hitbyastick

Hey guys and gals,
I'm in the midst of deciding to sell the 914 which is in Germany, not deal with the hassle of shipping it to CA etc etc. and getting another Porsche. The three it has come down to is a 928 (85 or later with 32 valve Engine), 944 Turbo, or mid 70's 911 Targa.

So I figure I'll ask some questions. I know about the timing belt, water pump etc, and the fact that 928s can be a pretty penny to maintain. It wouldn't be my daily driver, but taken out frequently nontheless. So let's say I invest about 10K to purchase the car.
What condition can I expect? What other basic maintenance is done, and what are the more expensive commen issues with these cars?
I do all my own work on every car I've ever owned, and currently I work at a parts store.

Basically I'm asking you experts to tell me a bit about the 928 before I make my decision. Thanks very much

Normy

I think the total non-scheduled maintenance budget for my '85 S2 amounted to $46 last year; the inner door handle failed. I put about 4000 miles on my car last year, and had to do only one oil change for a total of $20.

1. Timing belt changes are $1000, unless you do it yourself [hope you know what you're doing...], when it drops to about $500, since you should do your waterpump and the tensioner as well.

2. These are old cars. They are going to break...period. Fortunately, Porsche built 928's like a brick sh*thouse, so you generally don't have to worry about the main bits, as long as you don't bring home a basket case. Torque tubes, starters, radiators, steering racks, and transmission rebuilds are all possible, though unlikely if you do your homework.

3. DONT expect all your accessories to work. In fact, I suggest you ignore them as much as you can, since I suspect that Porsche put the vast majority of their engineering in the drivetrain and chassis and very little into the accessories. Your sunroof will fail, your power windows will quit, and your central locks will dance up and down as if by magic.

4. 944 turbo? Mid '70's 911 targa? Neat cars....but put a good exhaust on a 928 and the little hairs on the back of your neck will raise each time you get past 3000 rpm. Those other Porsche's don't sound as good as this car....

Best of luck!

N!

Doug Hillary

Hi,
Christoph - I was fearful of the ownership costs of a 928 too. I have now owned two 928s over the last several years
The rumours abound even here in Australia so I have tracked my car's running costs from new and it is about $A0.095 per km. Running costs include all tyres, repairs and servicing.
This is about the same as it costs for my OTR prime movers and my MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 is running at about a third of the 928's
My MY89 928S4 has done about 145000kms and my Outback about 125000kms

If you take care to buy a car with excellent and confirmed servicing records these cars are no more expensive than any other car of the same age and with similar performance. My BMW Z3 2.8's running costs are about $A0.05 per km

I do a lot but not all of the work on my cars myself as I live about 1200 kms from the nearest Porsche Dealer or Service Provider!

Regards

Big Dave

I'll pipe in just to add that being a member of this Rennlist community helps keep costs down, too. I'm in the middle of a rebuild following a timing belt failure and I've gotten a fair amount of help through donated or discounted parts. I should get away with $1,500 or less to complete the repair since I'm doing it myself. Normally it would cost the non-do-it-yourselfer at least $6-7K

hitbyastick

Well, I already saw the timing belt adventure in Nicoles garage the other weekend
I think I can figure it out. Wouldn't be the first timing job I've done (ask me how difficult it is on the 914 ... joking)

Thanks for the replies

Nicole

Hey Christoph: So you want to replace the 914 and ol' Mercedes S-Class with a 928. Well, how "handy" are you when it comes ot maintenance and repairs?

As you have seen last week Saturday, the 928 community is pretty tight knit over here, and we often help each other in figuring out how to do things That can save you a lot of money. And for $10k you can buy a really nice car - but if you rely on it as your mode of transportation, you should ALWAYS have another $2k in the bank in case of an emergency. So really, you should not spend much more than $8k on your purchase... and expect your monthly fuel cost to double over the Mercedes Diesel.

Overall the 928 is pretty reliable, if maintained properly. Weakest spots are - as you have learned - the timing belt/water pump. Older Manual transmission cars might have synchro problems, while automatics with the 4-valve engines have the issue of main bearing wear, if the flex plate is not released regularly. Other potential problems are mainly "peripherals", such as the electricals system (about 3 miles of cabeling in the car), or the AC.

When buying a 928 of that vintage the following should have been replaced:
- T-Belt and W-Pump (every 5 years or50k miles)
- Shocks (last about 60-70k miles)
- Ignition wires
- motor mounts (last about 10 years or 60k miles max - can be replaced with similar mounts for the Ford V8)
- generally, rubber parts will have deteriorated - check for condition and consider replacement. Window seals can be expensive; door seals you can get OEM for $100/each
- If over 120k miles, a new torque tube or at least new shaft would be a plus

Make sure there are no leaks, and the car is properly aligned and ride height adjusted (lowering a 928 by merely adjusting the suspension is asking for trouble)

Never buy a 928 without a proper pre-purchase inspection by a mechanic who knows these cars (not just any Porsche mechanic!!!). If it's an automatic, have the flex plate pressure and crank play checked in the process!.

In your price range, expect that a car would need something, but go for one that has been well cared for. It's hareder to undo neglect than fix a couple of things that had been overlooked.

Lastly, drive a few different ones for comparison, so you get a feel for how these cars are supposed to feel and handle. Mine, for example, has a tendency to go sideways in turns with young European male drivers at the wheel. You don't want that, unless you enjoy getting tickets...

You know where to find me, if you want to talk more about 928s...

hitbyastick

Well I just looked at the insurance cost on that puppy, and the 944 and that's definetly something against it until I turn 25 :-p

jcb928

Since I currently own both cars here is my .2 cents on the 87 928 S4 VS 87 944 Turbo.

Looks- I would give the edge to the 928 S4 but others would disagree.

Handling- It depends on what you are looking for. The 928 is solid at any speed but the 944 is a great car when you are on a road with tight curves. The biggest difference for me is when I have the 928 at 100 mph + it feels so natural. In the 944 it feels like your "pushing it". I think they tie in handling. I prefer the 928 on the road so it really comes down to personal preference.

Performance- My 928s4 has not been modified and the 944 Turbo has a Weltmeister chip. The 0-60 and 1/4 miles times are so close you will not notice any difference between the two when driving. The 944 Turbo can be bumped up to 280HP for around $1300 (www.gururacing.net). In stock form both cars tie. When you factor in aftermarket parts (plus the costs) the 951 wins.

Maintenance- The 944's are easier and cheaper to work on and you can find allot more used parts.

Purchasing- For your price range a decent 944 Turbo will be easier to find. If you love 914's I would say that the 944 Turbo would be more your style but I could be wrong. I prefer 928's but that is probably more because of sentimental reasons (my father had one new).

JKelly

I'm not an expert (yet), but doing all of the work myself will probably make me one some day. Since you have 10k to spend and want a 32-valve in decent condition (presumably), you should look for an 86-86 1/2 S, or an 87 S4. 10k is probably a little low to find a fairly low mileage (65-85000) S4 that has been somewhat maintained. A manual transmission may command a little higher price than an auto.
You should do some research on the differences between the 86, 86 1/2, and 87 because that is a transition period from the "older" look to the "newer" look, plus the 86 and 87 both have their own set of benefits and disadvantages. The main difference between the 86 and 86 1/2 is the suspension. The main differences between the 86 and 87 are body style, engine and horsepower, suspension, clutch, exhaust........those are the major things I can think of. The body style is obvious, the engine......there are trade off's, the 87 suspension is better than the 86 but I think it is the same as the 86 1/2, the pre-87 clutch is double disk and is preferred among the racers, the exhaust is arranged differently between the two years but I'm not sure if there is an advantage of one over the other. A set of performance chips will bring the 86 engine about equal to the S4 as far as horsepower is concerned, give or take a few hp (stock 86 = 288, stock 87 = 316). The S suspension is upgradeable and the S4 clutch can be retro fitted with double disk; I don't know the details though. An automatic transmission has it's own issues that you would want to research thoroughly (the auto trans has the potential to be one of the more expensive issues). The other expensive issue would be a timing belt failure. Since you would be doing your own work, basic maintenance really isn't that hard on the bank account. What kills your bank account is when you have a problem, such as rough running, and you take it to a Porsche mechanic and he replaces everything on the car in an attempt to track down the problem. When you get your car back "fixed", it isn't very long before the problem reappears. Then you don't want to get it fixed again and you don't want to take the time to educate your self with the Workshop manuals and Rennlist so you let it sit for a couple of years..........then you try to sell it to someone who has 10k and is wondering what condition they can expect and what other basic maintenance is done. It is a vicious cycle of 928 deterioration. This is why it is important for you to find one that has a good history record, a good PPI, and passes a good hard drivers test.
Another bank account killer, which is my favorite, is when you start bringing the car back to a better-than-new performance level. You ditch the 16" rims and get 17" and think....WOW!! THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Then, you toss aside the stock exhaust and replace it with an X-pipe and aftermarket muffler goodies and think.....OH YEAH!!! THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Next, you want to put in some chips......GOD!!! THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Fuel pressure regulator.....WHOA DOGGY!!!! THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Soon, you'll be replacing everything on the car, mortgaging the house, and selling the kids.
You've been warned.

SharkSkin

Lots of good advice above. Also, consider what your strengths and weaknesses are as a DIY repairman. If electrical stuff bugs the crap out of you, maybe consider an earlier car. If you're good with a wrench but suck at body/paint work, get a cosmetically nice example that maybe needs some wrenching. Flip side of that, someone else may prefer a mechanically perfect(or nearly so) car that needs paint. In short, in your stated price range you should be maybe a little more assiduous about making sure that the work that is needed on it, is work that you can handle. You will be fortunate if you can find one that doesn't need ANY work.

Nicole

Maybe check, if a 2-valve 928 is more affordable from an insurance standpoint. 1984 was not a bad year...

Ron_H

Damn !! I wanted to offer some advice, particularly since I am also a 914 owner, but after reading everyone else's posts it seems they have said it all.

After Nicole's first post, Kelly's is right on, particularly the part about endless additions. I bought my '86.5 after 3 years of looking, and paid $6500 for it. (Nicole doesn't like it, I think, but probably because she has such a fine example of a later one When she rides in it, the police are attracted to it. ) I won't tell you what I have invested in it, but it has travelled across country almost twice since I have owned it (2 1/2 yrs). I have yet to know a finer example of the definition of "GT". Get a better paying job and go for the 928. There will be a day when you will be one of the fortunate few who knew such a fine car and will cherish the memories. The best memories are those above 120 mph for more than an hour. If that isn't your thing, get the 944. My 914 is faster, but not more comfortable or balanced or versatile. As you know the 914 is a go kart. It leaks. A radio is ridiculous in one. The 928 is the other end of the spectrum. Someone got it right with that car.

Finally, I offer you condolences if you find one. You will need a shrink for sure.
To answer your question, I prefer the '86.5 because it has the best of the S4 brakes and suspension and I like the older body style. And it has less gadgets and things to go wrong. The achilles heel is electrics. Gremlins will attack you and keep you up at night.

If you want an early 911, get a '72 or '73 911-E. What a great car. I had 2 911-Es, but they were '70 and '71. The '72 had the 915 gearbox which seemed to have solved intermediate plate bearing problems and ring gear problems. The throttle response and characteristics of a mechanically injected 911 engine are the icing on the cake. Don't look at a 911-T(lady) and the S is peaky. The E has the right balance of off the line performance and driveability and also top end power. I have two engines for my 914/6; one of them is a 2 liter with E cams and S pistons and that is a great combination. Watch for rust, but you know that after owning a 914. The 911 will bite you if you try to drive it like your 914. Stay off the brakes in the corners. The 928 will make you crack your face with a grin as the forgiving rear axle gets you through othewise white knuckle situations with the pedal to the metal: no lifting.

Good luck.

Nicole

Ron: Did I ever say I don't like your car???

michaelathome

I am guesing that no one read his threads in the 911, 944, 951 and 928 threads. He does his own wrenching and works for an auto parts chain.

He has no replies from 911 owners last time I looked.

DAMN.

"Read about the car" or "read just ya can" He seams to know his wrenching but I am not sure if he is up to the large oil bills on the early 9XX's

Having owned a 914 in Germany and doing his own wrenching could we cut him some slack?

DAMN, I am still coming down from a GREAT cleaner.. LOL
Anyhow... Try to read outside the box once and a while, at least take a look

Damn!!! I am stuck with an '83 944 project now cause I couldn't buy into a long term 928! I hope it found a better home and not just a parts bin..

Michael

nee.dragger

[QUOTE=Nicole]. . . . Mine, for example, has a tendency to go sideways in turns with young European male drivers at the wheel. You don't want that, unless you enjoy getting tickets...
QUOTE]

My 928 does the same thing with this old American male driver behind the wheel. Young European males do not have a monopoly on going sideways, some of us American males prefer to test the limits of adhesion too!