Bulvot

I'm convinced, thanks to the many articles and quotes contributed to this forum by others, that the 928 was never intended to be a replacement for the 911. Going hand in hand with that, I'm convinced that the story about the timeline of the 911 being extended onto the wall was not about the 928.

However, I lack a collection of proof for that stance. Would others who have that evidence be willing to post it in this thread as a consolidated resource for this specific topic? Selfishly, it would then let me send a link to this thread to others who have been fed, and believe, these stories. Whom I regularly run into.

Conversely, if I'm wrong, I'm open to evidence supporting the belief that the 928 was supposed to replace the 911.

Thank you!

icsamerica

This drives me crazy... Every time I hear someone repeat the same old refrain like a parrot who can read the internet. All the while seemingly unaware of the history and what actually occurred on the ground at the time.


1. There was never a racing program for the 928 like there was for the 911.
2. All the early marketing materials, clearly suggest and stated it was a "Luxury Car" (photo 1)
3. The early cars were photographed with executives, not race program drivers (photo 2)
4. Automatic Transmission was available from the start. 911 didn't get tiptronic until 89
5. Showroom advertisements focused on Glamor (Photo 3), not racing livery shots.
6. Promotion videos clearly focus on utility and luxury features that would have been designed in from the beginning.
7. In the context of the time, personal luxury coupes ( GT's) were all the rage, Also just introduced... BMW 633ci, Jaguar XJS, Ferrari 400i and none of these would have been competition for the 911 either.
8. No engine or suspension parts were derived from Porsche's race program as they were for the 911.
9. There was no sport handling package until the 928 GT (11 years after introduction)
10. There was factory racing development on the 924 in late 1977, which would have most likely been developed into the actual replacement for the 911.
11. Mechanicals seem to be developed for Luxury not performance. One look at the bottom end, specifically the heavy rods and how the Cranshaft was drilled clearly indicates there was little consideration for any racing development for the 928, also the windage and PCV problems clearly indicate high performance development was not a priority, Luxury was.
12. Had racing development been a priority, like it was with the 911, the crankshaft would have been flat plane like a Ferrari.
13. Porsche Werks DID NOT race a 911 at LaMans for 1980, They did race a 924GT which clearly indicated the replacement for the 911 was the 924 and not the 928.








showroom poster


924 racing with 917's at LeMans, Notably absent, the 911 and 928


( )
heavy focus on utility and comfort.

8cyl

Everyone here knows this isn't entirely true, but the rest of the automotive public will continue to be told this. The line is so synonymous with the 928 it really is irritating, but for decades this was the story told and I'm afraid it will continue to be so. It's deeply ingrained. Porsche today will regurgitate this themselves, as I have no doubt that the intricacies of the 928's long and storied development are lost to time. Unless someone joins a forum like this one, or reads one of the books, they won't know any better.

Jerry Feather

I don't think it was a myth at all! How else do you explain the 928?

Bulvot

@icsamerica , great points, logic and evidence. Thank you. That reminded me that I have a couple of scanned articles and ads that confirm what you said. That the 928 was designed to be a luxury GT car to compete with other GT cars.

Instigator56

Good point! If they didn't plan for it to replace the 911, then why DID they make this car from scratch? And why did the keep making it for 18 YEARS when, clearly, the majority of Porsche's customer thought it was heresy and an abomination?

So, they make it for the GT market, but then don't make a replacement for it after they discontinue it in '95? Did they deem that market segment as unprofitable?

Speedtoys

I think 000 magazine, issue 01 (the first one) covers a LOT of this.

Bulvot

More. From the dealer pre-release book explaining to Porsche salesmen what the 928 is and how to sell it to prospective customers. It specifically states that the 928 is an alternative to the 911, aimed at people who want a luxury saloon but with more performance:

Bulvot

My hope is that we can collect some of the evidence in this thread so that we can just send someone a link to it.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please post that evidence.

hwyengr

I think there’s a strong argument to be made that the 911 replaced the 928 as a luxury GT (certain limited edition trims excluded) but with a rear engine, and the Cayman/Boxster replaced the 911 as a pure sports car

icsamerica

Amazing how honest marketing material were back then. Very direct and to the point. It's clear what Porsche intentions were. Anup market luxury sports car in the vane of competitors like the Jag XJS, BMW 6 series Coupe and the Mercedes SL. I think the comparison to Jaguar and the XJS is the clearest. The Mercedes SL was selling well by the mid 70's and the 911 and -E-type were agricultural by comparison. Both marques had nothing in the higher end segment. Jag just wrapped up the E-type in 1975 and released the Jaguar XJS in 1976 with is smooth and powerful V12. The E-type had rough road manners and just like the 911 lots of Success on the race track. The up-market XJS set out to solve those problem with a smoother ride and more predicable handling for the road. It's GT style and mechanicals (v12) were obviously inspired by the Lamborghini GT350. Porsche seems to have taken it's up-market cues from the Ferrari Daytona. First released as a GT about a decade prior with it's wedge shape and front engine / rear trans-axle arrangement. One key differance tells the story, Jag DID race prep the XJS and had some decent success at the time. In the late 70's Porsche DID not support the 928 for racing. So it's easy to see the XJS was the replacement for the E-type and the 928 was not the replacement for the 911.

By-Tor

The journalists also keep telling that "928 angered the traditional Porsche purists".

Yeah what... 40 years ago?

Everyone who I know that owns a 911 (including me) absolutely loves the 928 and respects it tremendously. Whenever there's a 928 in Porsche gatherings it gets much more attention than any 911. GT & GTS is super respected among all Porsche fans.

It was the Porsche flagship model and was able to outrun every single 911.

924 and Boxter... well that's a different story.

The only ones who dislike the car seem to be the car "journalists".

https://www.hotcars.com/sports-cars-...AOinnsjGhQa0kU

Darklands

The fear was the new polution rules for engines will make the air cooled obsolete. But as we all know, the 993 was the last of the aircooled, 25 years later.

GT6ixer

I've been waving this flag for years.

Here. And here. And here.

What follows, I wrote this before, but it bears repeating now that we have a long overdue thread dedicated to the topic:

I fully reject the notion that 928 was conceived entirely and completely as the 911's replacement. It wasn't. No Porsches were "designed" to replace the 911, however prior to Peter Schutz, Porsche did have a plan to rebuild their lineup with the transaxle cars and did foresee a future without the 911.

I recently came across an old interview in Panorama with Ernst Furhmann (Peter Schutz's predecessor) conducted a few months before he stepped down. In that interview he did concede that the 911 would someday not be produced and that it's spot in the Porsche lineup would be filled by an "upcoming" model. At the time of that interview the 928 had been in production for a few years. He makes some more mention to this upcoming model and it is obvious that he is speaking about the 944. Now most would agree that the 944 is no equivalent to the 911 and I would concur, however that wasn't what Porsche was trying to do. What they envisioned was a lineup of cars that spanned a large price range in order to draw in as many customers as possible. The 928 was much more expensive than the 911 (save for the 930), and the 924 much cheaper. They needed a car to fit into the price range that the 911 occupied and that is what Ernst Furhmann at least foresaw with the 944.

GT6ixer

A couple of years ago I reached out to the Porsche Public Relations Historical Archive to try to find out more information on the genesis of the 928. Below are the transcripts from those emails.

************************************************************************ *****************

Hello Ms. Pelters,

I recently sent the below email to Mr. Dieter Landenberger. I immediately received an automatic reply that said, "Thank you very much for your message. For inquiries to the Porsche AG archive, please contact Mrs. Sarah Pelters". This is why I am now emailing you. Perhaps you could help answer the question I posed to Mr. Landenberger regarding the genesis of the 928?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Nathan L.

Guten Tag Herr Landenberger,


I hope this email finds you well. My name is Nathan L and I am an avid Porsche 928 enthusiast from Seattle, Washington. For decades I admired the 928 and last year I finally purchased my first example. A 1984 928S in Zinnmettalic over black leather. Great car and amazing to drive!

I've spent a lot of time researching it's history but there is a very important aspect of the history that is unclear to me and I believe not fully understood even by those who write about it, and that is simply, why did Porsche decide to create the 928? The prevailing view, which I am not convinced is the actual reason, is that the 928 was designed to replace the 911.

I just watched the documentary "911 Reloaded" in which you participated. In one scene you state that reason the G series 911 had such a long production run was because the 928 was slated to replace it. This agrees with the famous story of Peter Schutz extending the 911 lifetime on the chart in Helmuth Bott's office along the wall and out of the door. Numerous automotive articles cite this event as evidence of the 928 being positoned by Porsche to be the successor to the 911. However this event happened in 1981. The 928, if I am not mistaken, began as a concept nearly 10 years earlier in 1972.

So this is why I am writing you. I figure as the Head of Historical Archive, you more than anyone would have access to the real reason the 928 was concieved. It is my contention that the 928 concept was not started in the early '70s in order to develop a car that would replace the 911 but rather to add diversity to the Porsche line up. I mean by that time the 911 was only 8 years old and in it's prime. I find it hard to fathom that Porsche would have been looking 10 years ahead and forseeing it's demise. I'm sure there must have been those at the company that felt the 911 could have been engineered to meet any potential safety and emissions concerns that may have been mandated by the end of the decade. And sure by the late '70s some executives at Porsche may have felt that the 928 could replace the 911 but that is very different than saying "the 928 was designed to replace the 911".

So that leaves me with my original question; why did Porsche design the 928? Was it really to replace the 911 or was it for other reasons? Any information that you could provide me would be extremely appreciated. These cars have for a long time been under appreciated and misunderstood. I have great appreciation for them and want to develop and equally great understanding.

Best regards,

Nathan

************************************************************************ ************

Jung, Frank (GOM1) <frank.jung@porsche.de>

to me

Jan 15, 2018, 8:47 AM
Dear Nathan,

thank very much for your email and your interest in the 928 Story.
Finally your inquiry ended up on my desk as I`m Dieter Landenbergers Successor here at the Porsche historical Achieves.
Dieter moved to Volkswagen, but we´re still in close contact.

We´ll check historical docs and send you our thoughts regarding the 928 topic.
We do have a scientific Assistant working on his thesis – looking closely at decisions of the members of the board in the 70ies.I´m sure he´ll find some of the answers to your questions.

We´ll keep you updated as soon as we found out anything (new).

With kind regards,

Frank Jung

Dr. Ing. h. c. F. Porsche AG
Public Relations
Manager Historical Archive
Porscheplatz 1
D - 70435 Stuttgart
Phone: +49 (0) 711 911 25985
E-Mail: frank.jung@porsche.de

Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Stuttgart
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB-Nr. 730623
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dr. Wolfgang Porsche
Vorstand: Oliver Blume, Vorsitzender
Lutz Meschke, stv. Vorsitzender
Andreas Haffner, Detlev von Platen, Albrecht Reimold, Uwe-Karsten Städter, Michael Steiner

************************************************************************ *************************
to Frank

Jan 15, 2018, 8:58 AM

Frank,

Thank you so much for the reply and congratulations on your new position at the archives.

I am very curious to hear back from you and your assistant about the history of what the 928's role in the Porsche lineup was initially intended to be. Especially in relationship to the 911. Very exciting.

Best regards,

Nathan L

************************************************************************ ******************
to Frank

Jun 5, 2018, 9:31 AM

Guten Tag Frank,

I hope this email finds you well. I am writing as a follow up on my inquiry on the genesis of the 928 and was wondering if you were able to find any information in the archives about the decisions of why Porsche decided to create it?

Best regards,

Nathan L

************************************************************************ *************

Benken, Alexander von den (GOM1) <alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de>

to me, Frank

Jun 6, 2018, 12:45 AM

Hello Nathan,we are sorry for the delay.

In 1977 the 928 was presented. Initially the 928 was purposed to be the successor of the 911 that was built since 1964. Right in the beginning of Fuhrmanns presidency he was faced with a global oil-crisis and exacerbating environmental policy – especially in the US.

Fuhrmann favoured the front-engine concept, because environmental policy (e.g. EPA) targeted mostly front-engine concepts (e.g. crash-structure, noise and exhaust-pollution). Additionally he thought – as an engineer – the 911 was coming to an end. He thought that the engineers had to invest so much more time and energy to catch up with new generation sports cars that would cost half the price.

In the presidency of Peter W. Schutz the 928 was not seen as a successor any more - instead Schutz needed the 928 as the top-end-product of his diversified full-product-line to appeal even high-class business clients. Schutz knew that the 911 was a cash-cow and the core-identity of the company, so he decided to reinvest in the development of the 911.

I hope I could help you!

Kind regards,

Alexander von den Benken

Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Communications

Porsche Museum and Historical Communication
Porscheplatz 1
70435 Stuttgart

Telefon: +49 (0)711 911 22634
Fax: +49 (0)711 911 26133
E-Mail: alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de


Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Stuttgart
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB-Nr. 730623
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dr. Wolfgang Porsche
Vorstand: Oliver Blume, Vorsitzender
Lutz Meschke, stv. Vorsitzender
Andreas Haffner, Detlev von Platen, Albrecht Reimold, Uwe-Karsten Städter, Michael Steiner

************************************************************************ ***

to[size=13px] [/size][size=13px]Alexander[/size]

Jun 23, 2018, 12:21 PM

Hello Alexander!

Thank you very much for the reply and no worries for the delay. Your response does concur with the popular narrative that the 928 was intended to succeed the 911. This does however beg the following questions if I may ask.

Why did Porsche executives at the time feel that replacing the 911, a light weight sports car, with the 928, a heavier GT car, was the correct business decision? I am sure they couldn't have thought that their loyal base of 911 customers would be happy with switching over to such a different platform? Was there at least some discussion of developing a front engined light weight sports car the was upmarket like the 911? Obviously the 924 was introduced in the late '70s, but that was an attempt to make an entry level Porsche, not a 911 substitute, correct?

So the crux of my follow-up question is why did they choose to try to succeed the 911 with a such a different type of car, a GT car, and not another sports car for which they already had a large customer base to draw from?

Best regards,

Nathan

************************************************************************ *******************

Benken, Alexander von den (GOM1) <alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de>

to me

Jun 28, 2018, 2:12 AM

Hello Nathan, in this decade large Gran Turismo cars were en vogue. Beside that producing costs were much lower. I am sorry that I cannot give you any further information, as we are not deep into research for that topic.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexander von den Benken

Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Öffentlichkeitsarbeit und Presse
Porsche Museum und historische Öffentlichkeitsarbeit

Historisches Archiv
Porscheplatz 1
70435 Stuttgart

Telefon: +49 (0)711 911 22634
Fax: +49 (0)711 911 26133
E-Mail: alexander_von_den.benken@porsche.de


Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Stuttgart
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB-Nr. 730623
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dr. Wolfgang Porsche
Vorstand: Oliver Blume, Vorsitzender
Lutz Meschke, stv. Vorsitzender
Andreas Haffner, Detlev von Platen, Albrecht Reimold, Uwe-Karsten Städter, Michael Steiner

************************************************************************ **************