Corvette Trans in a 928
02-28-2005, 04:50 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
Heinrich, YES, your right, i had a typo W= T x D. (It is W= F x d) I think ive said this correct enough before. I corrected in that original post.
mk
mk
Originally Posted by heinrich
WORK:
work = (force times distance).
work IS NOT torque over distance
work IS NOT (T X D)
work = (force times distance).
work IS NOT torque over distance
work IS NOT (T X D)
02-28-2005, 05:23 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
just out of curiosity,
is it:
HP = rpms x torque/ constant (5250 if using ftlbs)
Last i heard it was.
Lets cut the BS and start by answering the two simple questions.
1. which will car will accelerate fastest to 115mph or 100mph and why?
(porsche 928 equiped with a GT gear box or S4 gear box.)
2. are there torque, to the wheel trade offs when using either one of these two gear boxes over an operational range of running through multiple gears.
give us your answers and please, show your work! (as i have done for you !)
Hey ive admitted to chopping up formulas and makeing typos. the main point, is to give the real information regarding the effects of changing gear ratios in our cars for ALL applications.
Mk
is it:
HP = rpms x torque/ constant (5250 if using ftlbs)
Last i heard it was.
Lets cut the BS and start by answering the two simple questions.
1. which will car will accelerate fastest to 115mph or 100mph and why?
(porsche 928 equiped with a GT gear box or S4 gear box.)
2. are there torque, to the wheel trade offs when using either one of these two gear boxes over an operational range of running through multiple gears.
give us your answers and please, show your work! (as i have done for you !)
Hey ive admitted to chopping up formulas and makeing typos. the main point, is to give the real information regarding the effects of changing gear ratios in our cars for ALL applications.
Mk
Originally Posted by heinrich
Riiiiiight .... semantics. Sure. So, math according to Kibort:
(time x work) = hp = (work/time)
(time x work) = hp = (work/time)
Last edited by mark kibort; 02-28-2005 at 06:51 PM.
02-28-2005, 05:42 PM
#64
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by mark kibort
just out of curiosity,
is it:
HP = rpms x torque x constant ?
HP = 550lbs x distance (ft) x time (sec.) ?
Last i heard it was.
is it:
HP = rpms x torque x constant ?
HP = 550lbs x distance (ft) x time (sec.) ?
Last i heard it was.
Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252
The second mistake you make above is to think the distance in the torque value is the distance the car travels. It is not. See above.
Originally Posted by mark kibort
1. which will car will accelerate fastest to 115mph or 100mph and why?
(porsche 928 equiped with a GT gear box or S4 gear box.)
(porsche 928 equiped with a GT gear box or S4 gear box.)
Originally Posted by mark kibort
2. are their (Heinrich says: you mean "there") torque, to the wheel trade offs when using either one of these two gear boxes over an operational range of running through multiple gears.
Here's what will happen again ad nauseam. You will keep spouting off this garbage. You will keep saying you know people at MIT that you educate on a daily basis regarding physics. And I will again grow weary and let you.
02-28-2005, 06:04 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
another mistake on my part. Thanks 
I also corrected it in my previous post (no sleep in a couple of months with a newborn will do this to you !)
yes, you are right. I had the formula incorrect. (*you see, ill admit when i make a mistake!)
Now, as far as shifting at max torque or Max Hp or redline, you may be a little off base below. what do you mean by appropriate torque band?? of the engine, or to the wheels. I think this is getting to my point. a skilled driver will shift aways at redline (for most all engines), this will put the max torque to the wheels over the operational range, even though the engines can be operating out of their max torque range. (depending on the gear closeness)
as far as the GT vs S4 gear boxes. 0-60 will be fastest with the GTS box, while 0-80 will be better in the S4, just as 0-100 will be better in the GTS while 0-115 will be better in the S4. on that same thread, 0-125 better in the GTS, and 0-155 will be a whole lot better with the S4. why, these are the redlines for the gears relating to the appropriate speed targets. Just think, for example. from 125 to 155mph, an S4 would have 20% more torque available for the longest period in the acceleration / Speed range. (same thing happens for a shorter time between 100 to 115mph and so on)
Again, it depends. Thats the entire point to this massive argument. do you understand the point now?? from your point below about a (stupid ) driver, you must mean all racers in existance, except you . all drivers (good and fast ones) will beat the living tar out of the engine, by shifting at redline as often as they can. As long as this keeps the AVERAGE HP to the wheels at a maximum, the car will be fastest (quickest) (ie if max HP is 6000rpm and falls off as fast as it got there, then with a 1500rpm spread of rpms between gears, you would shift at 6750rpm and the rpm drop would be down to 5250. (even though max torque could be at 4000rpm)
Let me know if you agree.
mk
I also corrected it in my previous post (no sleep in a couple of months with a newborn will do this to you !)yes, you are right. I had the formula incorrect. (*you see, ill admit when i make a mistake!)
Now, as far as shifting at max torque or Max Hp or redline, you may be a little off base below. what do you mean by appropriate torque band?? of the engine, or to the wheels. I think this is getting to my point. a skilled driver will shift aways at redline (for most all engines), this will put the max torque to the wheels over the operational range, even though the engines can be operating out of their max torque range. (depending on the gear closeness)
as far as the GT vs S4 gear boxes. 0-60 will be fastest with the GTS box, while 0-80 will be better in the S4, just as 0-100 will be better in the GTS while 0-115 will be better in the S4. on that same thread, 0-125 better in the GTS, and 0-155 will be a whole lot better with the S4. why, these are the redlines for the gears relating to the appropriate speed targets. Just think, for example. from 125 to 155mph, an S4 would have 20% more torque available for the longest period in the acceleration / Speed range. (same thing happens for a shorter time between 100 to 115mph and so on)
Again, it depends. Thats the entire point to this massive argument. do you understand the point now?? from your point below about a (stupid ) driver, you must mean all racers in existance, except you . all drivers (good and fast ones) will beat the living tar out of the engine, by shifting at redline as often as they can. As long as this keeps the AVERAGE HP to the wheels at a maximum, the car will be fastest (quickest) (ie if max HP is 6000rpm and falls off as fast as it got there, then with a 1500rpm spread of rpms between gears, you would shift at 6750rpm and the rpm drop would be down to 5250. (even though max torque could be at 4000rpm)
Let me know if you agree.
mk
Originally Posted by heinrich
NO it isn't. MULTIPLY IS NOT THE SAME AS DIVIDE. The only way hp can = (rpms x torque x constant) is if the constant is 1/5252.
Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252
The second mistake you make above is to think the distance in the torque value is the distance the car travels. It is not. See above.
I don't remember what the Porsche numbers are for GT and S4, and I don't care. Whichever of the two has the shortest [(0 - 60) + (60 - 100)] or to 115 added up. Very simple. If you leave the driver's skill out of it.
No. A competent driver will keep the car in its effective torque band by selecting the appropriate gear at all times. If he/she becomes stupid, he/she will not do so and simply wait for the car to reach redline in every gear, thereby defeating his/her reason for existence. In that case, the car with the SHORTER gearing will be the most effective.
Here's what will happen again ad nauseam. You will keep spouting off this garbage. You will keep saying you know people at MIT that you educate on a daily basis regarding physics. And I will again grow weary and let you.
Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252
The second mistake you make above is to think the distance in the torque value is the distance the car travels. It is not. See above.
I don't remember what the Porsche numbers are for GT and S4, and I don't care. Whichever of the two has the shortest [(0 - 60) + (60 - 100)] or to 115 added up. Very simple. If you leave the driver's skill out of it.
No. A competent driver will keep the car in its effective torque band by selecting the appropriate gear at all times. If he/she becomes stupid, he/she will not do so and simply wait for the car to reach redline in every gear, thereby defeating his/her reason for existence. In that case, the car with the SHORTER gearing will be the most effective.
Here's what will happen again ad nauseam. You will keep spouting off this garbage. You will keep saying you know people at MIT that you educate on a daily basis regarding physics. And I will again grow weary and let you.
02-28-2005, 06:49 PM
#67
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Damn you are unstoppable 
Agreed with everything in your last post (quoted below).
Agreed with everything in your last post (quoted below).
Originally Posted by mark kibort
another mistake on my part. Thanks I also corrected it in my previous post (no sleep in a couple of months with a newborn will do this to you !)
yes, you are right. I had the formula incorrect. (*you see, ill admit when i make a mistake!)
Now, as far as shifting at max torque or Max Hp or redline, you may be a little off base below. what do you mean by appropriate torque band?? of the engine, or to the wheels. I think this is getting to my point. a skilled driver will shift aways at redline (for most all engines), this will put the max torque to the wheels over the operational range, even though the engines can be operating out of their max torque range. (depending on the gear closeness)
as far as the GT vs S4 gear boxes. 0-60 will be fastest with the GTS box, while 0-80 will be better in the S4, just as 0-100 will be better in the GTS while 0-115 will be better in the S4. on that same thread, 0-125 better in the GTS, and 0-155 will be a whole lot better with the S4. why, these are the redlines for the gears relating to the appropriate speed targets. Just think, for example. from 125 to 155mph, an S4 would have 20% more torque available for the longest period in the acceleration / Speed range. (same thing happens for a shorter time between 100 to 115mph and so on)
Again, it depends. Thats the entire point to this massive argument. do you understand the point now?? from your point below about a (stupid ) driver, you must mean all racers in existance, except you . all drivers (good and fast ones) will beat the living tar out of the engine, by shifting at redline as often as they can. As long as this keeps the AVERAGE HP to the wheels at a maximum, the car will be fastest (quickest) (ie if max HP is 6000rpm and falls off as fast as it got there, then with a 1500rpm spread of rpms between gears, you would shift at 6750rpm and the rpm drop would be down to 5250. (even though max torque could be at 4000rpm)
Let me know if you agree.
mk
I also corrected it in my previous post (no sleep in a couple of months with a newborn will do this to you !)yes, you are right. I had the formula incorrect. (*you see, ill admit when i make a mistake!)
Now, as far as shifting at max torque or Max Hp or redline, you may be a little off base below. what do you mean by appropriate torque band?? of the engine, or to the wheels. I think this is getting to my point. a skilled driver will shift aways at redline (for most all engines), this will put the max torque to the wheels over the operational range, even though the engines can be operating out of their max torque range. (depending on the gear closeness)
as far as the GT vs S4 gear boxes. 0-60 will be fastest with the GTS box, while 0-80 will be better in the S4, just as 0-100 will be better in the GTS while 0-115 will be better in the S4. on that same thread, 0-125 better in the GTS, and 0-155 will be a whole lot better with the S4. why, these are the redlines for the gears relating to the appropriate speed targets. Just think, for example. from 125 to 155mph, an S4 would have 20% more torque available for the longest period in the acceleration / Speed range. (same thing happens for a shorter time between 100 to 115mph and so on)
Again, it depends. Thats the entire point to this massive argument. do you understand the point now?? from your point below about a (stupid ) driver, you must mean all racers in existance, except you . all drivers (good and fast ones) will beat the living tar out of the engine, by shifting at redline as often as they can. As long as this keeps the AVERAGE HP to the wheels at a maximum, the car will be fastest (quickest) (ie if max HP is 6000rpm and falls off as fast as it got there, then with a 1500rpm spread of rpms between gears, you would shift at 6750rpm and the rpm drop would be down to 5250. (even though max torque could be at 4000rpm)
Let me know if you agree.
mk
02-28-2005, 06:50 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
so, the bottom line, heinrich says there are no torque trade offs. I say that there clearly is.
I wonder who is right. Hmmm. the computer program seems to agree. other college educated folks seem to agree as well.
He further digs himself a hole whe saying a competent driver will not redline the engine in each gear , but be stupid in doing so. He seems to be implying that you should shift at some level that maximizes engine torque, but we all know that is incorrect. (rear wheel torque is maximized by staying as close as possible to max hp)
Anyway, in typical fasion, he corrects some spelling and takes off. he seems to get the formulas, but just cant seem to put them all together in a big picture form.
thats ok.
Mk
Originally Posted by mark kibort
2. are there torque, to the wheel trade offs when using either one of these two gear boxes over an operational range of running through multiple gears.
Heinrich then said:>>>
No. A competent driver will keep the car in its effective torque band by selecting the appropriate gear at all times. If he/she becomes stupid, he/she will not do so and simply wait for the car to reach redline in every gear, thereby defeating his/her reason for existence. In that case, the car with the SHORTER gearing will be the most effective.
I wonder who is right. Hmmm. the computer program seems to agree. other college educated folks seem to agree as well.
He further digs himself a hole whe saying a competent driver will not redline the engine in each gear , but be stupid in doing so. He seems to be implying that you should shift at some level that maximizes engine torque, but we all know that is incorrect. (rear wheel torque is maximized by staying as close as possible to max hp)
Anyway, in typical fasion, he corrects some spelling and takes off. he seems to get the formulas, but just cant seem to put them all together in a big picture form.
thats ok.
Mk
Originally Posted by mark kibort
2. are there torque, to the wheel trade offs when using either one of these two gear boxes over an operational range of running through multiple gears.
Heinrich then said:>>>
No. A competent driver will keep the car in its effective torque band by selecting the appropriate gear at all times. If he/she becomes stupid, he/she will not do so and simply wait for the car to reach redline in every gear, thereby defeating his/her reason for existence. In that case, the car with the SHORTER gearing will be the most effective.
02-28-2005, 06:53 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
thanks for correcting that "There" vs "their" typo as well.
oh, your right, i dont know the difference.
you sure are full of yourself!
Mk
oh, your right, i dont know the difference.
you sure are full of yourself!
Mk
Originally Posted by heinrich
More math for you to digest Mark:
misunderstanding = NOT typo
Signing off this thread - post away as always <again>
misunderstanding = NOT typo
Signing off this thread - post away as always <again>
02-28-2005, 06:56 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
You have got to be kidding!! I really wonder if you do this time!
mk
mk
Originally Posted by heinrich
Damn you are unstoppable Agreed with everything in your last post (quoted below).
Agreed with everything in your last post (quoted below).
02-28-2005, 07:06 PM
#72
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
MARK.
Learn something will you? You keep saying "I am Einstein. I tell MIT how to do physics daily". Then you post the simplest of mistakes ALL OVER your posts. EVERY ONE is wrong Mark.
So you post "go ahead you morons, prove me wrong, and IS THE LIGHT ON YET?"
So lowly me, and DaveL, and many other samaritans who hope to HELP your blind self, go ahead and try to help. We SHOW your BAZILLION mistakes. Not tiny mistakes Dude .. HUGE ones. Like TORQUE = FORCE. and like (something over time) = (that thing x time). BIG, GLARING, HUGE mistakes Dude. Incredible ones. Your response? "Hey we all make mistakes". Next thing you do, is to come right back and post crap like this.
You really, truly are like a spaniel I once owned. No amount of coaxing, loving, sternness, even spanking could cure this poor thing. All it wanted to do was pee all over the kitchen floor.
Well Mark, I'm done trying to help you. Just please stop teaching others this "mistaken" theory of your, OKAY? And go ahead .... the kitchen floor is all yours.
Learn something will you? You keep saying "I am Einstein. I tell MIT how to do physics daily". Then you post the simplest of mistakes ALL OVER your posts. EVERY ONE is wrong Mark.
So you post "go ahead you morons, prove me wrong, and IS THE LIGHT ON YET?"
So lowly me, and DaveL, and many other samaritans who hope to HELP your blind self, go ahead and try to help. We SHOW your BAZILLION mistakes. Not tiny mistakes Dude .. HUGE ones. Like TORQUE = FORCE. and like (something over time) = (that thing x time). BIG, GLARING, HUGE mistakes Dude. Incredible ones. Your response? "Hey we all make mistakes". Next thing you do, is to come right back and post crap like this.
You really, truly are like a spaniel I once owned. No amount of coaxing, loving, sternness, even spanking could cure this poor thing. All it wanted to do was pee all over the kitchen floor.
Well Mark, I'm done trying to help you. Just please stop teaching others this "mistaken" theory of your, OKAY? And go ahead .... the kitchen floor is all yours.
+ 
time!
02-28-2005, 07:30 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Heinrich,
ive only posted the facts of the subject matter. you are the one concerned with correcting typos. I deal with the big picture stuff on a day to day basis, not teaching high school physics. I use many different computer programs to calculate answer to specific problems.
you are the one that still doesnt understand the big picture, not me. Im the first to come back with a response when ive made a mistake, not you .
Dont be a smart ***. answer the original question. You say there are no trade offs and there clearly are. (gt vs S4 gear box comparison example)
do you still think you need to keep your engine at max torque for best acceleration? think again.
Ive tried to help. Ive posted the charts showing the exact torques through the gears over time. EVEN backed up by a computer output that calcuated and verified my manual integration of the values.
sometimes the facts are diffucult to grasp. (for some)
There are no mistakes in the fact (not even a theory) that gearing doesnt buy you HP, only efficiency of that hp put to the wheels. AND over an infinitely variable range of speeds, all gear boxes will have trade offs. (as long as the gear spacing remains the same) . Gears can give you better acceleration if they are matched for the range of speeds. this can be a taller or shorter rear end. that is the only point, and I certainly dont see any "HUGE" error there. Maybe you and DaveL, can clue us in on why, if you think there is.
Mk
ive only posted the facts of the subject matter. you are the one concerned with correcting typos. I deal with the big picture stuff on a day to day basis, not teaching high school physics. I use many different computer programs to calculate answer to specific problems.
you are the one that still doesnt understand the big picture, not me. Im the first to come back with a response when ive made a mistake, not you .
Dont be a smart ***. answer the original question. You say there are no trade offs and there clearly are. (gt vs S4 gear box comparison example)
do you still think you need to keep your engine at max torque for best acceleration? think again.
Ive tried to help. Ive posted the charts showing the exact torques through the gears over time. EVEN backed up by a computer output that calcuated and verified my manual integration of the values.
sometimes the facts are diffucult to grasp. (for some)
There are no mistakes in the fact (not even a theory) that gearing doesnt buy you HP, only efficiency of that hp put to the wheels. AND over an infinitely variable range of speeds, all gear boxes will have trade offs. (as long as the gear spacing remains the same) . Gears can give you better acceleration if they are matched for the range of speeds. this can be a taller or shorter rear end. that is the only point, and I certainly dont see any "HUGE" error there. Maybe you and DaveL, can clue us in on why, if you think there is.
Mk
Originally Posted by heinrich
MARK.
Learn something will you? You keep saying "I am Einstein. I tell MIT how to do physics daily". Then you post the simplest of mistakes ALL OVER your posts. EVERY ONE is wrong Mark.
So you post "go ahead you morons, prove me wrong, and IS THE LIGHT ON YET?"
So lowly me, and DaveL, and many other samaritans who hope to HELP your blind self, go ahead and try to help. We SHOW your BAZILLION mistakes. Not tiny mistakes Dude .. HUGE ones. Like TORQUE = FORCE. and like (something over time) = (that thing x time). BIG, GLARING, HUGE mistakes Dude
.
Learn something will you? You keep saying "I am Einstein. I tell MIT how to do physics daily". Then you post the simplest of mistakes ALL OVER your posts. EVERY ONE is wrong Mark.
So you post "go ahead you morons, prove me wrong, and IS THE LIGHT ON YET?"
So lowly me, and DaveL, and many other samaritans who hope to HELP your blind self, go ahead and try to help. We SHOW your BAZILLION mistakes. Not tiny mistakes Dude .. HUGE ones. Like TORQUE = FORCE. and like (something over time) = (that thing x time). BIG, GLARING, HUGE mistakes Dude
.
02-28-2005, 08:25 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Heinrich,
Here are the numbers of the torque values at each speed range (for each gear ) for each of the gear boxes (S4 or GT)
DaveL, (one of your good samaritans) also, found errors in me using the same times for each segment of speed. He is right, but its a rounding error, as it is traded off as well for each speed range. the times are for reference. anything close will make the point of the discussion.
it seems, especially from the private emails, that many do get the concept, except you and Dave. below is a manual integration of available torque over a wide speed range.
Take a look below and see where the errors can be. Then, you can plug your torques over time and use this manual integration to see what gear box puts the most amount of torque to the wheels over these speed ranges. this only goes up to a 115mph. if we wanted to shade it to the GTS, we could use 135mph.
at the end of the day Heinrich, you will get an average torque that was put to the wheels through the ratios. this is proportionate to the force that would have been available for acceleration. the times can be more accurately plugged into from those recent drag gtech numbers. eitherway, these numbers are not far off.
this is the only point of the discussion. it is the answer. you are free to debate, but show your work!
Mk
Below, see the actual torque through the appropriate gear and miltiplied by its ratio for total ft/lbs delivered to the rear wheels at any speed.
MPH---0-48 -------48-54----- 54-71---------71-82---------82-102------102-115
GT--1st 2958----2nd 1972---2nd 1972---3rd 1392----3rd 1392-----4th 1044ft lbs
S4--1st 2581----1st 2581----2nd 1711---2nd 1711----3rd 1229-----3rd 1229ft lbs
TIME---3sec------ 2 sec------- 3 sec--------- 2 sec------ 3 sec----------- 4sec
__________________
DIFF BETWEEN GTS AND S4
0-48 48mph 15% advantage GTS
48-54 mph= 6mph 30% advantage S4
54-71 mph = 17mph 15% advantage GTS
71-82 mph =11mph 30% adv. S4
82-102 mph =20mph 15% adv GTS
102-115 mph = 13mph 30%adv S4
115-135 mph = 20mph 15% adv GTS
135-153 mph= 18mph 30% adv S4
Here are the numbers of the torque values at each speed range (for each gear ) for each of the gear boxes (S4 or GT)
DaveL, (one of your good samaritans) also, found errors in me using the same times for each segment of speed. He is right, but its a rounding error, as it is traded off as well for each speed range. the times are for reference. anything close will make the point of the discussion.
it seems, especially from the private emails, that many do get the concept, except you and Dave. below is a manual integration of available torque over a wide speed range.
Take a look below and see where the errors can be. Then, you can plug your torques over time and use this manual integration to see what gear box puts the most amount of torque to the wheels over these speed ranges. this only goes up to a 115mph. if we wanted to shade it to the GTS, we could use 135mph.
at the end of the day Heinrich, you will get an average torque that was put to the wheels through the ratios. this is proportionate to the force that would have been available for acceleration. the times can be more accurately plugged into from those recent drag gtech numbers. eitherway, these numbers are not far off.
this is the only point of the discussion. it is the answer. you are free to debate, but show your work!
Mk
Below, see the actual torque through the appropriate gear and miltiplied by its ratio for total ft/lbs delivered to the rear wheels at any speed.
MPH---0-48 -------48-54----- 54-71---------71-82---------82-102------102-115
GT--1st 2958----2nd 1972---2nd 1972---3rd 1392----3rd 1392-----4th 1044ft lbs
S4--1st 2581----1st 2581----2nd 1711---2nd 1711----3rd 1229-----3rd 1229ft lbs
TIME---3sec------ 2 sec------- 3 sec--------- 2 sec------ 3 sec----------- 4sec
__________________
DIFF BETWEEN GTS AND S4
0-48 48mph 15% advantage GTS
48-54 mph= 6mph 30% advantage S4
54-71 mph = 17mph 15% advantage GTS
71-82 mph =11mph 30% adv. S4
82-102 mph =20mph 15% adv GTS
102-115 mph = 13mph 30%adv S4
115-135 mph = 20mph 15% adv GTS
135-153 mph= 18mph 30% adv S4
Last edited by mark kibort; 02-28-2005 at 08:40 PM.