TimCo

I'm trying to get an 83 going. I've never heard it run although I'm told it did ... when parked.
I dropped and cleaned the fuel tank, cleaned out the fuel lines, fuel rails, etc; replaced the fuel pump, fuel filter and battery, cleaned the grounds ... removed the plugs - cleaned and gapped them ... and today ... cranked it over for the first time with an expection that it might start.

It cranked but would not start. So I broke a fuel line connection and released air out of the line. I cranked it a few more times and cracked the return line connection and had some leakage. So I think I'm getting gas through the system; I unsure of the pressure but there is fresh gas in it.

I cranked again and it came to life ... almost ... it went putt putt and then nothing. It was pretty consistant after that. I cranked it and it went putt putt as if it could start but then nothing.

I replaced the cap and rotor ... because there was some wear on them .. but that didn't make a difference. I put my finger on the XVI relay and it clicked when the key was turned to the "on" position. It clicked again but since I wasn't turning the key myself, I'm not sure if it clicked after the starter was disengaged or if it clicked on its own and caused the no start.

Can I replace the XVI relay with a jumper wire between pins 30 and 87 to make sure the circuit stays energized?

One thing I haven't mentioned is that the "airbox and airfilter" are off the car because I anticipated perhaps having to remove the plugs again or maybe the fuel rail and injectors.

Will the car run without the airbox.

The air sensor is on the engine, I didn't think it would be a problem; maybe it is. I thought it would run ... badly ... but it would run without the airbox.

I was going to check the fuel pressure tomorrow; maybe jumper the relay; check the electrics for the cold start valve. Are there any other electrical safety switches or systems that may cause this no start.

Thanks much.

John Struthers

Check the Nichols site for info.

ViribusUnits

US or Euro? S or non S?

It shoulds like a US to me, since it seems like you have EFI.

How are you mounting the AFM on the engine, w/o the air box?!?!?!?!

There is pretty much no way to get a good seal between the AFM and the TB, w/o haveing the air box bolted to it, and the air box bolted in place. Bad seal = no start condition. IS the AFM connected, pluged in and what not? No afm = no start. Check that the Temp II sesnor is also pluged in and ohms out about right. Bad or unpluged sensor = no start.

There are two relays you need to check. The AFC relay, and the Fuel Pump relay. They are numbers XVI, and XVII, respectivaly. The fuel pump relay is a specail unit, but you can put a jumper wire between terminal 30 and 87 as a temp. measure. You can do the same for the AFC relay. (the AFC relay is also known as the "fuel injection relay".)

TimCo

Thanks for the reference to Nichols. There is some very good dialog on troubleshooting. I have to assimilate it before I can move forward but it gave me some ideas on what to do.

But, I have to admit ... the second reply stopped me dead in my tracks. I'm not entirely sure what it is. I assumed it was a US 928S. It was sold in NJ in 1983. The Red Warranty and Maintenence Book that came with the car says it is a 1983 928 S. The vin number is WPOJB0928DS ... But I can't find the engine number; not sure where to look for that.

As far as the airbox. There is nothing mounted on the airbox. The airbox is mounted with 4 bolts to the air intake on the back of the motor (with the flap - approx 2" x 2.5") and has two larger bolts on the far left and far right. The airfilter sits in the airbox. The top of the airbox is secured with large rubber bands ... and that is it. There are no electronics/connections to the box. A picture is on page 24-9 of the manual.

AFM is a little cryptic. I'm not sure what you mean. I only have about 8 hours into this car; never having seen one up close and personal. I searched the CD for AFM and couldn't find a reference - I'm guessing "air flow module". There is a module in front of the "intake - flap" but it is on top of the motor, not near the airbox.

I jumpered the fuel pump and when it did not energize the pump ... I bought a new pump and replaced it yesterday. I thought that perhaps the Fuel injection relay wasn't working so I would jumper that to see if that made a difference.

I've heard that auto parts stores sell spray cans for cleaning electrical contacts and switches. I've never tried it but may get a can and clean the entire "fuse box".

Can you tell anything from the vin number?

Tim

ViribusUnits

All right.

Lets start the identification process.

0. Are you sure it's an 83?

1. Do you have a single distributer on the drivers side bank?

2. Do you have electronic fuel injectors and a fuel rail, or 8 indivdual non electrlinc ones? Yes for EFI, no for non EFI.

3. Do you have a "spider" intake? (almost certanly if it's an 83, but just to be sure.)

If the answer to all four questions is yes, you have a US car between 80-84. For our reasons, it doesn't really much matter which one.

AFM is the Air Flow Meter. It measures the volume of air that flows into the engine. It is NOT bolted to the engine. It is bolted to the air box with 4 bolts, on a flat flange. It sounds like when you pulled the air box off, you unbolted it from the AFM first. Give it a good yank, it's just stuck by an o-ring. It'll come off.

TimCo

1. I'm very sure its an 83. I'm reading the title and it says 1983 !
2. That's right, the distributor is in the front drivers side of the motor and really easy to get to.
3. Yes, the fuel line comes into the engine compartment on the pass side. It runs straight towards the center of the motor and makes a sharp turn forward towards the front center of the engine into the fuel dampner (I think they call it), fuel exits the fuel dampner towards both the left side and the right side of the car into the corresponding fuel rails ... to individual injectors each with a wire loom; at the rear of the fuel rail the fuel enters the left and/or right fuel pressure regulators, with a line extending to the cold start injector .... then to the fuel return line and back out to the top of the fuel tank.
3. Also correct, the intake is like a spider.
4. Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that the proper procedure is to remove the two large (14mm or so) bolts on the far left and far right sides of the lower airbox and the AFM will lift away from the engine while still attached to the lower airbox by the (4) 10mm bolts?
It looked to me as if the airbox was attached to the AFM which was attached (I said ... bolted) to the top of the motor (behind) the "throttle housing".
Are you saying you can just give the AFM a shake and lift it off?

BTW, thanks for letting me know about the compatibility of 80-84 US models. That solves a riddle. And to state the obvious (to everyone but me ...), this is not a CIS, not a K-Jet, not a LH-Jet but a L-Jetronic EFI system, 4.7l, 234hp.

So, was I wrong when I said that the car should run without the airbox? Is that the first thing to do? Or should I remove the AFM and inspect it?

Tim

Garth S

Tim,
Your car will run without the air box; however, as VU pointed out, the lower air box is attached to the AFM by 4 bolts.
If you wish to remove the AFM, if left bolted to the air box, it pulls out of an ~ 3" O-ring on the bottom: CAUTION - once you seperate the AFM, the control cable must be detached before lifting over ~6".
For the car to run, a good seal must be established with the AFM firmly inserted into the O-ring, and control cable on. A slight dusting of Talc may help the O-ring - done away from the opening.

ViribusUnits

Yep, no question, you've got an 83 US S. Put it in your sig line in your profile so we don't keep asking you.

You pretty much have got it correct. The AFM comes off with a little tug and a shake. Don't forget to pull the wireing connector off. It'll only give you a few inchs of play.

The car will run w/o the air box, provided you get the seal right. However, it would be very easy to unset the seal, and then you've got a massive false air leak. That could stop the car from starting.

Course that may not be the problem. It could easily be something else. Check the relays I mentioned before. Rember, the fuel pump relay SHOULD be a special unit.

Here is what makes it special. It has some microcircrty wizardy that make it turn on only when it gets the tach. signal from the ignition box. This is so that if your in a car crash or have an engine fire, the fuel pump stops when the engine stops, no matter the position of the key.

For testing purposes, you can use a jumper between the 30 and 87 contacts. For the AFC relay, I belive you need to make the jumper go to BOTH of the 87 contacts. One supplys power to the injectors, and the other goes to the brain if IIRC.

TimCo

Oh, this is a beautiful thing. Oh .... ! Thank you for the replies! I love this car. The more I learn about this car, the more I like it. That's good data on the AFC relay (I didn't pick that up). Side note, you can download the error codes from the brain can't you. I know if I search on 'brain", I won't find anything. What do they call it in the manual?

I haven't pulled out the ATM, so I think I can assume that it is still sealed via the (hopefully undisturbed) o-ring. Were you suggesting that I pull it off and inspect it to see what is up with it? (after verifying operation of the fuel pump and AFC relays? But I think it must be a different problem than the AFM. I tried to twist off the end of the fuel rail to verify the fuel pressure but it didn't budge in the CCW direction. I'm going to spray some penetrating fluid on it and try to crack it open.

That's a nice feature on the fuel pump relay and it's easy to bypass (jumper) for testing. Its probably a pricey little item but it is cheap insurance.

I hate to get down into the technical gutter and I don't want to insult anybody (lawn tractor people) ... that's a joke - I've very happy ! Lawn tractor people are nice people!

But ... when I bought my first sears craftsman lawn tractor, I couldn't get it started either (at first) because it was riddled with safety devices; it has a switch on the seat (so you have be sitting in the seat to start it); have to push down the clutch (so it doesn't jump when started) and you also have to have it in neutral (so there is no add'l drag on the belt that would slow the engine); and the cutting blade has to be disengaged (won't start with the blade engaged) ... all safety issues to prevent injury.

Are there any other signals that can create a no start condition. For example, can an automatic be started in Neutral as well as Park, does the brake have to be engaged; do you sit in the seat; anything weird like that ... and since the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline, if you are low on gas (I have only 2 gallons in it - and the back of the car is still raised up so I can troubleshoot the fuel pump/filter in case of a leak or something) is there a safety feature that prevents the fuel pump from running if you are out of gas/low on gas/really low on gas (my fuel light is on)? Or will the pump do its thing even if the car is empty until it burns itself out?

I saw the reference above ... that US models, years 80-84 are all the same (great information for me) but I am confused by what I saw in the CD. It looks like the 84 model (and maybe they were referring to 84 ROW ... ?) has an LH-Jetronic system (around page 24-119). The 84 uses the mass air sensor type approach (like my 85 corvette tpi - with a bosch MAF (mass airflow sensor). I've scrolled and read through section 24 (fuel injection section) and when you get to the 84 model, it starts looking different. Am I not reading that correctly? The reason I ask is that knowing whether it is 80-83 or 80-84 would make a difference when buying parts and finding troubleshooting procedures.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the guidance.
Tim

Garth S

You may just have solved your own problem - most cars do little more than " putt putt ....." when they're out of gas!!
With an estimated 2 gal. and the rear elevated, the suction line may only sniff fumes. You are correct to check for fuel pressure: if you do so at the fuel rail, use a second wrench to counterhold the rail - and there may be a ball check seal inside the cap you don't want to be chasing after down the street. Alternatively, the lines at the damper (at front) can be opened, or under the tank at the filter - or put $5 of gas in the tank ( well, it may take $50 today).
Rather than look for fancy safety interlocks when the tank says empty - a first move may be to assume the gauge is correct. - then on to the techno stuff .....

Randy V

Dude - what Garth said - put some gas in it fer god's sake!

Occam's razor - do a google.

donberry

I have recently had off my fuel lines and injectors, intake etc. When I 1st put it back together it also did not start, putted a little is it. Checking things out, I noticed that when I put the intake back on (the one attached to the 8 "legs") tho the front was in the gasket to the throttle body, the back had caught the rubber seal and was not actually "in" the seal.
I removed it and with some wiggling and a long screwdriver, got it back in the seal right and she cranks right up.
Just something to check that could be wrong if it seems to be getting gas and spark

TimCo

Wow ! I had this same problem with the lawnmower. Deja Vu. I'll get a jug of go-juice and see what happens! And speaking of deja vu, a little while ago, as I had my head stuck under the dashboard with my ohm meter ... I had the stangest feeling ... it was the same feeling I had many many years ago when I had my head stuck under the dash of my TVR ... I was having FUN !

TimCo

It sounded like a "definite possibility" but it turned out to be a "no-go". I put an additional 5 gallons into the car; lowered it; the engine cranks but there is a no start.

I cracked open the fuel rail and two drops came out after I took the cap completely off; I was expecting a shraeder valve under there so I could use a GM TPI compatible gas pressure gauge.

Anyway, I took a slightly different approach to the relay test which was a lot easier and more visual. Instead of jumpering pin30 to pin87 on the fuel pump relay and listening for a buzz, I replaced the relay and measured the voltage from T5 to GND; the T connector is almost directly underneath the relay and T5 is on the bottom right of the connector. You can watch voltage on the meter as you turn the key through the positions. Voltage is ZERO with the KEY ON (as you would expect) and a not-so-flattering 8.5V with the starter engaged. I didn't measure the voltage at the pump but it must be only 7.5 to 8V at the pump ... and if there is a bad ground no wonder it doesn't run. I'm using a brand new battery and brand new fuel pump.

So apparently, I'm losing at least 3.5 volts in the fuse and relay box connections due to corrosion. What is the operating spec on these bosch pumps; something like, 9 - 14V ?

ViribusUnits

Figure out a way to clean the contats. However, I'd still just check to see if the pump was running. Electronics can do very weird things because of dynamics. And rember, have fun, this is a hobie!

You can not read error codes off of your car's ECU(brain). You have an analog unit. There is no digital computer component as we know them. Instead there is a VERY old school analog computer. There is no way to "chip" it because there are no EPROMs with fuel curves. This is the early 80s black magic way to do fuel injection.

My car has nothing to prevent a start other than the key being off or something screwed up with the engine.

Good luck.