hacker-pschorr

Back in 87 you could get an AMG Hammer with over 400ft-lbs of torque in a car that weighs close to 4,000lbs.

Thousands of threads on this topic in the Mercedes forums. Very little talk of failure (I've been in many such forums before Rennlist)
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...ear-start.html

GregBBRD

"And ignore that AMG made some special heavy duty parts, so that they could do 1st gear starts."

GregBBRD

Anyone who really appreciates humor has to love these kind of threads:

My business is to repair 928's.
Without any doubt, the more transmissions that fail, the better my business is.
Think about this, for a nano second.
If there is internal damage occurring from continuous 1st gear starts, I should be encouraging everyone to convert their car to 1st gear starts, right?

Contrary to that end, in this particular thread, I'm trying to tell people why Porsche did not allow full time 1st gear starts in the S4 models and made a change.
And what the ramifications of doing that, are.
I'm also mentioning what Mercedes did so that they could do 1st gear starts in the AMG series.

Note that I've got zero skin in this. Nothing to gain....actually the opposite.
Simply providing information and truth about what occurs.

Porken, who makes a product that allows 1st gear starts (and has zero experience dealing with transmission internals) attacks.
He attacks not what I'm saying about the issue and what occurs, internally (since he has no clue),
but only attacks my credibility. (Which he always does.)

That's hilarious, on many levels.
The first is the obvious irony: Someone, who has zero to gain in this exchange (me), is simply explaining what occurs internally, and why Porsche made this change. Versus a person, with zero internal transmission experience, promoting 1st gear starts (Even making a product to allow this.)
The second is that one Rennlist moderator allows (actually encourage) these kind of personal attacks, in threads. He apparently thinks that these personal attacks make Rennlist a better place to exchange thoughts, ideas, and facts about 928's.

Contrarily, look at the daily postings on this 928 Forum, today.
And go back and compare that to the daily postings from 3 or 4 years ago, when one moderator (in particular) began "chasing" very high quality contributors away.

Humorous, sad, and pathetic all wrapped up into one bundle.

Darklands

I think we haven't enough mechanics to fix all broken 928 drivetrains yet and in the future.
Maybe the more bottom end torque of the 32 V engines make this changes necessary.

GregBBRD

If the rate at which Porsche parts prices continues to increase (it will),
the "bottom feeder" part of the market will completely disappear and a huge majority of these cars will be junked.
The remainder of the "higher end/already restored" vehicles will skyrocket in price.

Because I've done nothing but work on Porsches, for over 50 years, I've watched this occur on virtually every single model.
I watched dozens of 356's go to Aase Bros., because people could not relate to paying $3000 to rebuild a 356 engine, in the 1970's.

I've got a backlog of people waiting for me to restore/restorod their 928's.
And a full restoration/restorod (every single part removed and "massaged" (in some manner): Paint, interior, suspension, brakes, electrical, engine, transmission, axles, wheel bearings, etc. etc. costs a bunch of money.
(Probably way more than the car could be sold for, unless someone is looking for a "Greg Brown" restoration/restorod.)
And yet, I think that these people are some of the smartest people in this niche.

Get it done while there are still most of the pieces available, by someone with the skill to make it as perfect as it was (or even better), when it left the factory.
Enjoy it, for the next 40 years.

We are to the point where we can deliver a 98 point concours car.....time and time again.
Or we can build the same "98 point" car which will corner twice as good as it did originally, stop twice as good, and has almost twice the torque and horsepower.
And be virtually bulletproof.

Sadly, Porsche never built another "modern" 928.
But we certain did (and do.)

Speedtoys

mj1pate

It’ll happen. Even for some of our cars. But those cars Greg refers to will cost much of their value in restoration. That’s pretty typical. Ask a Plymouth Superbird what their ridiculously priced, fully restored example cost to bring it to that state. And Superbirds weren’t popular in their time.

GregBBRD

"Restoration" of a car, like "rebuilding" an engine or transmission has a huge disparity from both shop to shop and from person to person.

No one, who I am aware of (or have seen examples of), "rebuilds" engines/transmissions like we do. Our expectation is that one of our rebuilds will perform and last as long as the original, perhaps longer, due to the internal changes we make.

We have the same goal in a restoration. Make the car as fresh looking, long lasting, and as reliable as the original. In current concours judging, that's about a 98 point 928. (Which is probably a 96 point 356, which have become "over" restored.)
I once asked John Wilhoit (of 356 fame) the difference between a 96 point 356 and a 98 point 356 (this was probably 10 years ago.) His answer was fairly simple and right to the point: "About $200,000 more."

Crazy money, right?
However, his cars sell for that kind of money, in the rare instances they come up for sale.
Therefore, it's only crazy if you pay $500,000 for a 356 restoration and can only sell it for $50,000.

Fortunately, our cars...stock routine work, restorods, full restorations, bring huge dollars, when they come to market (rarely, also.)
.
We are just finishing a restoration on a 1988 928....a car that was an absolutely awful starting point. ($500 car to Mark Anderson.)
We are updating our Website (finally) and intend to fully detail what we consider a full restoration to consist of.

PorKen

Porsche, so dumb, or... once again an over-hyped mechanic wrongly attributed something to something, thought they were a genius, and now has to force everyone who still listens to them to go along with their half-baked theory

Conveniently gaslighting the fact that all automatics from '83 up until early '87 had first gear start, not to mention a bazillion Mercedes.

Once more, from the Porsche 928S4 '88 Service Bulletin:

Advantages of Changed Shift Program
- Less tendency to creep, since the car stops in 2nd gear (e.g. at traffic lights) .
- Soft, comfortable moving-off is possible.
- Lower fuel consumption in city driving.
- No 2nd - 1st gear downshift jolt while rolling to a stop.
- Still possibility of moving off in 1st gear.

The changed moving-off program was introduced gradually in Spring of 1987.

hacker-pschorr

I know my friends who are Mercedes guru's I send these threads to are laughing their asses off. The big thing now is dropping in a modern 5 liter Benz engine (what I'll probably do to my 380SEC).

Correlation does not imply causation.

We all know your business is repairing 928's.
It's also clear to anyone wo doesn't regularly kiss your ring, that your side job, or hobby, is dismissing anything that could be a performance upgrade to a 928 that you are not directly involved with. I carefully stay away from the "p" word since chatting with your legal team isn't high on my agenda these days.

You love to pull out "Porsche isn't stupid....." when justifying these arguments. But then in other threads you point out all the stupid stuff Porsche did that you have to fix or improve upon.

Which is it?

Bingo..... Same with our 98 Boxster. Starting in 1st gear from anything other than a dead stop is a bit jerky.

grepin

So taking the 1st gear argument off the table. Is there any issue with using the kick down switch to bump back a gear instead of mashing the foot to the floor and pushing the kick down switch. It seems very harsh. As a matter of fact what gear is it going to in this case. My car will drop back gently with normal acceleration but if hitting the kick down it seems like a lower gear again. I feel that mashing the kick down as Porsche designed is putting a lot of load on the gear box as well. But it is fun. Legit question and no arguments here. I dont have any kick down switches installed.

Speedtoys

I see the kick down switch as more of a passing gear change...my Golf has the same thing..or certainly FEELS exactly like the 928 in that last 1/4" of pedal travel, and reaction. I dont need 1st to game anyone at a light if I ned a quick turn ahead..even with 2.73's its not a quick car..

GregBBRD

If you start from a stop in 2nd and mash the throttle down to the kickdown switch, the transmission downshifts into 1st.
There is a delay and some jerking. B1 brake band needs to release and B2 brake band needs to engage. That takes time, yet the engine is at full throttle and moving higher into the rpm range, while that occurs.
As the transmissions age, both of these brake bands wear, the drums get hot spots and leakage past an bunch of valves, pistons, piston rings, and seals increases, slowing the exchange down.
However, when properly adjusted and with parts in relatively good condition, this is not as violent as you are describing.
(I don't believe that one of the transmission design criteria for Porsche was "And we need everything to have zero deterioration, for 40 years.")

As I do frequently say, Porsche isn't stupid.....and they do a lot of testing to find weaknesses. (I've never said that they were "perfect".)
With the S4 models, they put a switch on the side of the transmission to remove ignition timing when the torque in 2nd gear exceeds a certain level..
This is there for the sole reason to keep 2nd gear band/drum from excessive wear/heat.

Heck, if you feel the need to do 1st gear starts, might as well conclude that Porsche didn't know what they were doing and disconnect that, also!

GregBBRD

Porken and Hacker:

You can laugh and belittle me as much as you want, with your vast experience in rebuilding 4 speed automatic transmissions. (Have either one of you actually ever taken one apart and studied it?)
I never expect anything else, from you two.....it's a continuous, never ending, thing.

I simply am reporting, to the other people on Rennlist, what I see and what I have to buy as replacement parts for vehicles that are subjected to continuous 1st gear starts.
Those people are free to do as they please, with that information.

Very simple stuff, me providing data from a vast reservoir of experience.
Which makes your continual personal attacks not only mysterious, but malicious in nature.

Darklands

Mercedes Benz was with the W126 V8 from 1980 - 1991 the whole time behind the power of the 928 range, so for me I can follow Greg's argumentation.

For the W140 they need stronger boxes, the car was a truck.

Mercedes-Benz W126 - Wikipedia