When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Since it's obvious that Porken made his chips for the '85/'86 engine with the 3.8 bar regulator and low pressure '85/'86 dampers (which would cause pretty extreme variable pressure fluctuations, as Bosch and Porsche obviously found out), perhaps his changes in the LH chip "covered" up the lean and rich problems caused by these pressure fluctuations.
I'm wondering if perhaps I "shot myself" in the foot, by installing the correct matching dampers for the 3.8 bar regulator, when using his chips.
Without the nasty pressure fluctuations, caused by the mismatched regulator and dampers, his chips could have then been too rich or too lean in the areas he corrected for the low or high pressure waves.
Perhaps this is why I never saw the huge performance gains he claimed?
I was on a different path, with 60lb injectors causing my hammering issue...so its not AS bad perhaps..not so mis matched...
I am not, it was on a S/C application. I didnt really solve it,
One of the big boosted projects on here went a larger dual damper route to combat it.
Thanks. I’m running 60lb injectors on my SC setup. It’s taken a lot of Sharktuning to smooth it out as far as drivability. I will be installing a set of Hans’ injection rails that incorporate dual dampers per rail. I’m hopeful it will solve some of my issues.
Thanks. I’m running 60lb injectors on my SC setup. It’s taken a lot of Sharktuning to smooth it out as far as drivability. I will be installing a set of Hans’ injection rails that incorporate dual dampers per rail. I’m hopeful it will solve some of my issues.
I was on a different path, with 60lb injectors causing my hammering issue...so its not AS bad perhaps..not so mis matched...
I'm thinking that once you get to the point of needing 60lb. injectors, you probably should consider a sequential injection system...with dampers that work well with the regulator.
Thanks, I remember seeing that. I’m changing the FPR also. Sequential injection will be the next step.
With 60 pound injectors batch firing (4 at a time), you might be beyond the volume range of any smallish damper....you might want to look at an accumulator from a CIS application, to get enough volume to keep the rails from having pressure surges......
(I'm not being sarcastic, I'm completely serious.)
I'm not certain if Hans is using the injector rail design he designed for me, or a version of that, but I initially came up with the idea of using 4 dampers that threaded into the fuel rail, directly, after seeing the effects of the huge pressure waves in Rob Edward's 6.5 liter engine, with my prototype custom intake system.
Hans, who has an amazing grasp of what is available, from small manufacturers (I dream abut having the spare time he has), suggested using the Radium dampers. Simple pieces, but they are very "generic', in terms of fuel pressure and dampening. (One generic damper fits all.)
If he's still using the Radium dampers, you will want to monitor and adjust the damper spring pressure to better fit with the fuel pressure you are going to run.
Too little spring pressure, like when using the stock '85/'86 dampers on a 3.8 bar system, bottoms out the diaphragm and the pressure in the rail needs to drop considerably, before the damper can respond (below the stock fuel pressure of 2.5 bars.) Whether you want in or not, you've got a pressure wave, right out of the gate. The only choice is to try to tune around it.
Too much spring pressure, and the diaphragm doesn't travel far enough, which reduces the available volume that needs to compensate for the suddenly lower fuel pressure. Additionally the damper "dumps" its fuel, before the pressure in the rail drops very far. Then, when the pressure continues to drop, there's no reserve fuel/pressure to compensate. Another pressure wave.
Dampers and fuel pressure are a very carefully engineered dance.
While one can make small changes and "get away" with it (like a few pounds, with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator), much more than that is a complete non-starter. Going from a 2.5 bar regulator to a 3.8 bar regulator, without changing the dampers is a complete disaster....which is exactly why Bosch and Porsche made different dampers for these two completely different fuel system pressures.
You need to learn to walk (learn the basics of something), before you try to run (make huge changes.)
If you tell me the fuel pressure the engine is running at (vacuum to Kirbin regulator disconnected), I can send you a new design regulator, with the appropriate hoses.
I can also provide you with new dampers, calibrated for what fuel pressure you are running.
Car is ready for fuel pressure test (tomorrow - too many folks would not appreciate me firing it up tonight!). I disconnected vacuum from the adjustable Kirban fuel regulator, but since I don't like how it looks/don't trust it, I extended its open vacuum port and ran it down to below the motor before putting the MAF and intake box back on. No fuel drip or smell when I disconnected vacuum, but it hasn't had pressurized fuel on the fuel side in at least a week and I didn't want to chance any surprises.
Originally Posted by jcorenman
There are two versions of the Ford Motorsports 30# injectors that I know of: The M9593-B302 which has a reddish top and a fat metal lower section (like the stock injectors), and the -BB302 which is also reddish with a skinny all-plastic body. Both work, but have different opening times.
In either case, if you are running stock fuel pressure then set Sharktuner's injector-size setting to the nominal 30# setting. For some other pressure the flow increases with higher fuel pressure, as the square-root of the actual pressure divided by the stock pressure.
So what is "stock pressure"? This is an S3, but does it still have the S3 ECUs or has it been updated to S4 ECUs (and PEMs for Sharktuning)?
Stock pressure for S3 was 2.5 bar, but 3.8 or 4.0 bar is a better choice in general (given appropriate injectors and mapping). And 3.8 bar is also stock pressure for the S4 and LH2.3. So if you are tuning an S3 LH2.2 then increase your injector-size setting by sqrt(4.0/2.5) or 38#. For an S4/LH2.3 configuration just set it to 30#.
The other setting that is important at lighter loads (shorter injector pulse-width) is Sharktuner's opening-time setting (dead-time, latency). For the B302 use 0.71ms, for the BB302 use 1.20ms. It's not quite that simple-- injectors don't open instantly with a constant flow-- but our GT has the BB302 injectors and I've verified that.
Jim, my 86.5 stroker retains its S3 computers and I have the upgraded Sharktuner 1 to Sharktune it.
Here is the best picture I could get of one of the fuel injectors. I found paperwork on them, but the part # (EN4530) gave no hits on the internet, so it was probably a vendor specific number (Blue Oval Industries in Elkton, VA - also searched their online store but have not called them). They were purchased in October 2008 and cost essentially $210 for a set of eight. They were likely what Greg recommended to the PO back then.
Bosch# 0-280-150-945 sold by Ford Motorsports as their part# M9593-B302. Nominal 30# flow rate, 0.71ms latency (at 55 psi / 3.8 bar).
When you get to Sharktuner, select 30# injectors and set opening-time to 0.7 ms. If your fuel pressure turns out to be much different than 55 psi then you can make the flow-rate adjustment but I would get a proper regulator and dampers in there before going past the "omg-it-runs" stage.
Excellent - thank you, gentlemen. Glad that piece of the puzzle is solved and I can use the appropriate values for Sharktuning!
Agree on jumping the fuel relay first FJ. Thank you for that reminder - I did wiggle a few things around and I know that is good practice. Plus I have never done it, so its time I learn that basic skill. I ordered the parts and will put together a proper switched & long jumper that I can then keep in the car.
Greg, I still owe you the fuel pressure measurement and I will get them - I'm just proceeding with caution. I did go ahead and ask Mary for a quote on the 3.8 and 4.0 bar regulators, dampers and hoses.
I was reading another thread about cleaning the engine bay where folks warned about certain cleaners being caustic. This car has been a garage kept Florida car all its life (101K miles), so I am rather surprised at all of the corrosion I am finding. I am thinking the wrong cleaner was used at some point by a PO (I am the third) and this is what the long term effect is. I can't think of another more likely explanation. How best to address this will be added to my expanding list of to-do's!
Last edited by hernanca; 04-14-2021 at 12:48 AM.
Reason: D-tallies.
With 60 pound injectors batch firing (4 at a time), you might be beyond the volume range of any smallish damper....you might want to look at an accumulator from a CIS application, to get enough volume to keep the rails from having pressure surges......
(I'm not being sarcastic, I'm completely serious.)
I'm not certain if Hans is using the injector rail design he designed for me, or a version of that, but I initially came up with the idea of using 4 dampers that threaded into the fuel rail, directly, after seeing the effects of the huge pressure waves in Rob Edward's 6.5 liter engine, with my prototype custom intake system.
Hans, who has an amazing grasp of what is available, from small manufacturers (I dream abut having the spare time he has), suggested using the Radium dampers. Simple pieces, but they are very "generic', in terms of fuel pressure and dampening. (One generic damper fits all.)
If he's still using the Radium dampers, you will want to monitor and adjust the damper spring pressure to better fit with the fuel pressure you are going to run.
Too little spring pressure, like when using the stock '85/'86 dampers on a 3.8 bar system, bottoms out the diaphragm and the pressure in the rail needs to drop considerably, before the damper can respond (below the stock fuel pressure of 2.5 bars.) Whether you want in or not, you've got a pressure wave, right out of the gate. The only choice is to try to tune around it.
Too much spring pressure, and the diaphragm doesn't travel far enough, which reduces the available volume that needs to compensate for the suddenly lower fuel pressure. Additionally the damper "dumps" its fuel, before the pressure in the rail drops very far. Then, when the pressure continues to drop, there's no reserve fuel/pressure to compensate. Another pressure wave.
Dampers and fuel pressure are a very carefully engineered dance.
While one can make small changes and "get away" with it (like a few pounds, with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator), much more than that is a complete non-starter. Going from a 2.5 bar regulator to a 3.8 bar regulator, without changing the dampers is a complete disaster....which is exactly why Bosch and Porsche made different dampers for these two completely different fuel system pressures.
You need to learn to walk (learn the basics of something), before you try to run (make huge changes.)
Thanks Greg, I appreciate the feedback. Hans isn't using the Radium dampers but his current rail design is shown in the Twin Screw thread. I'm replacing the FPR and dampers together and will be monitoring pressure and making logging runs. I'm not changing the system pressure. If the new setup doesn't help alleviate some of my current issues then I will move on to another modification. The CIS accumulator isn't a bad idea and I may need to look into that also. I also may move back to 42lb injectors if I need to. This is a work in progress that I'm doing in stages. Ultimately I will be going to a direct coil sequential injection setup.
Finally created my fuel relay jumper (details in this thread) and made sure I had no leaks before starting the motor to check for true fuel pressure (regulator disconnected from vacuum, as advised).
Surprisingly to me, but probably not others, the true fuel pressure on this 86.5 is about 2.5 bar (about 36psi). The 4.0 bar regulator and matching dampers are on order along with corresponding fuel lines. After installation will come plenty of Sharktuning, I'm sure!
^^^^^ Gauge will be removed soon for fire safety, not just because it is barely readable! Outer #'s are psi, inner #'s are bar units. Needle is sitting between 30 and 40 psi and between 2 and 3 bar.
04-10-2021 | 11:53 PM
