SharkSkin

It's been done. My old man took a Ford 351 and turned it into a 400 stroker for his 72 econoline van. He was able to get ~14% better mileage for a number of reasons, but mainly because the engine didn't have to work so hard. He was pulling quite a bit more vacuum at 70MPH... IIRC 11% improvement was realized by just shoving the 400 block in with the same manifolds (in/ex), carb, etc. and he found more as he continued to tweak.

hacker-pschorr

When Z was riding in my car and Lag passed me in his, that would be some trick if they were the same person.
Andy, can you ever stay on topic? Go work on your kit and prove everyone wrong. Your posts mean nothing, your work will and does mean everything.
Get to work, and I mean that in the most polite way possible.

bcdavis

I agree that the best way to deal with criticism, is to prove people wrong.

I said the same thing about the MURPH/Devek debates not too long ago.

I said that the proof is in the numbers.

Dyno numbers.
Sales numbers.
Top speed numbers.
Numbers of happy customers.

And so on...

You can be very slick, like Projekt928, and talk very nicely, and offer a great price, and great theoretical numbers. But until you prove it, with actual kits, decent prices, and dyno numbers, and 0-60 numbers, and have a lot of happy customers, all you have is talk. And getting mad, and having nasty insult battles does not help someone's credibility. If someone criticizes your product, then prove them wrong. If something breaks, and people are complaining about it, then fix it until nothing breaks, and no one has anything to complain about. One of the great things about Tim's kits, is that they are sold complete, and when a customer gets one, they install it, get good dyno numbers, and they come on the board raving about how awesome their car accelerates. You don't hear too many people on here complaining about the kit itself. The only debate is about the cost, or if a CS or PD blower is better. If someone is on here complaining about not seeing 0-60 or 1/4 mile times from the MURPH kit, is that hurting their sales? Maybe it is. So if so, rather than complain about it, prove them wrong. Put down some awesome times on the dragstrip. If you think you sales are fine without 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, then don't bother. I know Devek is still willing to challenge anyone to beat their top speed numbers. And Devek is still willing to battle people on the endurance dyno challenge. And many people have suggested other performance competitions with equal cars. But in the end, it is all about sales, and which car, or which kit, is better... So the more you can back it up with happy customers, good numbers, and good prices, the more people will praise your kits, and the more people will buy them. But the flame wars do not help sell. In fact, it makes me feel that the people involved are not professional. I prefer it if people talk softly, but carry a big stick. Do not get into online battles with people. Just prove them wrong. Just calmly post the numbers. Post about your better prices. Post about your happy customers. Keep improving your kits, until the only debate is about which is the better deal. Or which "flavor" is better for what kind of driving. If there are complaints, or flaws, prove them wrong... Get your baseline numbers. Let the people decide... We are smarter than we look...

CMW

BC I thought I said that already... so to you I say... A M E N.

Hey I think I am the only victim of Projekt 928... anyone else out there. If not at least I recouped 70% of my money.

Carl Fausett

Andy buddy - Lag and Z are two different members of the GLOC, and I fu##ed up their names when I made my post. Tha's all. Anything else is purely Moulder and Scully material.

CMW - can't be - this happened in 2001, and I do not recall any sport bikes allowed at that Solo 1 event (as is usually the case).

Heinrich - Sort-of. I am building a 100.4mm motor right now that will not be stroked, but will be SC, for this coming years track events. Arias pistons from Phil Threshie. It does have steel sleeves, tho.

Tim Murphy

BC, as you have done many times in the past, you provide a very well thought out and factual post, or should I say "summation".

I have never criticized what anyone else has done, ever. I have only questioned what they claimed to be superior without the proper proof when they are making claims and using me as their comparison. A long time ago, someone posted my dyno sheet and Marc T jumped in and started chest pounding that his car was the worlds fastest 928 and that supercharging sucked and would never last on a 928 engine, blaa blaa blaa. My only response was that my car dyno'd 100HP more than his at 6k rpm and stated that my car might go pretty fast too.. O'boy did **** hit the fan. I still haven't heard the end of it. I have never claimed my car to be the fastest in the world and most likely never will. Will my car pull redline in top gear? Pretty sure it will, and I doubt it would take 5 country miles to do it. I have wicked the car up to 180 a few times and things start to float around way too much to ensure I could retain good control of the car if I went any faster. For me to drive the car that fast I would have to make some changes and would rely on the expertise of those that have already accomplished that feat. An open road race is definitely on my "would like to do list" but it is certainly not on my "short to do list". Besides, there is nothing like that locally here for me to try.

Andy and turbo John make all kinds of unsubstantiated claims and that's why some of these guys like to pick on them, and they should. Andy made performance claims of the twin screw vs the centrifugal (pointed directly at me) and I backed up my position with some publicly posted factual data as comparison, and then he threatens to sue me. So Andy, if I post a 1/4 mile slip that is better than yours are you going to threaten to sue me again?? Get a life dude.

BC, you mentioned cost; I have personally spent 3-4 times the cost of what I sell kits for to develop the current kit, not to mention the 1000’s of hours. I currently have an idea of a low cost kit that I thought would work but no one wanted to be the guinea pig and try it out. I have offered it to many and the response is that they would rather pay retail and get the sure thing. I have an idea that I think will work to take a bunch of money off of the kits I offer today, but no one wants to be the one to try it. I can understand why someone doesn't want to take the chance and I really don't blame them. So what do I do? I buy another car and test it on myself to see if it works or not. Not many would be willing to make that investment or take that chance I’m sure. The end result is that I get to sell kits to those who want to make there cars perform more like they want them to. Some day I might actually even realize a profit doing it. On the other hand, some day I will no longer be able to afford the time doing this and will either turn it over to someone else or just shut it down.

Well, enough of that. I did buy another car and the lower cost “Stage One Kit” is done (has been for a few weeks actually) and all I need to do is put it on the dyno to complete the before and after performance figures. This kit will be sold through 928Motorsports and is set to sell for $4995. I still have more testing before it is released so whoever buys it can be confident that it is a 100% complete kit. BTW, this kit should be emission compliant in most states (not CA, sorry).

So, you asked for a lower cost kit, here it is. I'll post the actual performance numbers when I get them.

bcdavis

It all comes down to the numbers. Not the chest beating. Not the outragious advertising claims. We all saw all the claims of Projekt928, and we saw that those people get screwed. So most of us are looking at cost for the kit first of all, then dyno numbers, then kit completeness, then other things, like performance figures, etc... Cost is a big factor for most people. But we also want to know what we will be getting for our money. How much horsepower? Then we want to know if the kit is complete, and how long it will take to install. But that is usually a consideration that comes *after* the "bang for the buck" comparison. And only after the bang for the buck becomes equal between vendors, do we look at things like where the power hits, etc... In all reality, all these cars have power levels that would make any of us smile, no matter if the power hits right away, or if it has to spool up. Just looking at the dyno numbers is enough for me. Sure, 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are cool, but there are too many factors like tires, suspension, weight, and driver skill, that make it hard to compare. Most kit-makers have dyno charts, and costs. That is pretty much all I need. The rest is icing on the cake. Sure, if a kit is complete, I will have no hassles. But if it is not complete, or if I have to do some adjustments, if I am saving thousands, and I get close to the same dyno numbers, then I would consider the extra hassle worth the cost savings. I assumed that was the deal with Andy's kits. They were supposed to be "incomplete" and "do-it-yourself". And thus they were cheaper. So I can't fathom anyone complaining about the kit not being perfect. It was not supposed to be perfect. It was supposed to be a cheaper way to get you in a supercharged 928. With some strings attached. If I were to buy a MURPH kit, I would be paying to avoid those hassles.

Fastest928

Tim M states

"A long time ago, someone posted my dyno sheet and Marc T jumped in and started chest pounding that his car was the worlds fastest 928 and that supercharging sucked and would never last on a 928 engine, blaa blaa blaa. My only response was that my car dyno'd 100HP more than his at 6k rpm and stated that my car might go pretty fast too.. "

Yup, comments like this is why the shlt hits the fan.

Fact: The White Car is the worlds fastest 928...still is...this is a undisputed fact. You should kleep supporting George, maybe if he can cure the belt slippage issue he has been having, he might get there...then you too can make a valid claim as to having provided the kit that was used as part of a 212+ mph run...thus beating our speed, and becoming the part owner of the fastest 928 ever claim! Please do it!

Fact: This record was done using 91 or lower octane fuel.

Fact: This engine made 456 rwhp on 91 octane fuel

Fact: This engine ran for ~3.5 continious minutes at a time at peak hp, and had well over 80K miles on the engine. I have challenged you to the same test. A real shoot out with "reliability" as well as "peak power" as the name of the game. You claimed that the reliability is no different than that of a stroker...lets prove it.

Fact: Any vehicle "might" go pretty fast.....and monkeys "might" fly our of my butt ...strike that, it is not a fact.

Fact: I was unaware of your 650 rwhp dyno pull...still am.

Fact: Porsche tested protocol for the 928 engine, the test defines a simple last stage QC test and is not a ultimate MBTF at peak hp/tq test, is a 32 minute final QC test. What testing have you done to date, other than "drive" the vehicle "really hard"...what the heii does that mean? What testing has been done adn what were the protocols/procedures of the test?...I have asked this before, and even made suggestions? And the Big Q: How many "STOCK" 928 SC engine have blown headgaskets? Not just your kits, but others?

Fact: When a customer builds or buys a stoker engine, he/she gets a totally rebuilt engine.

I never said it "sucked", if anything, I would say it blows....Only Jim B thinks engines "suck"

Marc

bcdavis

Well, if you are both heeding my advice, then rather than continuing to chest-beat online, with no winning the argument, hopefully you are both working on engines that will blow the existing records out of the water. If you guys are smart, then rather than waste time battling online over who is fastest or better, you will all work to prove your point. For now, Dyno numbers and cost are where it's at. There is no turbo "kit" available for the s4, a stroker will cost an arm and a leg, Murph kits are still a bit expensive, and Andy's kits seem like the best bang for the buck, if you can handle a little tuning and a few glitches. People just compare the pros and the cons. But in all reality, the HP numbers are not that far off. It's not like you get 800 horsepower with a stroker, so that makes it worth the extra money. You get about the same horsepower from a stroker, a turbo, or a supercharger. About 450-500rwhp. So who is the cheapest? Who has the easiest kit? Which method takes the longest? I really don't think 1/4 mile times, or top speed really matters that much. Take any car with that kind of power, and it is all about tires, gearing, weight, suspension, aerodynamics, driver skill, etc... I'm sure you could make Tim's car a 220MPH car with the right aerodynamic mods. And I am sure you could make it faster than Andy's car, with huge rubber, stripped interior, etc... It doesn't make the kit more or less cost-effective for the average 928 owner. It doesn't make me want to build a stroker, just because it has the top speed honors. It's all about bang for the buck...

rob rossitto

um, my "retarded/old tech" stroker will have a warrenty and pass smog (hopefully)....those items might be worthy of being on the list of "stuff to consider" too...

mark T does make a valid and very understated point: w/a stroker you get a fresh motor....a large part of the stroker cost is OHing all the accessories, hoses, TB stuff...but you do end up w/a firewall forward, zero time motor with a significant performance improvement over stock at a price that's not a whole lot more than a stock OH...ie labor is close, parts are close, so it's just a bit of machine work/cams that are "extra" compared to a complete stock OH...parts from germany take forever just like they do from WI/MI/etc, so it'll take a while either way...

since my motor was trashed anyway, it would've been $13k or more to do an OEM overhaul (I'm not a used motor fan), and a stroker was about the same price- stroker it was.... in that situation, it's a no brainer...if my motor had been fine, a blower would certianly be a fun/viable option if I could wiggle out of the smog thing and wanted enough power to pull a train....

in reality, they are actually really, really different animals, since the blower stuff is just an accessory (like NOS) for an existing motor and an NA stroker build is part of a total overhaul - so raw cost comparisons don't logically apply...you'd need to isolate what the performance mods really cost different than stock OH costs, then compare $$/HP... but in that context, NOS may as well be a raw HP contender too...and I'd guess at it's super low cost, we'd all be schooled a bit, on a 450/500rwhp range dyno run anyway...hmmmm, NOS on a stroker.... hmmmm....

IMO, "best" just depends on what you have to start with and where you want to go...ie drag strip, jail, track, etc...

raw power? please...do you FI guys use olympic athletes to compete against handicapped kids too??? (sorry mark, no offense) well, can't say I haven't considered it myself after a couple of beers, but - ultimately, NA really shouldn't /can't really compete w/well done FI - different animals entirely...

IMO, the fact that devek's monster is in the same range at all w/the FI gang on a dyno is the truly amazing thing...our 6 banger brethren are getting 800rwhp w/FI... compare that to 6 banger NA and it's a different scale entirely...THAT'S the kind of ultimate FI/NA gap I'd expect on our 8 banger beasts... IMO, with all due respect to what you've done in a fairly short time, you FI gents need to get busy blowing/ sucking/ building/ whatever... cause from what I've seen- 1100rwhp is the V8 FI range for vettes, stangs, etc and THAT'S what you are faced with/need to compete with, not "old tech" NA stuff...

bcdavis

True about the smog thing... Living in CA, I have to look at the time it takes to R&R a FI system. Having to remove it every year or two can be a pain in the butt... And yes, if I was planning on, or wanted to rebuild my motor, then indeed a stroker would be the way to go. Or, in some people's plans, the best thing to do when rebuilding a motor, is to build it to take boost...

Tim Murphy

I don’t think I need to quote the rest of it.


I would be happy to help George achieve this goal if I can. If George does achieve this goal I would not consider taking any credit for his achievements, they would not be mine to claim. I provided him with a supercharger kit that he purchased and yes, this does make the car go faster but as you know it takes a lot more than just having a fast car. My car goes fast and I couldn’t do it right now. For the record, if George was able to achieve the claim of “the fastest 928 ever” it would be solely his achievement to claim. I would just be happy that I could help out.

As far as the belt slippage issue, it’s not belt slippage that he is having a problem with. He is having a problem with a restricted air intake with the intake routing being interfered by the oil cooler under the radiator and the mount for the belly pan (exclusive to 90MY and later). He did his best to squeeze it in there but it isn’t working out as hoped for. (George was my first 90MY+ customer BTW). I have another solution that is now running on three other cars that I will discuss with George to help resolve the problem. We’ll figure it out.

Anyway, I’m not picking on strokers or you Marc. As a matter of fact I’m currently involved with building three stroker motors, one for myself.

Old & New

Tim,

Would my dual intake configuration be suitable for the '90?

Tony

Bzzzzz. I disagree.

True, it is perhaps "officially" documented the fastest , with all the factoids attatched to it...pumps gas..driven here..driven there ... yadda yadda but in reality i dont think it is.

My guess, and it just a guess, is that either Marks Andersons or Joe Fans car could be dragged out to the flats or ORR and take 210 with out too much issue. They have no reason to do so it will be left to be an unknown. Im not sure what gearing there running either. I wonder what they would charged to rent them for a weekend to find out.?

The speed that you reached and the place you did it took nads, i will give you that Marc.

Carl Fausett

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my sons - "Is Michael Jordan the best basketball player that ever lived?" We will never know. Somewhere out there their may actually be a person with better basketball skills - but he prefers to play Chess. MJ is the best BBall player that ever played Basketball.

So, I say, we have to give Marc T this one. I do not know if he has the fastest 928 in the world, but I would say, he has the highest open-road straight-line speed that is documented.

bcdavis - I have a thread called "Answer: "Why are the 928 Supercharger Kits so Expensive?" that attempts to explain a bit about pricing. I think you will like it.

I do not know how to embed a thread in rennlist so you can just click on it to got o it, so please just look it up by name. I posted it just yeaterday.