ViribusUnits

Was I so arrogent in saying that the 928's motor was not a BWM project?

Clearly, all of the 928 motors are decendents of the 78 928. There are no tri star symboles on the engine as best as I can tell. I do not own one, but I have a neibor that does, well it's a 79, but the 78-79 motors are suppost to be the same by all accounts.

This combined with the claims by Porsche that this was their first all Porsche, clean sheet car leads me to belive the origional engine was not a B-M project, unlike the 924, which was by all accounts a VW project done by Porsche and then bought back from VW.

Is that so arrogent?

Clearly there is Bosch all of the car. However, I found the lack of other mannufactors parts indicitive that the 928 was not a M-B project, expecaly when it was claimed by Porsche as their first clean sheet design. Which basicly contradicts your statement that it was a M-B design.

blau928

Hey ViribusUnits,

As it is DRAMATICALLY EVIDENT that you can neither read nor spell properly, you should return to an environment which will permit you to acquire such skill before participating in any further debat the enhances your lack of the aforementioned subject, or any other for that matter.

I DID NOT SAY THAT THE 928 WAS A DAIMLER BENZ PROJECT, nor a VW, nor any other carmaker's project. I just pointed out that there are many parts that are shared, and there are meny design elements that are the same in Daimler Benz, and Porsche products, having owned products from both manufacturers. Go back and CAREFULLY READ THE ENTIRE POST...!

Please do not attempt to elaborate on your ignorance, poor reading ability, poor comprenhension, or poor spelling skills. It degrades the entire forum. Many of us are significantly capable in doing the things that you are unable to do, have more experience, have seen more, and have other versions of the model from Porsche that you might not have had a chance to own.


GIVE IT A REST ALREADY. YOU ARE MAKING A BIGGER FOOL OF YOURSELF THAN BUSH, and we know that not everyone from TEXAS is like him.

hacker-pschorr

Mr Bailey, not trying to be an *** here, but if we are going to criticize someone's facts/opinions about the Porsche/MB/VW/Audi history, we should keep our facts straight:

It was from the Rabbit. The beetle uses torsion bars front end. The Rabbit/924 use McPherson strut set up. Totally different.

The brake drums on the 924/bug were the same except the bolt pattern for the wheels is different. The 924 rear suspension trailing arm is as used on a VW bug. The 411 is not even close. They used a coil spring set up. The Bug/924 use torsion bar.[/B][/QUOTE]






It's fun being a Mercedes junkie in a Porsche world:
You all seam to have forgotten about the Mercedes Gullwing, Fuel Injection designed by BOSCH, here is a quote from Mercedes - Portrait of A Legend:

"When the production model appeared in 1954, it featured the world's first four-stroke gasoline engine with direct mechanical fuel injection."

and from a BOSCH book I have lying around, and from this article:
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/010002.html

"In 1937, Bosch starting providing series-produced gasoline injection systems—for aircraft engines.

It wasn't until 1952 that gasoline direct injection systems made it into cars: for a two-stroke, 600-cc engine produced for a vehicle built by Gutbrod—a company that no longer exists."


I'm not claiming to say who's first, just throwing fuel on the fire.

2V4V

H-P,

I too was a Benz guy long before the Porsche thing.(Still am to an extent.) The above is 100% correct in the context of MECHANICAL fuel injection - I believe though, we were talking about ELECTRONIC fuel injection.

One of the first production uses of Mechanical FI was around the turn of the century - the one before the last one. A company called Deutz built about 300 stationary engine with this feature, but abandoned the idea until manufacturing tech caught up a bit. Robert Bosch began experimenting with FI ~1912.

In 1927 Bosch buys the ACRO company, which gives him rights to Fritz Lang's patents for high-pressure FI equipment. Soon, Bosch is selling diesel FI systems, that remained basically unchanged until very recently.

In the 1930's, they start adapting direct injection (mechanical) to gasoline engines. Hundreds of little companies exist using 2-stroke powerplants in their cars. They go for the direct injection to try to gain eff.

This gets us to the 300SL and all those fighter planes. Direct mechanical injection, but no electronics involved.

Electronic Injection does not come Bosch's way until they get the rights from Bendix.

Interestingly enough, the use of electrical solenoid valves to meter fuel output was demonstrated in 1933 by an engineer from Atlas Imperial Diesel Engine Company. Showed it on a marine diesel at a NYC boat show. In 1934 somebody put a smaller version of that plant in a truck and drove (successfully) from LA to NY and back. Good thing we didn't waste any R&D time or money on THAT silly idea....

Much like Tesla demonstrating radio controlled "torpedos" at the 1909(?) World's Fair, the people "in charge" generally wouldn't know a good idea if it bit them on the ***. Of course, Tesla invented radio, NOT that nasty little thief bastard Marconi. (finally proved in US courts of law. as usual, too late for the aggrieved party...)

As to the veracity of what VW parts got used on what VW/Porsche cars, not my field.

Greg

hacker-pschorr

Mechanical, Electrical, I saw a FI discussion and had to find a way to squeeze in Mercedes!


The VW/Audi/Porsche stats come from a very reliable source.

ViribusUnits

Blau, QUIT being insulting. It is not nice. It is not becomeing. I'll learn to spell, you lean to be nice. Agreed?

"Have any of you noticed how many MBZ connectors and hardware are on the 928. Look very closely, they even have the three pointed star."

You've found one, and it's only on the S4 or later cars. One is not "many MBZ connectors". There are no such connectors on the L-jet 928's, and none on the K-jet 928's, so I'm curious how the 928 has so many MBZ connectors? Not to mention the one BMZ bit might have been a Bosch item.

"In addition, the 32v Porsche 928 engine is very similar in design and finish to the 32v 5Liter MBZ Engine..... Even down to the materials...."

The MBZ V8 is somewhat similer, but I can't seem to find anything that indicates it was interchangeable with the 928's engine to any degree. FBC and SBC are similer motors, both in design, materials, and finish, but there is no question as to their origion. I'd put it in a case of great minds think alike.

Bernie

This was actually a very interesting topic ------------ for awhile!!

Thanx for ruining what was otherwise an informative thread!!

hacker-pschorr

Bernie,
What else did you expect to happen around here?

Jim bailey - 928 International

My wife thinks most cars look all alike , I think roses do .........she says Oh NO that rose is Mr Lincoln , Evelyn , Swan , Chrysler Imperial , etc....... Eskimos I believe have like 20 different words for snow . A 90 degree V-8 looks like a 90 degree V-8 . Most all cars have 4 wheels therefore are the same ?? For the record I was wrong , the 924 had superbeetle front struts/shocks and rabbit steel a arms ..the rear was superbeetle derived ..been a while since I looked at any of that stuff ; still means the 924 was VW/Audi nose to tail . Porsche actually paid to buy back the project and tooling when the new CEO of VW killed the car and the old NSU factory assembled them . The cash flow may have "saved " Porsche ; for that we can be grateful .

TeufelHei

Mercedes Schmercedes, my car says Porsche on the outside. A car (especially a Porsche) is more than the sum of it's parts, so what does it matter at all what the "brand" is so long as it is manufactured to specification by a competent producer? Not a bit.

Let any Mercedes afficionado turn up his nose and try to tell me who's car came first. I'm not snobbish enough to tell him how wrong he is, but I am more than willing to show him who is first now. Find me any 1985 Mecedes production car, and I'm pretty sure it won't hang too long.

As for the comparrison, lets get a little closer to home. Anyone know the difference between a Ford and Chevrolet 5.7L or 5.0L engine? Survey says...just about every thing that matters. Sure they're both metal and they are internal combustion four stroke engines, it more or less ends there.

If the 924 had VW parts in it, good to go. If the 928 has got Mercedes parts in it, even better. I draw the line at transnational/intercontinental swapping, unless of course there are former colonial ties (read: Ford-Jaguar).

I suggest a boost in iron intake as a remedy to this cannibalism. Eat three Mustangs and you'll all feel better in the morning, avoid rice.

Have a nice day!

Dennis Wilson

Why is it that every time I see a thread on the origins of the 924/944 it turns into a slamming contest? Could it be that there is so much misinformation out there that we can't find out the truth for ourselves? Thought the folks on the 928 list were a notch above believing everything they see on the internet. Recommend that anyone check out reliable sources like Up Fixin V, published by the PCA, or the information at official websites or even the preface in the Haynes manuals before perpetuating this misinformation. BTW there are at least two articles in the above referenced (Up Fixin V) about the origin of the 928 and MB is only mentioned once in regard to the AT.

Dennis

Giovanni

Check this limited production VW SP-2. Luckily I own 3 of these back home (1 mint, 2 for parts). To my knowledge there's only 3 in the States. They resemble somewhat to the 928s.

TeufelHei

Actually I remember an article comparing the AMC Pacer and the 928..now that's funny.

GT Jackson

Bernie . . . Like you said, it was an interesting discussion. So inspired I pulled out my copy of “Excellence Was Expected” and read up a bit. Here are a few juicy tidbits to add to the thread.

“Those reports outlined the need for a less costly Porsche that would perform better in a market that had already been probed by the 914.” – Ludwigsburg sales dept.

“If the mid-engine design of the 914 was as good as the VG’s ads were proclaiming, why was the 911 not designed the same way?”

“VG planners wanted the new car to have a general technical similarity and a clear family resemblance, inside and out, to the more expensive pure Porsche sports car – at the end of 1971 – was being considered as the replacement for the 911.”

“In spite of the requirements to draw from the VW parts list for the 924s suspension components, the Weissach engineers were able to create a running gear that performed without visible compromise.”

I agree, I loved that 924 compared to anything else I had driven before, spending many a joyfull day tossing that little car around the twisties in Vermont and scaring the Sh*t out of myself at times. My only regret is that it shed parts like a porcupine shed quills. On the other hand most were VW parts!

And as to the 928 V8 . . . “It was not Porsche’s way to sever links needlessly with its engineering past; the 928 retained such alink with the last 911 engines. Its bore diameter, 95mm, was the same as that of 3.0 liter six used in the Carrera RS 3.0 and the Turbo Carrera. This allowed experience gathered with these engines to carrier directly over to the new eight.” My emphasis added.

Continued reading for many pages describes the complete design by Porsche engineers of the V8 used in the 928. “The block was the most daring and ambitious element. The Porsche engineers eschewed using . . .” “Porsche was able to continue its record of never having built an engine for its cars that had individual main-bearing caps.” “For the first time in one of its own engines, Porsche adopted a cogged rubber belt to drive the camshafts.”

I find no evidence of MB anywhere in the design, development and built of the 928 V8.

“In its dry weight the 928 eight exceeded by only twelve pounds the heft of another 4.5 liter engine Porsche had built eight years earlier, the original twelve for the 917.”

JKelly

Giovanni,

After seeing the pic of your VW SP-2, I did a Yahoo search and looked at others also. I have read the usual history of the 928 and its development, but the SP-2 appears to me to be the inspiration for the 928 design. No question in my mind. I feel like I'm looking at an old 928, except for it was about 4-8 years before the "real" 928. Who knows, maybe the flip up light idea for the 928 was inspired by the Opel GT (1968-1973), which also has that VW "bug" bubble look.