heel-toe downshift/braking
01-26-2005, 08:40 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
yes, i delay the shift all the way to a "equalibrium" point where you get between power and brake. (so, yes, as soon as im completely off the brake) Usually, right after the trail brake. at that point, a quick blip of the throttle to still match gear and engine speed, and then slowely apply power through the turn (put the hammer down, and countersteer rapidly, (sawing) to keep the car pointed in the right direction and accelerating!) Schumacher does this (steering input technique, not shifting technique) and it seems to work for him. Interesting that if you look at his steering inputs its very violent, but his speed changes are smoother. he even brakes slightly earlier than some of his competitors, but has more cornering speed and exit speed vs their smoother steering input ways!!
The smoothness comes in with this technique in the gear change in a turn. any small mistakes and you can upset the car. if you do it right, the car doesnt even know you changed gears. Too early, and too quick of a release of the clutch, with unmatched engine speeds ( 3 major variables) and you can upset the rear of the car. However, this also can be used to pitch the car around if you need to.
Funny, i spent a good part of this last season trying to get even smoother, and i got a little slower. at Laguna and Sears, i went back to this "schumacher" technique and picked up a second and then some. sometimes smooth is NOT fast! (the car looks smooth, but the steering aint!)
MK
The smoothness comes in with this technique in the gear change in a turn. any small mistakes and you can upset the car. if you do it right, the car doesnt even know you changed gears. Too early, and too quick of a release of the clutch, with unmatched engine speeds ( 3 major variables) and you can upset the rear of the car. However, this also can be used to pitch the car around if you need to.
Funny, i spent a good part of this last season trying to get even smoother, and i got a little slower. at Laguna and Sears, i went back to this "schumacher" technique and picked up a second and then some. sometimes smooth is NOT fast! (the car looks smooth, but the steering aint!)
MK
Originally Posted by ErnestSw
The reason to shift is to stay in the torque band and whatever method is used MUST be smooth so as not to upset the balance of the car, and MUST be quick so as to get on the accelerator as quickly as possible.
Mark, I'd like to understand what you're saying a little better. Are you saying that you delay your shift to the slowest part of the turn and THEN heel and toe or are you saying that you delay your shift until you're ready to completely come off the brake and then blip the throttle without your foot on the brake?
Mark, I'd like to understand what you're saying a little better. Are you saying that you delay your shift to the slowest part of the turn and THEN heel and toe or are you saying that you delay your shift until you're ready to completely come off the brake and then blip the throttle without your foot on the brake?
01-26-2005, 08:45 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I think its really impossible for someone to stop as fast as someone else that is also using the foot for another purpose at the same time. I bet if we took the worlds best drivers and had one group brake only to a stop vs the other heel toeing, the brake only groupe would stop quicker. especially under competive or varying track conditions.
Mk
Mk
Originally Posted by Ferris B
I always brake harder when I'm not trying to heel/toe downshift because psychologically I'm always afraid my foot will slip off the brake and all hell will break loose.
When I did the Bondurant course, heel/toe was one of the most fun an rewarding concepts I gained during the course, but the 928 doesn't seem to have the best pedal placement, at least when compared w/ the Mustangs Bondurant runs.
I plan to try Mark's recommendation-- brake HARD, release and shift coming out of the turn.
When I did the Bondurant course, heel/toe was one of the most fun an rewarding concepts I gained during the course, but the 928 doesn't seem to have the best pedal placement, at least when compared w/ the Mustangs Bondurant runs.
I plan to try Mark's recommendation-- brake HARD, release and shift coming out of the turn.
01-26-2005, 08:59 PM
#19
Race Director
I use the method of placing my right (size 11) foot with the left part on the brake pedal and left part on the accelerator. I then wiggle my foot to press the accelerator. When approacing a corner where I do not trail brake I do it like this:
1: Accelerate hard approaching and finding brake point on track.
2: At brake point FULL brakes and leave clutch unpressed to help stabilizing braking until rpm drops to ~3000 rpm.
3: At ~3000 rpm clutch in - shifter in neutral still undern full braking.
4: Before turn still under braking place shifter in gear used for exit of corner.
5: At turn in - blip throttle - lift clutch - apply throttle balancing on grip limit - often with some slide of the rear - as smooth as possible while finding grip.
6: When car stabilises full throttle and exit corner with car straightening under acceleration.
This of course takes very little time and is all pretty much done in one maneuvre, I have often heard that I have a very smooth driving technique. Some of the guys I track with prefer to have the car a little unbalanced in pretty much every maneuvre.
I don't understand why some people go through the gears on the way down in speed, it must give extra wear and unbalance the car on the same times as it takes a lot of time doing that. Track driving for me is all about being either on the throttle or the brakes, as hard as possible on both.
My type of foot wiggling (alternative heel and toe) is used by me at all times when driving in any manual gearbox car.
1: Accelerate hard approaching and finding brake point on track.
2: At brake point FULL brakes and leave clutch unpressed to help stabilizing braking until rpm drops to ~3000 rpm.
3: At ~3000 rpm clutch in - shifter in neutral still undern full braking.
4: Before turn still under braking place shifter in gear used for exit of corner.
5: At turn in - blip throttle - lift clutch - apply throttle balancing on grip limit - often with some slide of the rear - as smooth as possible while finding grip.
6: When car stabilises full throttle and exit corner with car straightening under acceleration.
This of course takes very little time and is all pretty much done in one maneuvre, I have often heard that I have a very smooth driving technique. Some of the guys I track with prefer to have the car a little unbalanced in pretty much every maneuvre.
I don't understand why some people go through the gears on the way down in speed, it must give extra wear and unbalance the car on the same times as it takes a lot of time doing that. Track driving for me is all about being either on the throttle or the brakes, as hard as possible on both.
My type of foot wiggling (alternative heel and toe) is used by me at all times when driving in any manual gearbox car.
01-26-2005, 09:01 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
I agree - it is not necessary to "row down thru the gears" ie.....5-4-3-2. Let the brakes do their work, but I would advise against leaving the car in neutral, or the clutch depressed for more that fractions of a second - there is too much risk of "needing to catch it", and not being in gear......
With practice, you will find that you brake the same, whether "heel and toeing" or not.
As for foot placement, I always use the ball of my foot on the brake pedal, and squeeze the throttle with the side of my foot - rolling my foot by the action of my ankle. To me, that has always seemed smoother.
When using my heel on the throttle, I had a tendency to "kick" at it.
With practice, you will find that you brake the same, whether "heel and toeing" or not.
As for foot placement, I always use the ball of my foot on the brake pedal, and squeeze the throttle with the side of my foot - rolling my foot by the action of my ankle. To me, that has always seemed smoother.
When using my heel on the throttle, I had a tendency to "kick" at it.
01-26-2005, 09:17 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
when you really get to the limit of your car, you will find that anytime you are in neutral, it could be a bad thing. you really want the engine to be in gear all the time, especially when approaching and going through gears. If you dont, the rears can lock up as the bias cant be set for both conditions. in gear, and out of gear. this way, you dont have the chance of the rears lockingup.
the wiggling of your foot is a common way some "heal toe".. I actually did it that way as well.
MK
the wiggling of your foot is a common way some "heal toe".. I actually did it that way as well.
MK
Originally Posted by sweanders
I use the method of placing my right (size 11) foot with the left part on the brake pedal and left part on the accelerator. I then wiggle my foot to press the accelerator. When approacing a corner where I do not trail brake I do it like this:
1: Accelerate hard approaching and finding brake point on track.
2: At brake point FULL brakes and leave clutch unpressed to help stabilizing braking until rpm drops to ~3000 rpm.
3: At ~3000 rpm clutch in - shifter in neutral still undern full braking.
4: Before turn still under braking place shifter in gear used for exit of corner.
5: At turn in - blip throttle - lift clutch - apply throttle balancing on grip limit - often with some slide of the rear - as smooth as possible while finding grip.
6: When car stabilises full throttle and exit corner with car straightening under acceleration.
This of course takes very little time and is all pretty much done in one maneuvre, I have often heard that I have a very smooth driving technique. Some of the guys I track with prefer to have the car a little unbalanced in pretty much every maneuvre.
I don't understand why some people go through the gears on the way down in speed, it must give extra wear and unbalance the car on the same times as it takes a lot of time doing that. Track driving for me is all about being either on the throttle or the brakes, as hard as possible on both.
My type of foot wiggling (alternative heel and toe) is used by me at all times when driving in any manual gearbox car.
1: Accelerate hard approaching and finding brake point on track.
2: At brake point FULL brakes and leave clutch unpressed to help stabilizing braking until rpm drops to ~3000 rpm.
3: At ~3000 rpm clutch in - shifter in neutral still undern full braking.
4: Before turn still under braking place shifter in gear used for exit of corner.
5: At turn in - blip throttle - lift clutch - apply throttle balancing on grip limit - often with some slide of the rear - as smooth as possible while finding grip.
6: When car stabilises full throttle and exit corner with car straightening under acceleration.
This of course takes very little time and is all pretty much done in one maneuvre, I have often heard that I have a very smooth driving technique. Some of the guys I track with prefer to have the car a little unbalanced in pretty much every maneuvre.
I don't understand why some people go through the gears on the way down in speed, it must give extra wear and unbalance the car on the same times as it takes a lot of time doing that. Track driving for me is all about being either on the throttle or the brakes, as hard as possible on both.
My type of foot wiggling (alternative heel and toe) is used by me at all times when driving in any manual gearbox car.
01-26-2005, 09:24 PM
#22
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Mark,
It makes sense that you can stop faster while just braking, but it seems to me that if you finish the shift and rev matching while braking you should be able to roll on throttle sooner as opposed to doing it before you roll on the power.
Tha math associated with sawing the steering wheel is understandable, but it depends completely on an extremely sensitive "assometer". If you figure that the maximum oversteer is on the initial power application, and you countersteer in advance, your "swings" should have progressively less force if you get the timing right. For those of us who are still way below the limit it's not a problem.
It makes sense that you can stop faster while just braking, but it seems to me that if you finish the shift and rev matching while braking you should be able to roll on throttle sooner as opposed to doing it before you roll on the power.
Tha math associated with sawing the steering wheel is understandable, but it depends completely on an extremely sensitive "assometer". If you figure that the maximum oversteer is on the initial power application, and you countersteer in advance, your "swings" should have progressively less force if you get the timing right. For those of us who are still way below the limit it's not a problem.
01-26-2005, 10:37 PM
#23
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Interesting to see all the different methods people use to do this.
To heel-toe, I use the left side of my foot on the brake and roll the right edge of my foot onto the gas. I row through all the gears if I'm braking in a straight line but I'll skip a gear if there's not enough time to do so due to the nature of the corner entry. At Sears Point, I'll use 4-3-2 and Turns 7 & 11 but I'll go 4-2 at Turn 2. I also double clutch all my downshifts.
Lap of Sears (22 MB)
Here's another video, but this time it's of a guy with talent. It's Senna testing out an NSX on the short course at Suzuka. Beyond the heel-toe technique, it's interesting to see his throttle control. I saw an interview with Gil DeFerran where said he used to watch Senna test his F1 car at Silverstone and he could distinctly hear that bouncing throttle foot from the side of the track. The slide he holds through the first part of the Spoon Curve at 2:03 on the video is beautiful.
Senna in an NSX at Suzuka (21 MB)
Pretty cool.
To heel-toe, I use the left side of my foot on the brake and roll the right edge of my foot onto the gas. I row through all the gears if I'm braking in a straight line but I'll skip a gear if there's not enough time to do so due to the nature of the corner entry. At Sears Point, I'll use 4-3-2 and Turns 7 & 11 but I'll go 4-2 at Turn 2. I also double clutch all my downshifts.
Lap of Sears (22 MB)
Here's another video, but this time it's of a guy with talent. It's Senna testing out an NSX on the short course at Suzuka. Beyond the heel-toe technique, it's interesting to see his throttle control. I saw an interview with Gil DeFerran where said he used to watch Senna test his F1 car at Silverstone and he could distinctly hear that bouncing throttle foot from the side of the track. The slide he holds through the first part of the Spoon Curve at 2:03 on the video is beautiful.
Senna in an NSX at Suzuka (21 MB)
Pretty cool.
01-26-2005, 10:46 PM
#24
Race Director
Originally Posted by mark kibort
when you really get to the limit of your car, you will find that anytime you are in neutral, it could be a bad thing.
MK
MK
01-27-2005, 12:14 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Great thread. I roll my foot for the blip. It was a bit cumbersome with my size 10.5, until I adjusted the accelerator pedal. YOU CAN ADJUST THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL ON THESE CARS! I suggest that you experiment between the three settings. It only moves out at the bottom, but it changes the angle significantly and for me, made the foot rolling blip alot easier to achieve. I left mine on the all the way out setting.
01-27-2005, 04:27 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
thats just it. Ive found that a real threashold brake is only going to be for a second or two, the last part of the brake is critical as well, as you generally stop harder toward the end of the brake area, mixing in a shift, can sometimes compromise the effectiveness of your braking. this is what some of the nascar guys are now finding on road course telemetry studies. Some road racers are doing this, i for one, think it lets me run up on folks that are shifting toward the end of their braking sequence.
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...lap_win_03.mpg
on this lap, im runnng against a very fast M3 ltw 3.2 euro racer and a C5 T1 vet in an SCCA race. listen to their shifts and braking points.
Obviously, lots of differnt styles here. good topic discussion.
Mk
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...lap_win_03.mpg
on this lap, im runnng against a very fast M3 ltw 3.2 euro racer and a C5 T1 vet in an SCCA race. listen to their shifts and braking points.
Obviously, lots of differnt styles here. good topic discussion.
Mk
Originally Posted by ErnestSw
Mark,
It makes sense that you can stop faster while just braking, but it seems to me that if you finish the shift and rev matching while braking you should be able to roll on throttle sooner as opposed to doing it before you roll on the power.
Tha math associated with sawing the steering wheel is understandable, but it depends completely on an extremely sensitive "assometer". If you figure that the maximum oversteer is on the initial power application, and you countersteer in advance, your "swings" should have progressively less force if you get the timing right. For those of us who are still way below the limit it's not a problem.
It makes sense that you can stop faster while just braking, but it seems to me that if you finish the shift and rev matching while braking you should be able to roll on throttle sooner as opposed to doing it before you roll on the power.
Tha math associated with sawing the steering wheel is understandable, but it depends completely on an extremely sensitive "assometer". If you figure that the maximum oversteer is on the initial power application, and you countersteer in advance, your "swings" should have progressively less force if you get the timing right. For those of us who are still way below the limit it's not a problem.
