250rpms. mostly, they get max torque at 4000rpm. (or lower) our S4s get max torque at 3000rpm and at 4000rpm.
never 5250, at least for a car with a 6500rpm redline

There is however a point at which torque drops to a point where you're better off shifting(which is why i don't rev my car to 7000rpm in second or 3d, even though the engine will physically rev to that RPM reading). After 6500rpm i'm better off in the next higher gear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>depends on your gear spacing, and the goal is to maximize hp under the curve. it the curve peaks at 6000rpm, and your gear spacing is 1500rpm, you want to shift at 6700rpm so your rpm drop puts you at 5300rpm.



"BUT, if we want to accelerate over a speed range and have a gear box, we will want to operate at max HP as much of the time as possible through the gears."

That's the difference between peak and average acceleration force, and again, i agree with your conclusions with the caveat that you change HP to torque...because they're factually correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>actually no, thats the difference of having the max accelerative force at a given speed. (not to be confused with max accelerative force in a particular gear)

If the word HP had never been invented as a marketing ploy your car would be just as fast....because of torque, a physical force of nature. If your cars engine produced no torque, your car would not move.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>no, power is a physics term and it depends on torque and speed (RPMS).

Man invented horsepower, mother nature invented torque.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>torque is just a torque, if there is no acceleration. velocity change in respect to time. put the time element in there, and you have HP. what good is 50000000 ftlbs if you apply it over 5 days?
i have seen 1hp motors that can make 500ftlbs. you wouldnt want them in your 928

What i'm saying here is that torque is an actual force of nature....HP is not. It is an arbitrary term used to measure torque delivered over time and distance, and it's not even a standard definition. It is however a very cool sounding term, so if you want to use it, by all means, don't let me stop you...i use it too 99% of the time. [/QUOTE]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hey foot?? pound???? not arbatrary either????
think agian. even the centemeter, gram, etc are all man concieved.

MK

mark kibort

=m21sniper]"no, not nessesarily. think about a 5,000rpm launch in a drag, or better yet, a ALMS, or club racer. on a rolling start, you are never at max torque, and if you want to win the race against the same exact car and a good driver, you better never be at max torque, always near max hp as much as you can."

The 500/500 car makes it's maximum torque at a theoretical 5250rpm. Are you telling me that i'll never be at 5250rpm(or for that matter will never want to be at 5250rpm) if i'm piloting the 500/500 car regardless of the style of race? Cause i can assure you that i'll be zipping right through 5250rpm in every gear... just as i'd be zipping through 10,500rpm(the 500/250s theoretical torque peak) in every gear if i was piloting the 500/250 car.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>no, the 500/500 has a max hp at 5000rpm, this means that max torque is going to be in the 3500 range
the torque peak of the 10,000rpm max hp engine would be in the 7000rpm range

Forget horsepower, in effect, it's meaningless. Torque is the physical force that moves your car. HP(in it's many versions) is just a measurement of actual force(torque) applied over time. Torque is a force of nature. HP is an arbitrary figure developed for marketing purposes to measure torque applied over time and distance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>we all agree that its the torque that is the driving force (no pun intended) However, im looking at the system, you are looking at the engine.
max torque in 3rd gear is not the fastest rate of acceleration, it would be in the prevoius gear at max HP!

That's ALL HP is, an arbitrary measurement of torque delivered over time and distance. Again, 1 hp is 33,000lbs lifted 1 foot in one minute. Horsepower is not a physical force...torque is.
>>>>>>HP is the application of the force

You can determine exactly how your car will perform if you know how much peak torque it makes at it's peak torque engine speed when combined with vehicle weight and gearing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>again, peak torque is not the indicator. infact, devek strokers make 370ftlbs and 300hp at the wheels on a stockish 6 liter build up. (no other mods) if you look at the hp curve vs a slightly mod'ed s4, you see there isnt much difference in the "racing range" the area under the curve is slightly greater from 5000rpm to 6500rpm due to the MUch higher max torque number. However, its not as much as the differences in max torque would indicate (370ftlbs vs 300ftlbs)


However, if you do not know the torque peak, you can never determine horsepower, let alone determine how a vehicle will perform.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>toque peak is kind of irrelavant, due to you not really operating at peak torque when racing. (ie 3000 to 4000rpm range) when im racing, you can see my tach. it goes from 6000 to 4500 and thats it.
(unless im short shifting due to saving the equip sometimes)

The fact that there is only one definition of torque, and yet there are at least 4 competing definitions of horsepower (BHP, GHP, SAEHP, RWHP, and i'm sure there's at least one other i'm forgetting) ought to tell you something. It ought to tell you that since the powers that be can't even agree on a standard format of measurement that it's not a scientific measurement at all. As i've said, and as any amount of research will clearly show, HP is a purely arbitrary marketing term.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>torques dont come in flavors too??? ftlbs, ozin, Newtons, kgcm, etc. what about weights or mass. poundels, lbs, kg, slugs, etc

Of all the various measurements of HP, BHP is the most 'correct', and is the only one that gives a 'true reading' of delivered power.(BHP is the amount of clamping force exerted on a flywheel or driveshaft that is required to stall an engine operating at peak torque). Ironically, it has fallen out of use because manufacturers were stripping off the engine accesories to provide artificially inflated readings, which is what spurred SAE to come up with SAE Net(which is the current standard used by auto manufacturers and is defined as 'power at the tailshift of the transmission with all accesories installed and operating').
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>i like dynomometers, because it mirrors how the engine is used on the road. not many things to fudge. it moves the same wheel at a rate of acceleration. get the torque needed for that acceleratoin rate and measure the speed, get HP. pretty straight forward. calabrating brake dynos, water brakes, magnetic brakes, brush motor EMF calculations, now there is fudge factor if ive ever seen it.

"now, i know you need some help here. I know you want to learn it too, so here it goes."

LOL, well, i'm a very patient man(a byproduct of my former occupation), so i'm still listening...even though i think i in fact do have it 'right'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>go back to the 500/500 vs the 500/250. why do they accelerate the same then??? one has only 250ftlbs of torque. ??? because, the torque at the wheels mulitplied by their respective gears is the same.
IM with you on torque, but after gearing. YOU see, HP takes that into account. no need to mess with gear ratios. same area used under the same shape HP curve, same torques to the wheels. if you dont know HP, then you need to know speed range, gear ratios, RPM ranges, etc. HP actually simplifies the work. after all, HP is Torque x RPM .

"again, critical error above. gearing proportionately, not identically."

I thought you said the two cars had identical gearing earlier. If you actually meant proportional(or i misread) well then, YES, that COMPLETELY changes the equation, and i would be in complete agreement.
>>>>>I though you would! good!


For the 500/250 to match the 500/500s peak accelerative force it would need exactly double the final drive ratio in any given gear.

"Meaning , both willl have the same speeds in their respective gears all the way to top speed. thought that was implied, my mistake. should have been more clear. so, in your example, the 10,000rpm max HP car would have the 8:1 gearing, and have the same torque to the wheels at any vehicle speed."

THAT i completely agree with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>again. Good. Im sure we are talking passed eachother. these things are better debated in person. the internet can be murder to make key points stick!

At 8:1 final drive the 500/250 would produce the EXACT same amount of peak acceleration force as the 500/500 at 4:1.

Totally agreed.

Either i misread you earlier, or you mis-stated what you were thinking. Regardless, the term 'proportional gearing' changes everything....and puts our stars back into perfect alignment.

"based on the gears of a 928S4 is there any gear that produces max acceleration at max torque at a particular speed vehical speed ? (max torque being 4000rpm and excluding 1st gear)
(kind of a trick question, so think about it) "

Sounds like you're inviting me to do a lot more math....dammit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not going to let you off that easy.

You've already made me think far too much for one day- i'm well over my quota. [/QUOTE]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>me too. re-read some of my posts, especially the link to the very heated discussion with the torque numbers for each gear over a speed range from 0-115mph.

See ya!

m21sniper

LOL, i'm like a junkie...i couldn't resist checking the thread before i go to bed(ha- i'm a poet!).

I kinda figured all along we were having a disconnect. We were just basicly saying the same things in different ways, lol.

On the HP vs torque, i'll address your latest points tommorow. Same shark time, same shark channel.