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Hi guys
I'll keep posting episodes on this thread as I do them. There's still a lot in them for the petrol-head 928 lovers as I disassemble and tidy up the old girl, selling the bits I don't need. LIke the 5-speed with LSD and the donk.
Not everyone will agree with the idea of an electric 928 but that's fine. To each their own. Sorry to see a debate started and got a bit heated. Let's chill.
I'll avoid getting involved in political or ideological debate but happy to answer any technical questions about the project.
In case people missed episodes 2 and 3, here's #3. Another one out later this week.
Well I'm sorry you feel that way, I really am. Too many home truths, huh? You seem to have failed to notice that I only responded to the anti EV myths and lies being repeated here in this thread. But they're ok, yes? However, pointing out their inaccuracy is not? Ok, I get it.
It is everyone's prerogative to feel offended at whatever they choose to be offended by, but makes true discussion kinda hard.
Ever heard of primary water? Oil is the same way. The earth produces them continuously. Just like oxygen, as long as there are plants and sunlight, there will be oxygen.
Are you saying oil is being continuously produced so it is therefore infinite? If so, I think you need to get a better understanding of the timescales involved and our rate of consumption.
No Ken, as usual, you're not missing something. Very good illustrative reply, thank you.
Yes the SDU and LDU are the safe option. I removed the gearbox and torque tube today and there's so much space there, but as you point out, the structural cross member impedes the use of M3 motor in its standard configuration.
I've ruled out upside down (lubrication) and spun 180 degrees (too many unknowns with software, gear loading), but I continue to consider the M3 motor. One would need to do two things. Develop your own cross member making sure it used the same location points to chassis (6 large bolts) and control arms, shock mounts. This would certainly pose issues at certification though, as obviously better not to change any structural member. And it would sit lower and reduce ground clearance and need to be very carefully designed to ensure it had enough rigidity. The second thing would be to sacrifice the rear seats, as the non-structural steel would need to be removed and repanelled to clear the motor. There is actually a benefit in Australia in reducing the seat capacity from 4 to 2, as it allows great dispensation in tare weight, but I don't think weight is going to be an issue anyway. Something like : max permissable tare weight = original weight * factor - (number of allowed pasengers x 75kg). But I think it would be better to retain the rear seats, as I want the car to have no compromises compared to a 'real' 928.
So the upshot is - you're probably right. I should go looking for a wrecked Model S, not a Model 3, and use the tried and proven approach of a SDU or LDU as shown in the rear of the Model S cars in your (very helpful) diagram. And funny enough - both are coming up for salvage auction tomorrow in Australia. One is 4,000km away, but hey... I'll be watching.
Thanks again for your input.
Yes it's not just the crossmember that is in the way. That may even have to be modified to fit an LDU or maybe SDU (LDU more suitable for 928 I think). The problem is that the actual body shell ahead of the crossmember and drive shafts is shaped quite close to where the gearbox normally sits and there's no room there for anything as wide as the Tesla DU which of course is motor on one side and inverter etc on the other side, making it all very wide. There would need to be considerable modification of the shell for that and rear seating would have to be sacrificed.
In Australia that may be an advantage as you say, but a complete 'no no' here in the UK as any modification of the body/chassis structure would lose the car's registration and all the testing involved in order to re-register it would make the entire project unfeasible. Besides, having the rear seats is one of the great features of the 928 and be a shame to sacrifice that.
If going the Tesla route, I still think an S/X LDU is the way to go, but I would like to know how much the crossbeam would have to be modified to fit one of those in, if at all.
Well I'm sorry you feel that way, I really am. Too many home truths, huh? You seem to have failed to notice that I only responded to the anti EV myths and lies being repeated here in this thread. But they're ok, yes? However, pointing out their inaccuracy is not? Ok, I get it.
It is everyone's prerogative to feel offended at whatever they choose to be offended by, but makes true discussion kinda hard.
Since you seem well versed in the EV world, you are probably aware there is a level of anti-EV folks out there who will not change their mind no matter how many "truths" you post. In a forum dedicated to the longevity and maintenance of a classic gas powered car, even more so.
Which begs the question, do you really want to discuss options and ides for such a project or just looking to troll the board?
If your actual intentions are option A, be more like Keanu, otherwise you're just trolling.
Are you seriously suggesting our oil supply is INFINITE? Anyone who claims such nonsense clearly does not understand the actual meaning of the word.
Let's be quite clear here. If we continue to use oil, it WILL run out. I have no doubt it will take many years, certainly not in our lifetime and yes, more sources will be discovered that will mean it lasts longer, but eventually it will be gone. That raises 2 issues:-
Just burying our heads in the sand and ignoring the problem would simply be shifting responsibility to later generations to sort out. This "not my problem" attitude has to be the ultimate in selfishness. Particularly as the problem would be getting worse in the meantime. How can anyone justify carrying on regardless so someone else has to clean up the mess. It's the same basic attitude as throwing litter out the car window, so it's now "not my problem" and "someone else will clean it up". Sadly this despicable attitude is far too commonplace.
The other point of concern is that we should reserve the remaining stocks of oil for those uses for which there is currently no alternative and there most assuredly IS an alternative when it comes to pushing around metal cages carrying humans. Some of those humans may not like the alternative, but, well, tough. If we don't mend our ways, we will be damaging this planet, possibly irreparably, just for the sake of those selfish individuals, so they can continue to get their jollies by burning fossil fuel. All the while knowing full well what they are doing.
I am not targeting this diatribe against 928 owners as they represent an insignificant problem if every existing 928 continued to spew filth into the atmosphere. It is the entire motor industry and the car buying public that need to embrace this change. Or do you have so little concern for others that it's "not my problem" and you're happy to let someone else clear up your filth - that you knowingly and willingly created.
I fully understand the love for the ICE. I've been a petrolhead for more than 60 years now and still have many ICE powered vehicles. However they are hardly driven as I prefer to drive an EV. That last is of course simply my opinion and others will vary. Whatever my continued interest in the ICE, there is no denying that we need to change. All of us. Understand that and adapt accordingly.
Or are you one of the selfish ones.
Well stated. A few things to consider. ALL Transportation only accounts for 20% of global CO emissions. Car and other forms of personal transportation is far less. So If every form of personal transportation, planes, ocean liners, trains and auto's went to zero the reduction of global carbon consumption and related emission would only be reduced by the same or about 20%. Heating homes, food production and production of goods for comfort and consumption are a far greater use of over all energy and carbon emissions. No doubt oil is finite, ALL of it will be consumed and all the carbon will be emitted...its just a matter of how fast and by who and for what purpose....unless a meteor strikes earth and turn us all to dust first. More in the moment... game theory is always at play. Every drop of oil produced will be consumed by someone. If not you, then someone else to do something they feel is productive or fun. All around the world but more so in Europe its now common place for localities to tax personal transportation for carbon emissions reasons while simultaneously encouraging the build out of luxury apartments that have an enormous carbon foot prints to build and ever increasing and ongoing foot prints to maintain because of such amenities as heated pools, outdoor heated areas and vast unused heated and cooled spaces. It's lop sided and favors those who control the narrative.
In simple terms that leaves two solutions to the problem of personal transportation and other uses like heating and food productions by extension.
1. Less production
2. Substitutes
Less production will effect less productive economies more, (poor people) so that will only increase inequality because developed economies will adjust to the price. Even the price shock in the 70's is a distant memory and did nothing to curtail overall consumption and carbon emissions.
Substitutes in the form of current Electric cars, and public transportation also increase inequality. We need better substitutes but NOT only for transportation. Electric cars are a wonderful options for people who can afford solar panels and have the space, place and time to recharge them.
If you think Flying is expensive now just wait until all the Air Planes are electric. Sadly I think increasing inequality lowering freedom of movement is the goal, as more middle class people will be forced to use public transportation exclusively and have their leisure travel curtailed because of increased costs. All the while the rich will be able to absorb these higher cost of energy and suffer zero curtailments.
European attitudes differ greatly form those in the USA because the USA has near absolute freedom of speech. In European countries group think prevails because less free speech and social pressures that follow. I've often been amused how far people from the UK are willing to go-to-the-mat for climate and against oil and carbon. I've heard of young people in the UK choosing to NOT to take vacations or and limit their flying to reduce their "carbon foot print" . The UK is a small country and carbon for travel is a very small part of over all carbon emissions. This self suppressive behavior is useless, ineffective at the global level and foolish. Someone else will use that jet fuel and travel to a warn sunny vacation spot at a lower price, while someone huddles in their flat, cold under a blanket by their own choice. The net result for carbon reduction is zero.
Living in NYC as a family of 7 while driving a large SUV has made me the occasional target of Climate ****'s. This has often coincides with events like NYC Climate Week or Earth Day. They often say things like... "You're a pig for driving that" ," You don't need that" , "Next time buy a bigger car". These and other comments are just some I've heard over the years. More than once a motorist in Prius signaled to me to roll down the window for a chat while crawling in Slow traffic on one of NYC's avenues. Taking the time to chastise me for my transportation choices. I inform them I'm a family of 7 so how else shall we move around? Two cars? As if they are entitled to transport only themselves in the singular while I shouldn't do the same for a small group. This sometime leads to being jeered for having such a large family too. As if I curtailed my family behavior I'd need a smaller car... as If I have no right to a family of my own fitness whom I fully support. Shouts and hand signals from the sidewalk have been ways others have made their feelings known when the green, pink and purple haired people descend upon NYC at their ritualistic climate events. Sometimes the talks are civil and sometimes not and include with me saying something like "I'll burn every drop of oil you save". That always ends the dialogue. Crude to say but that reality is extrapolated at scale every day globally.
Ken if you really cared about carbon you'd encourage everyone to take their cars and move to the plains of warm and sunny areas (central Africa and central America) where the use of carbon for heating is not needed and where we can all hunt and graze for our own food. These two things (heating and food production) are far greater uses of carbon based energy than you're shiny personal transportation box. I'm sure the people already there will welcome us all with open arms and help us get established once we explain and educate them that its all for the good of the planet. Don't worry, live your best life, this will all get worked out long after we're both gone, unless that inbound meteor makes us all redundant.
Last edited by icsamerica; 11-27-2023 at 02:33 PM.
… In European countries group think prevails because less free speech….
Mostly agree with what you said, apart from the above. You really think that? I cannot imagine how you arrive at that conclusion and seems like a rather inappropriate comment to make here, not least because it is completely and utterly incorrect.
Shall we keep nationalistic insults out of this and stick to the topic.
Mostly agree with what you said, apart from the above. You really think that? I cannot imagine how you arrive at that conclusion and seems like a rather inappropriate comment to make here, not least because it is completely and utterly incorrect.
Shall we keep nationalistic insults out of this and stick to the topic.
That's fair, And I do think group think prevails in the end more so in Europe than in the USA but maybe to a lesser degree in the UK as the UK has a specials relationship with the USA. Current events in the Neatherlands and Brexit not-with-standing. Group think certainly plays out here in the USA too but there are structurally differences in geography, our financial system and our political systems that have to be considered. Absolute levels of freedom of speech, wide open space and the vast and various geographies we have in the USA matter. We also have 50 laboratory's (states) to try things.
Let me try to give you an example of this group think that is auto related. By the late 90's most European cars are functionally and basically the same. Porsche, Audi, VW, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Opel, Vauxhall, Alfa Romero, Renault, Fiat are all making basically the same thing. A car in various levels of trim and luxury. 2 and 4 door versions with the occasional wagon variation of the same car. They're good too, and people all over the word want them. They are safe, efficient, quality and purposefully transportation using many shared parts in many cases. Land Rover being the glaring exception with an SUV. Then BAM... Tesla breaks the group think and model S goes on sale. Even before Tesla... SUV's or Cross overs aren't produced in quantity until the BMW X5 in 1999 along with the ML and even so those are still focused on the American Market at the time. SUV's have been a mainstay in the USA since the 70's.
That's how I see it and if you've got something to add I'd love to hear your perspective since American's like my self tend to be be Americentric for all the same reasons.
Last edited by icsamerica; 11-27-2023 at 02:35 PM.
…Which begs the question, do you really want to discuss options and ides for such a project or just looking to troll the board?
If your actual intentions are option A, be more like Keanu, otherwise you're just trolling…
A Troll actively seeks to provoke discord and argument and I have done no such thing. I am however one of the few (if not the only one) to actively discuss the technical options regarding the subject of this thread which is of great interest to me as I have an S4 I purchased a few years ago for the specific purpose of converting to EV and before this topic started I was already in communication with Stu about his project. So no, I am clearly not trolling.
Conversely, posting anti EV comments in a topic about an EV conversion is almost the very definition of trolling.
I have absolutely no wish to create any disharmony or bad feeling in this or any other thread, but when blatantly untrue comments are made (in this case against EVs), I seek only to enlighten and inform the truth. The fact that some find it hard or impossible to accept the truth is, to put it bluntly, not my problem. However I will try and resist the urge to make any further such 'corrections'.
Full disclosure, I also have an S2 that will remain with a V8. I am happy to discuss my reasons for this apparent EV ambivalence, but this is clearly not the place to do that.
So let's get back 'on topic' shall we.
What technical suggestions or questions regarding this project are forthcoming from other members?
Let me add another question for Stu. What thoughts have you had about power steering and Air Con?
Conversely, posting anti EV comments in a topic about an EV conversion is almost the very definition of trolling.
If this were an EV forum, sure. But it isn't, that's my point. You were fully aware going into this thread the topic would ruffle some feathers and you stoked the fire.
Read my post again, I laid out two options, it's your choice as to which path you choose to go down. If you continue down the path of feeling the need to correct everyone on "anti EV myths and lies being repeated" and continue such arguments that really have no benefit to the overall project, then you are choosing to troll the community.
I'm not going to sit here and have a tit for tat discussion as to what is or isn't trolling. It takes two to tango. Stop dancing and stay on topic and the naysayers will fade away, if they don't ignore them anyway. You're not going to change their mind.
Mostly agree with what you said, apart from the above. You really think that? I cannot imagine how you arrive at that conclusion and seems like a rather inappropriate comment to make here, not least because it is completely and utterly incorrect.
Shall we keep nationalistic insults out of this and stick to the topic.
such as insulting people individually? I think you are in idiot. There. I'm posting with your approval and along the lines you have drawn. By the way, Europe is old dead and stupid.
such as insulting people individually? I think you are in idiot. There. I'm posting with your approval and along the lines you have drawn. By the way, Europe is old dead and stupid.
+928
Quote:
Originally Posted by linderpat
…C U later, I'm out from this thread.
Originally Posted by UKenGB Well I'm sorry you feel that way, I really am. Too many home truths, huh?
Wow, I rarely see someone who's so full of it.
Everyone's wrong and only your opinions/views are correct. So you argue with everyone and a Hacker said, in an ICE forum. Yikes!
Oh, and btw, about that dinosaur oil running out? New deposits that were just found outside Guyana and Venezuela that will make that area our the new Middle East.
Enough oil for my great grand children to use. So stop spreading incorrect news about what you don't know about. Keep that for the EV forums
11-27-2023, 08:26 AM
Lots of technical Episodes to come
