Upgardes for power for an '80 shark?
03-21-2004, 10:29 PM
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Upgardes for power for an '80 shark?
What kind of power upgrades are possible for a 1980 928, and if there are some choices what kind of power are ppl gettin out of this engine?
Thinking of buying one cause i found a 5sp, but want to improve on performance?
Thanks,
Ryan
Thinking of buying one cause i found a 5sp, but want to improve on performance?
Thanks,
Ryan
03-21-2004, 11:43 PM
#2
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Your choices are far and few between.
928 Motorsports is doing a supercharger package....about 60-70 hp for $4900.
A set of headers for $6xx-ish...maybe 10-15 hp
A true dual exhaust, w/ a cat bypass and rear muffler bypass...another 5-10hp.
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator and fresh injectors...gains marginal.
You could always stroke it for around $5-6K and get around 70hp.
There is no free lunch in the game of hp.
Scott
80 auto Cabriolet
928 Motorsports is doing a supercharger package....about 60-70 hp for $4900.
A set of headers for $6xx-ish...maybe 10-15 hp
A true dual exhaust, w/ a cat bypass and rear muffler bypass...another 5-10hp.
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator and fresh injectors...gains marginal.
You could always stroke it for around $5-6K and get around 70hp.
There is no free lunch in the game of hp.
Scott
80 auto Cabriolet
03-22-2004, 02:42 AM
#4
Nordschleife Master
I've been looking at the same stuff.
Here is the deal, currently I can't find ANYBODY who is selling any sort of a forced induction kit for the 80-84 US 928. "John..." of this board is working on a turbo kit, and "GoRideSnow" (Andy?) is working on a positive displacement kit. Suppositly FAST is also working on a centrifical blower kit. However, work is slow and not finished. The 928 motorsports will ONLY work for the CIS, or mechenical fuel injecton cars. This is Euro cars up to 84, and US cars up to 79.
Try rerouting the intake. As of yet, there are NO dyno certifiable gains in power. Several 928 tuners, includeing Devek, IIRC, have assured me that there can be no power increases. There are no kits that I know of.
I don't know of any nitrous oxide kits, but I'm willing to listen. Again, limited market, limited supply.
The best intake modification that I know of is to graft a Euro S intake and throtal body to the car. This required cutting out some metal to make the intake fit to the connector between it and the AFM. It is good for around 20 hp, maybe. The AFM is the limiting factor for the intake. Is is the smallest point in the system, EXPECALY after a Euro S intake upgradeing. You could try upgradeing to a larger MAF, HOWEVER, it's not a dro in conversion, and "John..." is the only person that I know of thats done this.
You can get welded cams. Most people don't like such as they're apperently not all that reliable. The only other real alternative is a Euro S cam, which goes for ABOUT a grand a set.
There are MSDS and Devek headers avalible. Maybe 20 hp when done with a full raceing exaust.
Euro S heads are also avalible. Again, about a grand a set, BEFORE the larger valves and what not are bourght into the mix.
A 4.7l motor with Euro S2 cams, intake, daul exauste, and heads will make around 300 hp. Headers would be additional power.
There are no "chips" for the car. Reasons:
1. The ignition system is a powerful inductive discharge, pointless distributer controled system. Basicly this means the timeing is controled is a mannor that is not all that disymiler to the cars in the 60s. If you want to adjust the base timeing, you adjust the distributer with a Allen wrench. I don't know of an easy way to adjust the timeing "cruve"
2. The fuel system is pre digital Air Flow Controled EFI. The stock injectors at stock fuel pressure are limited to about 240-250 crankshaft hp. Anything more than that is going to require a riseing rate fuel pressure regulator, OR other modifications to the system. The ECU is NOT digital. There is NO "look up" memory chip controling the fuel mixture. There for no "chip" is possible. The mixture can be "adjusted" by adjusting the AFM to specs.
You can bolt a 5.0l block to the engine, OR stroke the 4.5l block to 5.5ls. You could even use a stroked 5l block for a grand total of 6.0l of displacement. I would deffently suggest getting the Euro S2 cams, heads, intakes, etc.
You could try getting an 83-84 transmition, rebuilding it, and doing the complex procedure of bolting your 80-82 rear end to it, resulting in a very drag racer like 1st gear over all ratio of 11.5:1, vs the stock 9.6:1 or so.
Brake upgrades, all the way to the "Big Reds" calibler are possible.
Spped all boils down to money. How fast do you want to go today?
Here is the deal, currently I can't find ANYBODY who is selling any sort of a forced induction kit for the 80-84 US 928. "John..." of this board is working on a turbo kit, and "GoRideSnow" (Andy?) is working on a positive displacement kit. Suppositly FAST is also working on a centrifical blower kit. However, work is slow and not finished. The 928 motorsports will ONLY work for the CIS, or mechenical fuel injecton cars. This is Euro cars up to 84, and US cars up to 79.
Try rerouting the intake. As of yet, there are NO dyno certifiable gains in power. Several 928 tuners, includeing Devek, IIRC, have assured me that there can be no power increases. There are no kits that I know of.
I don't know of any nitrous oxide kits, but I'm willing to listen. Again, limited market, limited supply.
The best intake modification that I know of is to graft a Euro S intake and throtal body to the car. This required cutting out some metal to make the intake fit to the connector between it and the AFM. It is good for around 20 hp, maybe. The AFM is the limiting factor for the intake. Is is the smallest point in the system, EXPECALY after a Euro S intake upgradeing. You could try upgradeing to a larger MAF, HOWEVER, it's not a dro in conversion, and "John..." is the only person that I know of thats done this.
You can get welded cams. Most people don't like such as they're apperently not all that reliable. The only other real alternative is a Euro S cam, which goes for ABOUT a grand a set.
There are MSDS and Devek headers avalible. Maybe 20 hp when done with a full raceing exaust.
Euro S heads are also avalible. Again, about a grand a set, BEFORE the larger valves and what not are bourght into the mix.
A 4.7l motor with Euro S2 cams, intake, daul exauste, and heads will make around 300 hp. Headers would be additional power.
There are no "chips" for the car. Reasons:
1. The ignition system is a powerful inductive discharge, pointless distributer controled system. Basicly this means the timeing is controled is a mannor that is not all that disymiler to the cars in the 60s. If you want to adjust the base timeing, you adjust the distributer with a Allen wrench. I don't know of an easy way to adjust the timeing "cruve"
2. The fuel system is pre digital Air Flow Controled EFI. The stock injectors at stock fuel pressure are limited to about 240-250 crankshaft hp. Anything more than that is going to require a riseing rate fuel pressure regulator, OR other modifications to the system. The ECU is NOT digital. There is NO "look up" memory chip controling the fuel mixture. There for no "chip" is possible. The mixture can be "adjusted" by adjusting the AFM to specs.
You can bolt a 5.0l block to the engine, OR stroke the 4.5l block to 5.5ls. You could even use a stroked 5l block for a grand total of 6.0l of displacement. I would deffently suggest getting the Euro S2 cams, heads, intakes, etc.
You could try getting an 83-84 transmition, rebuilding it, and doing the complex procedure of bolting your 80-82 rear end to it, resulting in a very drag racer like 1st gear over all ratio of 11.5:1, vs the stock 9.6:1 or so.
Brake upgrades, all the way to the "Big Reds" calibler are possible.
Spped all boils down to money. How fast do you want to go today?
03-22-2004, 05:00 AM
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You don't need a kit to install N2O. Do your homework and make your own setup. One great book that I recommend is "Nitrous Oxide Injection" by David Vizard. It is a great book for anyone trying to learn the art of classic nitrous injection. It isn't as up-to-date as to delve into computer controlled systems, but when designing your own system, you don't really need that info!
As for the chips, I could smack myself in the head. I knew the earlier models were distributor controlled ignition... I posted not a week ago on adjusting the timing by rotating the distributor, LOL. I'm still unsure of the later cars though. What ignition systems were used on the S4, GT and GTS?
Though there might not be dyno charts showing gained horses from intake rerouting... it seems that the stock intake location isn't getting air DIRECTLY from outside of the car. A low-mounted ramair intake would most likely give you somewhere in the range of ~5hp unless you also decided to replace the stock airbox in the back and opted for a K&N (or similar) conical filter mounted in a cooler location surrounded by a heat shield box that also acts as a method of ramair. It has been shown on countless other cars that supplying the intake with a rush of colder air gives an extra dose of power. I won't belittle anyone and go into why! But finding a cooler location for the filter allows the bottlenecking of airflow to occur where the surrounding air is cooler. Restricting the airflow close to the engine gives more time for engine bay heat to heat up the intake charge. "Not cool!" ...literally
As for the chips, I could smack myself in the head. I knew the earlier models were distributor controlled ignition... I posted not a week ago on adjusting the timing by rotating the distributor, LOL. I'm still unsure of the later cars though. What ignition systems were used on the S4, GT and GTS?
Though there might not be dyno charts showing gained horses from intake rerouting... it seems that the stock intake location isn't getting air DIRECTLY from outside of the car. A low-mounted ramair intake would most likely give you somewhere in the range of ~5hp unless you also decided to replace the stock airbox in the back and opted for a K&N (or similar) conical filter mounted in a cooler location surrounded by a heat shield box that also acts as a method of ramair. It has been shown on countless other cars that supplying the intake with a rush of colder air gives an extra dose of power. I won't belittle anyone and go into why! But finding a cooler location for the filter allows the bottlenecking of airflow to occur where the surrounding air is cooler. Restricting the airflow close to the engine gives more time for engine bay heat to heat up the intake charge. "Not cool!" ...literally
03-22-2004, 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by ViribusUnits
Here is the deal, currently I can't find ANYBODY who is selling any sort of a forced induction kit for the 80-84 US 928. "John..." of this board is working on a turbo kit, and "GoRideSnow" (Andy?) is working on a positive displacement kit. Suppositly FAST is also working on a centrifical blower kit. However, work is slow and not finished. The 928 motorsports will ONLY work for the CIS, or mechenical fuel injecton cars. This is Euro cars up to 84, and US cars up to 79.
Here is the deal, currently I can't find ANYBODY who is selling any sort of a forced induction kit for the 80-84 US 928. "John..." of this board is working on a turbo kit, and "GoRideSnow" (Andy?) is working on a positive displacement kit. Suppositly FAST is also working on a centrifical blower kit. However, work is slow and not finished. The 928 motorsports will ONLY work for the CIS, or mechenical fuel injecton cars. This is Euro cars up to 84, and US cars up to 79.
http://www.murf928.com
Look near the very bottom of the page.
03-22-2004, 06:47 AM
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Corrections to above:
928 motorsports sells a supercharger kit for the '80-'84 L-Jetronic 928 (link).
The European "S2" intake will not make 20 horsepower on a stock US '80-'82 4.5 engine.
Exhaust is the best starting point. A set of '85-'86 manifolds and a free-flowing exhaust plus an adjustable rising-rate fuel pressure regulator is worth about 15 rwhp (link).
The exhaust and intake mods together *might* make 20 rwhp. Cams are a better (though more expensive) route than the Euro intake. A Rennlister with a US 4.5, Euro S2 cams, US intake and heads, headers, exhaust, and a rising-rate fuel regulator made 232 rwhp (~270 flywheel horsepower - 50 better than stock) with no loss of torque.
I suggest waiting to see what Andy (GoRideSno) cooks up with his positive-displacement supercharger kit. The 928 Motorsports kit is really expensive, and the intake/cams/heads route will probably as much as Andy's kit with less satisfying results. You'll want to do the exhaust mods in either case.
Best of luck.
928 motorsports sells a supercharger kit for the '80-'84 L-Jetronic 928 (link).
The European "S2" intake will not make 20 horsepower on a stock US '80-'82 4.5 engine.
Exhaust is the best starting point. A set of '85-'86 manifolds and a free-flowing exhaust plus an adjustable rising-rate fuel pressure regulator is worth about 15 rwhp (link).
The exhaust and intake mods together *might* make 20 rwhp. Cams are a better (though more expensive) route than the Euro intake. A Rennlister with a US 4.5, Euro S2 cams, US intake and heads, headers, exhaust, and a rising-rate fuel regulator made 232 rwhp (~270 flywheel horsepower - 50 better than stock) with no loss of torque.
I suggest waiting to see what Andy (GoRideSno) cooks up with his positive-displacement supercharger kit. The 928 Motorsports kit is really expensive, and the intake/cams/heads route will probably as much as Andy's kit with less satisfying results. You'll want to do the exhaust mods in either case.
Best of luck.
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03-22-2004, 07:22 AM
#8
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Originally posted by Jon F
A Rennlister with a US 4.5, Euro S2 cams, US intake and heads, headers, exhaust, and a rising-rate fuel regulator made 232 rwhp (~270 flywheel horsepower - 50 better than stock) with no loss of torque.
A Rennlister with a US 4.5, Euro S2 cams, US intake and heads, headers, exhaust, and a rising-rate fuel regulator made 232 rwhp (~270 flywheel horsepower - 50 better than stock) with no loss of torque.
03-22-2004, 07:36 AM
#9
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If you've found a good '80 5 - sp, that doesn't need a lot of coin to get it in top shape - buy it and enjoy it for what it is: a well balanced, reasonably powerful GT. The big returns on the '80 come from $ spent on shocks and good tires, not on power mods.
If a bag full of more (reasonably priced) horsepower is in your sights, forget the '80 and find a S4 - these are 'real horses' that work, and are likely much cheaper in the long run.
PS If you already owned an '80, loved the car, and wanted to continue "improving the breed", the other guys are giving great advice: However, as you haven't yet committed to your first 928.....
If a bag full of more (reasonably priced) horsepower is in your sights, forget the '80 and find a S4 - these are 'real horses' that work, and are likely much cheaper in the long run.
PS If you already owned an '80, loved the car, and wanted to continue "improving the breed", the other guys are giving great advice: However, as you haven't yet committed to your first 928.....
03-22-2004, 07:43 AM
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FSAEracer03, the car I was referencing was a 1982 US-spec 928 with Euro "S2" cams, aftermarket headers (presumably MSDS), a free-flowing exhaust, and an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator. The heads and intake were both standard US-spec.
03-22-2004, 12:14 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
I did not know 928 Motorsports added a new kit. It is news to me. I just went all over the 928 motor sports site not too long ago. Most intersting. No fuel system modifications on the site. Hum...
For referenceing to the Euro S intake and throtal body, go to that huge thread about it. Use the search fuction for Euro S Throtal Body. There are several cars that have the Euro S TB installed and claim a increase in hp. The throtal body almsot certantly does something, otherwise Porsche wouldn't have bothered in the Euro S.
Try here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...o+throtal+Body
As soon as you get a good working cool air intake system, give me a call I'm intersted in a purchace. I know that at speed, the air box is slightly pressurized so the stock set up can't be all that bad, but it sure seems like something could be better, I just have not seen, built, or heard of anything that would be better. Also, don't bash the stock air filter. It's huge for the size of motor, so high flow rates per sqin aren't as important cause theres so many sq in.
For referenceing to the Euro S intake and throtal body, go to that huge thread about it. Use the search fuction for Euro S Throtal Body. There are several cars that have the Euro S TB installed and claim a increase in hp. The throtal body almsot certantly does something, otherwise Porsche wouldn't have bothered in the Euro S.
Try here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...o+throtal+Body
As soon as you get a good working cool air intake system, give me a call I'm intersted in a purchace. I know that at speed, the air box is slightly pressurized so the stock set up can't be all that bad, but it sure seems like something could be better, I just have not seen, built, or heard of anything that would be better. Also, don't bash the stock air filter. It's huge for the size of motor, so high flow rates per sqin aren't as important cause theres so many sq in.
03-22-2004, 01:49 PM
#12
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" Also, don't bash the stock air filter. It's huge for the size of motor, so high flow rates per sqin aren't as important cause theres so many sq in."
quote... ViribusUnits
Words of gold - and the stock unit does a superior job of cleaning air in the real world of daily driving. Perhaps less critical for track use...
quote... ViribusUnits
Words of gold - and the stock unit does a superior job of cleaning air in the real world of daily driving. Perhaps less critical for track use...
03-22-2004, 03:05 PM
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Thanx for the clarification Jon...
...as for the chips, those new PowerChips supposedly add 16-25 hp for their 93 octance chips depending when your car was made ('83-'95). Granted thats going to be inflated some, but maybe it's worth looking into. They supply dyno charts (or fabricated ones, at least).
So for the '83+ S, S4, GT and GTS... the ignition system changed. What Bosch system did they decide to go for on these?
...as for the chips, those new PowerChips supposedly add 16-25 hp for their 93 octance chips depending when your car was made ('83-'95). Granted thats going to be inflated some, but maybe it's worth looking into. They supply dyno charts (or fabricated ones, at least).
So for the '83+ S, S4, GT and GTS... the ignition system changed. What Bosch system did they decide to go for on these?
03-22-2004, 03:30 PM
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If you want "cold air" intake, just cut two holes in your hood.
Like the hoods on the Strosek cars:
http://www.thedeathknight.com/928/928StrosekFlyer.jpg
Like the hoods on the Strosek cars:
http://www.thedeathknight.com/928/928StrosekFlyer.jpg
03-22-2004, 03:34 PM
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And I agree that the best thing to do, if you want more power from a US s2, is just to save your money, and buy an s4. You will need a good amount of money to really boost the power of an s2. So rather than spend that money, just save it, and eventually sell your s2, and buy an s4. Then you will have a car with a lot more performance options...
And yes, there are NOS kits for the 928.
Perfectly reasonable option, and better pricing than a lot of the other mods.
It has it's limitations of course...
But good for that extra kick.
Search the archives for info.
And yes, there are NOS kits for the 928.
Perfectly reasonable option, and better pricing than a lot of the other mods.
It has it's limitations of course...
But good for that extra kick.
Search the archives for info.