Oil Condition Report No 8 - Delvac 1 5w-40
08-27-2004, 07:15 AM
#16
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I ran the car on a local 1.8 mile 10 turn track for about 25 laps as part of a 1500 mile trip and discovered that I was down 2 quarts when I returned home.
I once sucked up almost 2 quarts at Pocono raceway in 25min a session when running half of the tri-oval in the GT years ago.
08-27-2004, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
Dave C - good points!
Right back at ya!Your research and reports have saved and will continue to save me a at least a hundred dollars per year on oil.
If I'm ever Down Under, I'm going to hunt you down and buy you 9 quarts of your favorite beverage!!!
09-01-2004, 06:34 AM
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Doug
Any thoughts on how Delvac 1 would work in an air cooled Porsche?
I have an early 911 and a 914 that sit for extended periods and the description of the additives look like this would be a good oil but there might be that certain something that the aircooled crowd needs.
Thanks again for your efforts in this area.
glenn
Any thoughts on how Delvac 1 would work in an air cooled Porsche?
I have an early 911 and a 914 that sit for extended periods and the description of the additives look like this would be a good oil but there might be that certain something that the aircooled crowd needs.
Thanks again for your efforts in this area.
glenn
09-01-2004, 10:33 AM
#19
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Hi Glenn,
The 356's and 911's were mostly delivered with a Heavy Duty (HD) diesel performance rated oil from the factory. This changed later (late 60's-early 70's) as multi grade oils proved to be quite durable but Porsche wisely always insisted on the HD diesel rating in the oil's specification
These initial use oils were mono(single) grade SAE20w-20, 30, 40 etc and they were very durable due to their lack of Viscosity Improvers - important then in air cooled engines due to piston/bore clearances etc. They most importantly controlled engine deposits extremely well when compared to the normal "petrol" oils of the day
Here in OZ Castrol for instance have recommended a mineral 15w-50 or 15w-40 for the 911 range from 1976 until 1998. For "track days" they have recommended a 0w-30 or 10w-60 synthetic
In 1992 Porsche approved M1 5w-30 for all seasons use and some mineral 10w-30, 10w-40 and etc oils according to the prevailing ambient
About 2001 Porsche apparently moved on to recommend only Group 3 hydro-cracked synthetic oil (or the higher Group 4 and 5) for all vehicles dating back to 1973 but with significant minimum (new) specifications. As mentioned earlier these were that they must have a minimum HTHS vis. of 3.5cSt and meet other anti foaming and performance standards including ACEA's A3-96/B3-96 criteria
Delvac 1 5w-40 meets all of Porsche's 2001 standards for use in vehicles from 1973 onwards (subject to the viscosity/ambient requirements) and it is a "mixed fleet" HDEO of the highest order with the latest API "SL" petrol engine rating (and the very latest diesel rating "CI-4" too). It has a HTHS vis. of 4.1cSt. As a Group 5 fully synthetic it has a significant ester content!
These synthetic HDEO's (Delvac 1, Shell Rotella T and etc) are designed for extremely high piston temperatures, severe turbo charger boost up to 30psi and valve train wear control second to none at high wiping pressures. Their anti-wear additives seem to work well in air cooled engines and in motorcycles too. Synthetics can run air cooled engines cooler due to their better flow characteristics and usually by up to 10C - especially important in the cylinder head area
As for corrosion control in low use vehicles all modern HDEO's (mineral or synthetic) are better by far than their petrol engine specific counterparts due to their high Total base Number (TBN) which is a measure of their acid neutralising capacity
I would use it in your vehicles if the viscosity suits your climate and would monitor its use. If you are using a 15w-50 synthetic at present you may notice a drop in idling oil pressure but of course oil flow will still be the same or better. If your 914 specifically requires a single viscosity oil then Delvac 1300 HDEO mineral oil is available in viscosities from SAE20 to SAE50
Regards
Doug
The 356's and 911's were mostly delivered with a Heavy Duty (HD) diesel performance rated oil from the factory. This changed later (late 60's-early 70's) as multi grade oils proved to be quite durable but Porsche wisely always insisted on the HD diesel rating in the oil's specification
These initial use oils were mono(single) grade SAE20w-20, 30, 40 etc and they were very durable due to their lack of Viscosity Improvers - important then in air cooled engines due to piston/bore clearances etc. They most importantly controlled engine deposits extremely well when compared to the normal "petrol" oils of the day
Here in OZ Castrol for instance have recommended a mineral 15w-50 or 15w-40 for the 911 range from 1976 until 1998. For "track days" they have recommended a 0w-30 or 10w-60 synthetic
In 1992 Porsche approved M1 5w-30 for all seasons use and some mineral 10w-30, 10w-40 and etc oils according to the prevailing ambient
About 2001 Porsche apparently moved on to recommend only Group 3 hydro-cracked synthetic oil (or the higher Group 4 and 5) for all vehicles dating back to 1973 but with significant minimum (new) specifications. As mentioned earlier these were that they must have a minimum HTHS vis. of 3.5cSt and meet other anti foaming and performance standards including ACEA's A3-96/B3-96 criteria
Delvac 1 5w-40 meets all of Porsche's 2001 standards for use in vehicles from 1973 onwards (subject to the viscosity/ambient requirements) and it is a "mixed fleet" HDEO of the highest order with the latest API "SL" petrol engine rating (and the very latest diesel rating "CI-4" too). It has a HTHS vis. of 4.1cSt. As a Group 5 fully synthetic it has a significant ester content!
These synthetic HDEO's (Delvac 1, Shell Rotella T and etc) are designed for extremely high piston temperatures, severe turbo charger boost up to 30psi and valve train wear control second to none at high wiping pressures. Their anti-wear additives seem to work well in air cooled engines and in motorcycles too. Synthetics can run air cooled engines cooler due to their better flow characteristics and usually by up to 10C - especially important in the cylinder head area
As for corrosion control in low use vehicles all modern HDEO's (mineral or synthetic) are better by far than their petrol engine specific counterparts due to their high Total base Number (TBN) which is a measure of their acid neutralising capacity
I would use it in your vehicles if the viscosity suits your climate and would monitor its use. If you are using a 15w-50 synthetic at present you may notice a drop in idling oil pressure but of course oil flow will still be the same or better. If your 914 specifically requires a single viscosity oil then Delvac 1300 HDEO mineral oil is available in viscosities from SAE20 to SAE50
Regards
Doug
09-01-2004, 05:45 PM
#20
We have discussed this before Doug, but if there is no real difference between the boutique stuff like redline, roytal purple, and what I use: Amsoil 20/50 Racing oil - And the off the sheft like your delvac and the mobile 1 15-50 Supersyn, should I still use my amsoil? I was abouy to roder more last time you brought this up, and now that I am driving the exxon valdese 120 miles a day, I need more oil - and I coud just as easily go into Walmart and buy the jugs of mobile 1.
09-01-2004, 07:37 PM
#21
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Hi Brendan,
I have always tried not to be drawn into the "which Brand of oil" issue. I use Castrol, Mobil, Shell and Chevron-Caltex lubricants and have done so for several decades! I really do have an open mind except on the significant benefits of synthetics in certain applications
At the top end of the oil heirachy Group 5 synthetics rule. Even so, in normal use, as long as the recommended quality specification oil is used, recommended OC periods followed and the correct viscosity is used with common sense, the oil's Maker is all rather acedemic - most people wear the car out before the engine!
Love it or hate it (and I don't particularly like ExxonMobil) the most popular and the largest selling synthetic oil is Mobil 1 in its various formulations. This is not because of slick advertising or claims of meaningless "4 ball scar wear" test results - it is because of performance and user results. Personally I use it in only one vehicle - my wife's MY02 VW Golf
There is no doubt that M1 (and another one or two synthetics) may show lower oil pressure than others when hot and at idle. As long as 1.5-2.5bar shows at idle and 4bar above 4k rpm, all is well. The lower OP is due to its better flow characteristics and remember that the oil pump's flow is constant (per rev)
Porsche set an initial lubricant specification for the 928 and this specification should always be followed or exceeded. As well they have updated that specification (see earlier post) at least twice as user experience dictated and as technologies improved and we benefit from this as they were backdated
Racing is a different case. Some formulations are designed for racing and last year I prepared a chart on this Forum covering "Racing Oils". Many of these oils contain higher levels of certain additives such as zinc (in various forms) and many have higher viscosities (say 25w-60) to endure fuel dilution and etc. Some "boutique" blenders have special small volume-special application formulations too. All of these usually have a high HTHS viscosity and all begin to drag power down when this nears 5cSt. Many do not work well in normal road use due to their sometimes unique additive package
Going by info provided on here in the past it is obvious that some engines have failed when racing due to the use of out of specification oils! This is simply a wrong technical decision not a fault of the lubricant. This will always happen if due care is not taken in selecting a product to be put under undue stress - or to apply it for an unintended use
The trend now amongst racing oil makers is for very low viscosity oils 0w-20 etc with very advanced chemicals enabling a HTHS vis around 3cSt - this releases power. The big players will always lead in this area due to their very generous Research & Development budgets as these products usually find their way into off-the-shelf products like M1 SuperSyn
Brendan - for normal use a race oil may be out of specification and not suitable. Amsoil make some excellent road use oils and some do have API or ACEA quality "approval-certification". Those that say "meets API SL..." etc probably don't!
Mobil 1 SuperSyn is the most cost effective synthetic deal anywhere! A very safe choice of oil in a 928! We will see a lot more of the SuperSyn technology amongst "boutique" oil blenders. As you know I put my money where my mouth and writings are - I use Delvac 1 5w-40 synthetic HDEO
I really like Shell's Helix Ultra synthetic - so do Ferrari! Being an advanced Group 3 lubricant it is cheaper and I use it in some cars and light trucks and have done since about 1990. It has been in my Husqvarna ride-on since 1998 without an oil change!
I can make available to you a viscosity/temperature chart of oil characteristics during warm up in a 928 - contact me privately if you want it e-mailed
Kind Regards
Doug
I have always tried not to be drawn into the "which Brand of oil" issue. I use Castrol, Mobil, Shell and Chevron-Caltex lubricants and have done so for several decades! I really do have an open mind except on the significant benefits of synthetics in certain applications
At the top end of the oil heirachy Group 5 synthetics rule. Even so, in normal use, as long as the recommended quality specification oil is used, recommended OC periods followed and the correct viscosity is used with common sense, the oil's Maker is all rather acedemic - most people wear the car out before the engine!
Love it or hate it (and I don't particularly like ExxonMobil) the most popular and the largest selling synthetic oil is Mobil 1 in its various formulations. This is not because of slick advertising or claims of meaningless "4 ball scar wear" test results - it is because of performance and user results. Personally I use it in only one vehicle - my wife's MY02 VW Golf
There is no doubt that M1 (and another one or two synthetics) may show lower oil pressure than others when hot and at idle. As long as 1.5-2.5bar shows at idle and 4bar above 4k rpm, all is well. The lower OP is due to its better flow characteristics and remember that the oil pump's flow is constant (per rev)
Porsche set an initial lubricant specification for the 928 and this specification should always be followed or exceeded. As well they have updated that specification (see earlier post) at least twice as user experience dictated and as technologies improved and we benefit from this as they were backdated
Racing is a different case. Some formulations are designed for racing and last year I prepared a chart on this Forum covering "Racing Oils". Many of these oils contain higher levels of certain additives such as zinc (in various forms) and many have higher viscosities (say 25w-60) to endure fuel dilution and etc. Some "boutique" blenders have special small volume-special application formulations too. All of these usually have a high HTHS viscosity and all begin to drag power down when this nears 5cSt. Many do not work well in normal road use due to their sometimes unique additive package
Going by info provided on here in the past it is obvious that some engines have failed when racing due to the use of out of specification oils! This is simply a wrong technical decision not a fault of the lubricant. This will always happen if due care is not taken in selecting a product to be put under undue stress - or to apply it for an unintended use
The trend now amongst racing oil makers is for very low viscosity oils 0w-20 etc with very advanced chemicals enabling a HTHS vis around 3cSt - this releases power. The big players will always lead in this area due to their very generous Research & Development budgets as these products usually find their way into off-the-shelf products like M1 SuperSyn
Brendan - for normal use a race oil may be out of specification and not suitable. Amsoil make some excellent road use oils and some do have API or ACEA quality "approval-certification". Those that say "meets API SL..." etc probably don't!
Mobil 1 SuperSyn is the most cost effective synthetic deal anywhere! A very safe choice of oil in a 928! We will see a lot more of the SuperSyn technology amongst "boutique" oil blenders. As you know I put my money where my mouth and writings are - I use Delvac 1 5w-40 synthetic HDEO
I really like Shell's Helix Ultra synthetic - so do Ferrari! Being an advanced Group 3 lubricant it is cheaper and I use it in some cars and light trucks and have done since about 1990. It has been in my Husqvarna ride-on since 1998 without an oil change!
I can make available to you a viscosity/temperature chart of oil characteristics during warm up in a 928 - contact me privately if you want it e-mailed
Kind Regards
Doug
09-01-2004, 08:16 PM
#22
Once again thanks for your info Doug. I'm thinking that I take engines apart and switch parts so much that I shouldn't even worry about this crap and buy the cheaper stuff (mobile 1) - and I would probably gain some power from the 20/50 syrup that I usually use!
I'll read up in the thread, but Delvac 5/40 is WHAT on my American Walmart Shelves?
Thanks
I'll read up in the thread, but Delvac 5/40 is WHAT on my American Walmart Shelves?
Thanks
09-02-2004, 05:56 PM
#23
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Doug
Most manufacturers have a mileage and time recommendation, usually one year. On a low mileage per year use vehicle, is it OK to exceed a year?
Doug Wrote:
I really like Shell's Helix Ultra synthetic - so do Ferrari! Being an advanced Group 3 lubricant it is cheaper and I use it in some cars and light trucks and have done since about 1990. It has been in my Husqvarna ride-on since 1998 without an oil change!
Most manufacturers have a mileage and time recommendation, usually one year. On a low mileage per year use vehicle, is it OK to exceed a year?
Doug Wrote:
I really like Shell's Helix Ultra synthetic - so do Ferrari! Being an advanced Group 3 lubricant it is cheaper and I use it in some cars and light trucks and have done since about 1990. It has been in my Husqvarna ride-on since 1998 without an oil change!
09-02-2004, 06:44 PM
#24
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Hi Earl,
going by my two sets of Oil condition Reports, four on Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 ( to 13.5k kms), and four on Delvac 1 5w-40 (to 19.1k kms) both of these high quality synthetic oils were still entirely suitable for use beyond twelve months in my 928 S4
The same situation has applied with Delvac 1 in a Heavy Truck I use in PuD work and only covers about 20k miles per year - UOAs suggest it is still suitable for use. We change it anyway!
Most trucks have their OC intervals in similar PuD use at around 6k kms when using a mineral oil
However, due to the variables in use (the number of cold to fully "hot" cycles being one) it is wise to drop the oil annually unless you have it analysed and at the least the water content, TBN (acid neutralising) and sodium etc. are OK'd by the Lab.
As mentioned earlier HDEOs are excellent at corrosion control and etc. Most synthetics are too.
Already the Euro makers are extending oil drain intervals out to two years or 30-40k and beyond. This is subject to using approved oil specifications. We can expect to see more of this as sump mounted electronic oil condition sensors are reliable enough to accurately predict the time/distance change point
These sensor controls will(are) measure the structure of the oil and its content of certain metals/contaminants - not unlike the Oil Condition Report in my car. Importantly they will also log engine use data like the number of ignition cycles, the number of under/over minimum/maximum oil temperature cycles and idle cycle time. These are easy to log and have been done on heavy diesels for many years. The matrix of these will produce the critical oil change point!
I have left Shell Helix synthetic in another ride-on for 10 years without any drama - true "filled for life". We can expect to see more of it soon too - and promoted by the Manufacturers too!
This long winded answer suggests that it is best to do a 3/4 term UOA to see if the target oil change point is viable - or use 12 months limit as Porsche suggests
Beware however - I believe that VW and others are having engine deposit control issues - usually caused by using non-approved/specification lubricants. This is why the HDEOs are so good for our cars!
Regards Earl,
Doug
going by my two sets of Oil condition Reports, four on Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 ( to 13.5k kms), and four on Delvac 1 5w-40 (to 19.1k kms) both of these high quality synthetic oils were still entirely suitable for use beyond twelve months in my 928 S4
The same situation has applied with Delvac 1 in a Heavy Truck I use in PuD work and only covers about 20k miles per year - UOAs suggest it is still suitable for use. We change it anyway!
Most trucks have their OC intervals in similar PuD use at around 6k kms when using a mineral oil
However, due to the variables in use (the number of cold to fully "hot" cycles being one) it is wise to drop the oil annually unless you have it analysed and at the least the water content, TBN (acid neutralising) and sodium etc. are OK'd by the Lab.
As mentioned earlier HDEOs are excellent at corrosion control and etc. Most synthetics are too.
Already the Euro makers are extending oil drain intervals out to two years or 30-40k and beyond. This is subject to using approved oil specifications. We can expect to see more of this as sump mounted electronic oil condition sensors are reliable enough to accurately predict the time/distance change point
These sensor controls will(are) measure the structure of the oil and its content of certain metals/contaminants - not unlike the Oil Condition Report in my car. Importantly they will also log engine use data like the number of ignition cycles, the number of under/over minimum/maximum oil temperature cycles and idle cycle time. These are easy to log and have been done on heavy diesels for many years. The matrix of these will produce the critical oil change point!
I have left Shell Helix synthetic in another ride-on for 10 years without any drama - true "filled for life". We can expect to see more of it soon too - and promoted by the Manufacturers too!
This long winded answer suggests that it is best to do a 3/4 term UOA to see if the target oil change point is viable - or use 12 months limit as Porsche suggests
Beware however - I believe that VW and others are having engine deposit control issues - usually caused by using non-approved/specification lubricants. This is why the HDEOs are so good for our cars!
Regards Earl,
Doug
09-02-2004, 08:12 PM
#25
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Great stuff Doug!! I have to say that it is refreshing to hear some qualified statements regarding oil performnce rather than personal opinions. Its also great to see an Aussie perspective on viscocity etc as we generally have higher average temps throughout the year than most (I think I can say that).
I have read your infomration on the Aust 928 site with interest as I am a bit of an obsessive compulsive with most things to do with my '90 944 S2. I have been using Penrite 10w-50 and 15w-60 for a while but have concerns with the higher end numbers of these oils. Also they seem quite expensive at $34/5L given that they are a mix of group 1 and group 3 oils! The 15w-60 has a HTHS of around the 6 mark and you can really feel the drop in engine response compared to a 50 weight (10w-50) which has a HTHS of 5.1! I have never tracked my car and so consistently high oil temps aren't really an issue for me and thus my concern is am I comprimising my engines longevity in day to day driving through cold starts etc for the sake of very high HTHS that I don't really need? I was going to try a 15w-40 this summer and see how it goes compared to the Penrite. Do you have any reccomendations for an ACEA A3 and API SL rated oil in this viscocity range?
Thanks and regards.
I have read your infomration on the Aust 928 site with interest as I am a bit of an obsessive compulsive with most things to do with my '90 944 S2. I have been using Penrite 10w-50 and 15w-60 for a while but have concerns with the higher end numbers of these oils. Also they seem quite expensive at $34/5L given that they are a mix of group 1 and group 3 oils! The 15w-60 has a HTHS of around the 6 mark and you can really feel the drop in engine response compared to a 50 weight (10w-50) which has a HTHS of 5.1! I have never tracked my car and so consistently high oil temps aren't really an issue for me and thus my concern is am I comprimising my engines longevity in day to day driving through cold starts etc for the sake of very high HTHS that I don't really need? I was going to try a 15w-40 this summer and see how it goes compared to the Penrite. Do you have any reccomendations for an ACEA A3 and API SL rated oil in this viscocity range?
Thanks and regards.
09-02-2004, 10:11 PM
#26
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Hi Aussie S2,
the Penrite oils seem grossly overpriced to me. The "Classic" range for classic vehicles probably fill any void left by BP-ARAL's takeover of Castrol
I will forward an e-mail (next 24 hours) to you covering the effect of viscosity against temperature - a little complex and long but of value. It certainly shows the reasons why more viscous oil than recommended steal power and cause greater wear during the critical startup period
In OZ there are a number of "mixed fleet" HDEO's rated at CI-4/SL available. I hestitate to nominate a Brand but I do know Castrol's excellent RX Super 15w-40 very well indeed - millions of Kms experience
The synthetic HDEO 5w-40's like Delvac 1 and Shell Rotella T and Delo ? are first rate. I noticed a MOTUL version the other day as well. The HDEOs will not list a ACEA A3 rating (petrol) but as long as they meet API's "CI-4/SL" standards they will exceed ACEA's A3-98/B3-98 quality standards. The mineral HDEO's have a HTHS vis of 3.7+cST and the listed synthetics are over 4cSt.
Regards
Doug
the Penrite oils seem grossly overpriced to me. The "Classic" range for classic vehicles probably fill any void left by BP-ARAL's takeover of Castrol
I will forward an e-mail (next 24 hours) to you covering the effect of viscosity against temperature - a little complex and long but of value. It certainly shows the reasons why more viscous oil than recommended steal power and cause greater wear during the critical startup period
In OZ there are a number of "mixed fleet" HDEO's rated at CI-4/SL available. I hestitate to nominate a Brand but I do know Castrol's excellent RX Super 15w-40 very well indeed - millions of Kms experience
The synthetic HDEO 5w-40's like Delvac 1 and Shell Rotella T and Delo ? are first rate. I noticed a MOTUL version the other day as well. The HDEOs will not list a ACEA A3 rating (petrol) but as long as they meet API's "CI-4/SL" standards they will exceed ACEA's A3-98/B3-98 quality standards. The mineral HDEO's have a HTHS vis of 3.7+cST and the listed synthetics are over 4cSt.
Regards
Doug
09-06-2004, 06:58 PM
#27
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Hi Doug!
Switched to "brandX" 5w-50 synthetic on the weekend and I'm impressed already. No leaks, better 'cold' starting (Brisbane in Spring temps) and an oil pressure thats not too high and not too low.
I have done a little digging around and have come accross a Penrite document that suggests Penrite merely reccomend their oils against manufactureres specs as they cannot afford to do all the certification. Despite this they still don't mind printing "porsche approved" on their data sheets and oil containers despite not having spent and $'s getting the real stamp of approval. This seems to agree with the Porsche list of approved oils I have that makes no mention of Penrite at all. I'm very dissapointed with Penrite if it is true! I'm going to call them to find out the real deal!
Thanks for your help. If my car continues to be leak free I am going to try BrandY 5w-40 in about 12.5km.
Once again thanks for your help and safe porsche motoring!
Paul S
'90 944 S2
Switched to "brandX" 5w-50 synthetic on the weekend and I'm impressed already. No leaks, better 'cold' starting (Brisbane in Spring temps) and an oil pressure thats not too high and not too low.
I have done a little digging around and have come accross a Penrite document that suggests Penrite merely reccomend their oils against manufactureres specs as they cannot afford to do all the certification. Despite this they still don't mind printing "porsche approved" on their data sheets and oil containers despite not having spent and $'s getting the real stamp of approval. This seems to agree with the Porsche list of approved oils I have that makes no mention of Penrite at all. I'm very dissapointed with Penrite if it is true! I'm going to call them to find out the real deal!
Thanks for your help. If my car continues to be leak free I am going to try BrandY 5w-40 in about 12.5km.
Once again thanks for your help and safe porsche motoring!
Paul S
'90 944 S2
09-06-2004, 07:12 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
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Hi Paul,
yes the "meets Porsche Approval" and "meets API...." or "meets ACEA...." and etc. is quite misleading! Some of the tests used by some of these boutique oil Companies do not even match the official test protocols! Sadly some of their products are very good. Some will/may lead to warranty claims being refused when under scrutiny!
Obtaining the official Approvals and Quality Certifications does cost a lot of money - but those without them still charge boutique prices!
Sounds like you have done the "right thing" now and BrandY will work well when you change over
Its sure been a warm kick off to spring - it was 28C here yesterday!
Brisbane sure is a wonderful City in the spring!
Regards
Doug
yes the "meets Porsche Approval" and "meets API...." or "meets ACEA...." and etc. is quite misleading! Some of the tests used by some of these boutique oil Companies do not even match the official test protocols! Sadly some of their products are very good. Some will/may lead to warranty claims being refused when under scrutiny!
Obtaining the official Approvals and Quality Certifications does cost a lot of money - but those without them still charge boutique prices!
Sounds like you have done the "right thing" now and BrandY will work well when you change over
Its sure been a warm kick off to spring - it was 28C here yesterday!
Brisbane sure is a wonderful City in the spring!
Regards
Doug
