lost my freon?
03-31-2004 | 09:44 AM
#16
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Originally posted by Kaz
Where is anyone finding R12 these days and what is it going for?
Where is anyone finding R12 these days and what is it going for?
http://search.ebay.com/search/search...uery=R12+freon
03-31-2004 | 09:45 AM
#17
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From: PacNW
Also worth considering Autofrost
You can find it all day long on Ebay for decent prices......
03-31-2004 | 09:53 AM
#18
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Originally posted by touque
I've definitely thought of replacements and like the idea that I can do this myself instead of taking it into a shop...
don't we 'need' a license to buy this stuff?
I've definitely thought of replacements and like the idea that I can do this myself instead of taking it into a shop...
don't we 'need' a license to buy this stuff?
03-31-2004 | 11:41 AM
#20
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Originally posted by Dozman
Now with the amount of o-ring failures in large equipment (for buildings) that is used in a/c cooling the o-ring failures has been noticed by manufacturing engineers. The engineers have came up with in instances were warranty repairs that replacement o-rings that sometimes look more like seals than o-rings. They also reengineered some parts to accept seals completely, than to use orings.
Now with the amount of o-ring failures in large equipment (for buildings) that is used in a/c cooling the o-ring failures has been noticed by manufacturing engineers. The engineers have came up with in instances were warranty repairs that replacement o-rings that sometimes look more like seals than o-rings. They also reengineered some parts to accept seals completely, than to use orings.
03-31-2004 | 12:14 PM
#21
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update - I checked my coolant pressure this morning, and it was somewhere around 30. On the drive in, I had 65 degree air coming out of the vents (had a thermometer stuck in there).
anyways, it looks like I didn't lose ALL my R12 - now, I"m wondering if I could just 'top it off' with Freeze12 (or Autofrost or whatever) which would be cheap and easy, or if I should get R12 and go from there? If I still have a leak, then I don't want to put the escaping R12 in the air and don't mind if it's the CFC-free replacement stuff.
Can you mix R12 and the replacements?
anyways, it looks like I didn't lose ALL my R12 - now, I"m wondering if I could just 'top it off' with Freeze12 (or Autofrost or whatever) which would be cheap and easy, or if I should get R12 and go from there? If I still have a leak, then I don't want to put the escaping R12 in the air and don't mind if it's the CFC-free replacement stuff.
Can you mix R12 and the replacements?
03-31-2004 | 12:42 PM
#22
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Originally posted by touque
update - I checked my coolant pressure this morning, and it was somewhere around 30. On the drive in, I had 65 degree air coming out of the vents (had a thermometer stuck in there).
anyways, it looks like I didn't lose ALL my R12 - now, I"m wondering if I could just 'top it off' with Freeze12 (or Autofrost or whatever) which would be cheap and easy, or if I should get R12 and go from there? If I still have a leak, then I don't want to put the escaping R12 in the air and don't mind if it's the CFC-free replacement stuff.
Can you mix R12 and the replacements?
update - I checked my coolant pressure this morning, and it was somewhere around 30. On the drive in, I had 65 degree air coming out of the vents (had a thermometer stuck in there).
anyways, it looks like I didn't lose ALL my R12 - now, I"m wondering if I could just 'top it off' with Freeze12 (or Autofrost or whatever) which would be cheap and easy, or if I should get R12 and go from there? If I still have a leak, then I don't want to put the escaping R12 in the air and don't mind if it's the CFC-free replacement stuff.
Can you mix R12 and the replacements?
My advice before the summer hits is to get all the freon out, open up the system and replace all O-rings, drier, expansion valves (if necessary), and any other suspect parts such as hoses, pressure switches, etc. If you decide to go with R134......you should change the hoses anyway, pull the compressor and dump all the oil (rebuild if necessary), flush the system, and then refill with new oil, etc. If you decide to stay with R12, just vacuum it down a good long time and make sure it holds. Then refill with R12.
Sure sounds like you have a leak somewhere.......and it won't magically go away no matter what you do.......so fix that first, and then decide where to go from there.
03-31-2004 | 02:30 PM
#23
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Originally posted by Dozman
Old & New said
Just so we do not step on each others toes, and not create animosity towards each other or any other rennlister, please let me know where did you find this info that no commercial cooling machines use R12 or r134a?
This is where your absolutely wrong. Carrier, Trane, York as well as a few minor manufacturer's of cooling equipment were manufactured to use R12, and all of these machines have not been retrofitted to use R134a. Some of the machines as in centrifugal, recipricating, screw, scrolls are using R12 as the primary refrigerant they were designed to use today. Then as the Motreal Protocal came into existance the manufacture's of these machines engineered retro kits to retro fit the machines to use R134A. As a commerical/industrial refrigeration tech, union trained I do know this to be fact, as I have worked on machines that utilize R12 and R134a. I also have retrofitted York and carrier centrifugals from R12 to R134a.
Around the same time that the Montreal Protocal came into existance the Manufacture's started to manufacture their large tonnage machines (usually 50 tons and above) to run on R134a as well as many other refrigerants).
Thursday night I will post actual information from York, Carrier and few other manufacture's that "commercial equipment did and do operate on R12 and R134A"
Old & New said
Just so we do not step on each others toes, and not create animosity towards each other or any other rennlister, please let me know where did you find this info that no commercial cooling machines use R12 or r134a?
This is where your absolutely wrong. Carrier, Trane, York as well as a few minor manufacturer's of cooling equipment were manufactured to use R12, and all of these machines have not been retrofitted to use R134a. Some of the machines as in centrifugal, recipricating, screw, scrolls are using R12 as the primary refrigerant they were designed to use today. Then as the Motreal Protocal came into existance the manufacture's of these machines engineered retro kits to retro fit the machines to use R134A. As a commerical/industrial refrigeration tech, union trained I do know this to be fact, as I have worked on machines that utilize R12 and R134a. I also have retrofitted York and carrier centrifugals from R12 to R134a.
Around the same time that the Montreal Protocal came into existance the Manufacture's started to manufacture their large tonnage machines (usually 50 tons and above) to run on R134a as well as many other refrigerants).
Thursday night I will post actual information from York, Carrier and few other manufacture's that "commercial equipment did and do operate on R12 and R134A"
Could always be wrong though.
03-31-2004 | 11:02 PM
#24
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From: Southern New England
John,
I was under the impression that commercial units used R22 / R123 / water towers for larger applications. Reading up on the topic, I now realize that my info is somewhat dated, and that 134a is being utilized as a replacement refrigerant... I have worked with many of the engineering departments in hospitals between Boston and Hartford, and never saw any reference to the use of R12 in conjunction with their towers for area cooling.
That's where I got my info. But you're the pro; no toe stepping / animosity intended!
I was under the impression that commercial units used R22 / R123 / water towers for larger applications. Reading up on the topic, I now realize that my info is somewhat dated, and that 134a is being utilized as a replacement refrigerant... I have worked with many of the engineering departments in hospitals between Boston and Hartford, and never saw any reference to the use of R12 in conjunction with their towers for area cooling.
That's where I got my info. But you're the pro; no toe stepping / animosity intended!
03-31-2004 | 11:16 PM
#25
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From: South Texas
Well, here is an intersting phenominon. Only the o-rings on the low side of my a/c system seem to break down. Go figure.
I always figured that the PAG oil, higher pressures, higher temps. and slopy conversion on converted R-12 equipment were to blaim for the seal failures. I know in my car's case, most of the seals were still all right, but the few that were trash appered to be more vulcanied, than anything else. Something to do with age and heat, not really oil or pressure. Go figure.
The ester oil doesn't appere to be nearly as nasty as the PAG stuff. I under stood the PAG oil to be linked to the high failure rates in the OEM equipment. That and sloopy work on the redesign with the seals.
Anyways to each his own.
Oh, btw, R12 is apperently still being mannufactored in Mexico. I'm up for a trip...
I always figured that the PAG oil, higher pressures, higher temps. and slopy conversion on converted R-12 equipment were to blaim for the seal failures. I know in my car's case, most of the seals were still all right, but the few that were trash appered to be more vulcanied, than anything else. Something to do with age and heat, not really oil or pressure. Go figure.
The ester oil doesn't appere to be nearly as nasty as the PAG stuff. I under stood the PAG oil to be linked to the high failure rates in the OEM equipment. That and sloopy work on the redesign with the seals.
Anyways to each his own.
Oh, btw, R12 is apperently still being mannufactored in Mexico. I'm up for a trip...
04-01-2004 | 01:01 AM
#26
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Originally posted by ViribusUnits
Oh, btw, R12 is apperently still being mannufactored in Mexico. I'm up for a trip...
Oh, btw, R12 is apperently still being mannufactored in Mexico. I'm up for a trip...
In spite of what the EPA and your friendly federal governemenet would like us to think, the number of countries that signed the Montreal Protocol isn't that big. Freon R-12 is still manufactured by DuPont (and others I'm sure...) and sold around the world the way R-134a is sold here. 15 and 30# cylinders in Mexican parts warehouses sell for $4-6/lb. I guess Mexico forgot to sign. I suspect that the biggest pressure to use R-134a goes to countries that export cars to the U.S. So Korea sends us R-134a cars, but sends R-12 cars to the rest of Asia. We are making a big dent in the global warming/ ozone layer problem, but we aren't getting much help from others!
04-01-2004 | 09:27 AM
#28
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Originally posted by Dozman
Mike N
I do work on chillers for a living. I have worked on machines manufactured before I was born (some chillers dating pre1955), thats a life of over 45 years when the average life expectancy is 15-20 years for any chiller.
I am sorry some how you have been misinformed about what types of refrigerant chillers use. Just because a refrigerant is classified as a class 1 refrigerant has no barring on if it can be used in a chiller.
Class codes are made to classify the refrigerants into two categories based on their ODP (ozone depletion potential). Class 1 refrigerants have an ODP greater or equal to .2, while Class 11 refrigerants are known or may be reasonably anticipated to cause or contribute harmfull effects to the Ozone layer, which include ALL HCFC's. Now even HCFC's have been issued a Global Warming Potential (GWP)
Now as the Montreal Protocal (initial date of acknowledgement of existance Sept. 6 1987, a revision date of June 1990) and a few select other agreements (as in The Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990) have came into existance the manufactures of chillers are started to manufacture their chillers to operate within that scope of eliminating ozone depleting (ODP) refrigerants. Thus the manufacture's started to manufacture chillers to use class 11 refrigerants, and not class 1 as of November 15, 1993.
Now for machines that were manufactured prior to the Montreal Protocal, does this mean that all machines must be retrofitted to use class 11 refrigerants? No it does not. The machines manufactured prior to Nov. 15 1993 can not be ordered to be retrofitted to a class 11 refrigerant. That choice is left up to the owner of the chiller.
A few topics to read on that provide some very interesting points would be the Clean Air act of 1990,Title VI of Stratospheric Ozone Protection and section 608 National Recycling and Emission Reduction Program,and the Montreal Protocal.
FYI 1. Freon is a registered trade mark of Dupont Chemical Company.
2. CFC's ceased to be produced after 1995.
3.As it stands no machinery using R22 may be manufactured after 2010, with R22 being phased completely out by 2020. The new refrigerant being looked at to replace R22 is called Nu-22. The actual ref. number escapes me, but I will try and get back to you on that one.
Mike maybe your confusion is a chiller manufactured after November 15 1993 MUST! use class 11 refrigerant.
I hope this clears up some confusion for you.
Mike N
I do work on chillers for a living. I have worked on machines manufactured before I was born (some chillers dating pre1955), thats a life of over 45 years when the average life expectancy is 15-20 years for any chiller.
I am sorry some how you have been misinformed about what types of refrigerant chillers use. Just because a refrigerant is classified as a class 1 refrigerant has no barring on if it can be used in a chiller.
Class codes are made to classify the refrigerants into two categories based on their ODP (ozone depletion potential). Class 1 refrigerants have an ODP greater or equal to .2, while Class 11 refrigerants are known or may be reasonably anticipated to cause or contribute harmfull effects to the Ozone layer, which include ALL HCFC's. Now even HCFC's have been issued a Global Warming Potential (GWP)
Now as the Montreal Protocal (initial date of acknowledgement of existance Sept. 6 1987, a revision date of June 1990) and a few select other agreements (as in The Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990) have came into existance the manufactures of chillers are started to manufacture their chillers to operate within that scope of eliminating ozone depleting (ODP) refrigerants. Thus the manufacture's started to manufacture chillers to use class 11 refrigerants, and not class 1 as of November 15, 1993.
Now for machines that were manufactured prior to the Montreal Protocal, does this mean that all machines must be retrofitted to use class 11 refrigerants? No it does not. The machines manufactured prior to Nov. 15 1993 can not be ordered to be retrofitted to a class 11 refrigerant. That choice is left up to the owner of the chiller.
A few topics to read on that provide some very interesting points would be the Clean Air act of 1990,Title VI of Stratospheric Ozone Protection and section 608 National Recycling and Emission Reduction Program,and the Montreal Protocal.
FYI 1. Freon is a registered trade mark of Dupont Chemical Company.
2. CFC's ceased to be produced after 1995.
3.As it stands no machinery using R22 may be manufactured after 2010, with R22 being phased completely out by 2020. The new refrigerant being looked at to replace R22 is called Nu-22. The actual ref. number escapes me, but I will try and get back to you on that one.
Mike maybe your confusion is a chiller manufactured after November 15 1993 MUST! use class 11 refrigerant.
I hope this clears up some confusion for you.
Never claimed to be an expert on the subject, nor do I want to be, but it's always good to have all the facts.......thanks for the post!
09-27-2009 | 07:11 PM
#29
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From: Valencia, Ca
Greetings,
Regarding A/C "o" ring replacement (1980-928), my understanding is that there are only (4) "o" rings that need replacement, not including compressor "o" rings. If so, at what/where connection hoses are the "o" located?
Thanks,
Ed S.
Regarding A/C "o" ring replacement (1980-928), my understanding is that there are only (4) "o" rings that need replacement, not including compressor "o" rings. If so, at what/where connection hoses are the "o" located?
Thanks,
Ed S.
09-27-2009 | 07:31 PM
#30
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With chillers they are either high or low pressure. High pressure typical R22, 12 134a, some other refrigerants. Low pressure refrigerants are R11, 123 (which is a known carcnogenic). Then you also have the cascade systems as well.
The Nu22 replacement has slightly less than desired oil affinity. 
For absorbers, water is the refrigerant, but the Lithium Bromide with the correct inhibitors is the key, plus the correct amount of heat in the machine.
FYI, In Europe they ARE not even considering R410a as a R22 replacement.
Always a good thing to have your Universal License.
For your car, I say fix the leak spend the extra money for R12, and go. Per the refrigerant characteristics R12 is a superior refrigerant. Can't be hard to find r12 in your area. Sometimes at your local a/c shop talk to the tech, tell him you'll give him a few extra $$ to do a side r12 job.
Nice to have a few jugs of R12 in the garage.
The Nu22 replacement has slightly less than desired oil affinity. For absorbers, water is the refrigerant, but the Lithium Bromide with the correct inhibitors is the key, plus the correct amount of heat in the machine.
FYI, In Europe they ARE not even considering R410a as a R22 replacement.
Always a good thing to have your Universal License.
For your car, I say fix the leak spend the extra money for R12, and go. Per the refrigerant characteristics R12 is a superior refrigerant. Can't be hard to find r12 in your area. Sometimes at your local a/c shop talk to the tech, tell him you'll give him a few extra $$ to do a side r12 job.
Nice to have a few jugs of R12 in the garage.
