eRams for Porsche 928 on line
03-06-2004, 10:27 PM
#16
Race Car
What are the amp ratings of the battery? It is supposed to drive off the battery, not the alternator.
If we ever get around to doing an independent test of this thing, measuring what happens to ignition system would definitely be of interest. Since the alternator charges the battery I am curious about how a 7 second power draw could be truly isolated from what is tied directly to the alternator (ignition system). We certainly do not want to be misfiring when flooring it. Rather than speculate on what the ultimate effects are I would prefer to just test the thing and see what happens to what. Dyno or g-tech testing would require pre-installation baseline, post-installation baseline (with unit switched off) and then a third with the unit switched on. Anything else to evaluate?
If we ever get around to doing an independent test of this thing, measuring what happens to ignition system would definitely be of interest. Since the alternator charges the battery I am curious about how a 7 second power draw could be truly isolated from what is tied directly to the alternator (ignition system). We certainly do not want to be misfiring when flooring it. Rather than speculate on what the ultimate effects are I would prefer to just test the thing and see what happens to what. Dyno or g-tech testing would require pre-installation baseline, post-installation baseline (with unit switched off) and then a third with the unit switched on. Anything else to evaluate?
03-06-2004, 11:04 PM
#17
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Cold cranking amps on the battery are 800-850. I agree the dyno before and after tells the tale.
If I was only going to get 'boost" at full throttle, than $350 gets me an
E-Bay NOS system 70 HP..............
If I was only going to get 'boost" at full throttle, than $350 gets me an
E-Bay NOS system 70 HP..............
03-06-2004, 11:43 PM
#18
Race Car
Very good point on the NOS, although I thought the low level systems were about double that. Would $350 be a rare or sure thing? Just curious. Any estimates on operating costs for the type of system you mentioned (refill cost and frequency)?
Gotta have perspective on these things, right?
Gotta have perspective on these things, right?
03-07-2004, 12:29 AM
#19
Developer
Thread Starter
Links to test charts and posted dyno runs below.
BTW: our website says "do not confuse this with a supercharger..."
Having said that (again) let me try to clarify...
Remember Cowl Induction and Ram Air Systems on our 60's muscle cars? Cowl Induction is real, we used it, and we got very real horsepower gains
from it. How 'bout Ram Air? Also real, and well documented but neither of these force-feed systems did a thing until you were clocking almost 100 MPH.
Here's my point: there is no "Ram Air" effect at say, 25 MPH when you slam into WOT - your system is SUCKING air and Mark's testing showed that the typical air box had 1/2 an inch of vacuum at that time.
Think of this as pressurizing your airbox like cowl induction or ram systems do at high speeds. That's all.
If you confuse this with a supercharger and expect supercharger-like results - you will be unhappy. If you compare it to these other force-feed systems I have associated it with, I think the gains are right in line and where they should be.
This is no bilge pump. This is a design-built, patented, axial fan with a very powerful electric motor that can take it from zero to 25,500 RPM in 0.15 seconds. No bilge pump has those numbers.
Here is the information we were provided by the manufacturer:
Varying with the application, the eRam should produce 1/2 inch to 1.5 inches of pressure in your air box. From a 1/2 an inch of vacuum to 1/2 an inch of pressure is a measurable increase that their dyno chart showed a
measurable gain from.
Dyno results are posted here:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/dyno.htm
Current draw is posted here:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/labtestresults.htm
...about the current draw - the alternator load is a non-factor as the eRam is an intermittent-on only device. The eRam is only on momentarily and occasionally (under WOT) and draws from battery reserve - not live alternator feed. The alternator can slowly restore those amps that were consumed over the next few minutes. This is not any different than the starter motor/battery/alternator relationship.
Finally - we were convinced to carry this product on our site and in our store because a) the claims were reasonable "5% HP increase" is all they promise, and b) they offer to refund all your money and 1/2 your dyno fees if you install it and can show less than a 4% average increase.
We thought that a good enough guarantee from from a performance product maker that we chose to offer it on our sites.
BTW: our website says "do not confuse this with a supercharger..."
Having said that (again) let me try to clarify...
Remember Cowl Induction and Ram Air Systems on our 60's muscle cars? Cowl Induction is real, we used it, and we got very real horsepower gains
from it. How 'bout Ram Air? Also real, and well documented but neither of these force-feed systems did a thing until you were clocking almost 100 MPH.
Here's my point: there is no "Ram Air" effect at say, 25 MPH when you slam into WOT - your system is SUCKING air and Mark's testing showed that the typical air box had 1/2 an inch of vacuum at that time.
Think of this as pressurizing your airbox like cowl induction or ram systems do at high speeds. That's all.
If you confuse this with a supercharger and expect supercharger-like results - you will be unhappy. If you compare it to these other force-feed systems I have associated it with, I think the gains are right in line and where they should be.
This is no bilge pump. This is a design-built, patented, axial fan with a very powerful electric motor that can take it from zero to 25,500 RPM in 0.15 seconds. No bilge pump has those numbers.
Here is the information we were provided by the manufacturer:
Varying with the application, the eRam should produce 1/2 inch to 1.5 inches of pressure in your air box. From a 1/2 an inch of vacuum to 1/2 an inch of pressure is a measurable increase that their dyno chart showed a
measurable gain from.
Dyno results are posted here:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/dyno.htm
Current draw is posted here:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/labtestresults.htm
...about the current draw - the alternator load is a non-factor as the eRam is an intermittent-on only device. The eRam is only on momentarily and occasionally (under WOT) and draws from battery reserve - not live alternator feed. The alternator can slowly restore those amps that were consumed over the next few minutes. This is not any different than the starter motor/battery/alternator relationship.
Finally - we were convinced to carry this product on our site and in our store because a) the claims were reasonable "5% HP increase" is all they promise, and b) they offer to refund all your money and 1/2 your dyno fees if you install it and can show less than a 4% average increase.
We thought that a good enough guarantee from from a performance product maker that we chose to offer it on our sites.
03-07-2004, 02:06 AM
#20
Race Car
Carl,
Thanks for the info. I've been looking at this product from afar for several years. Back then, 5 liter engines were the outer limit for expected performance improvement. Given the efficiency of the 928 engines, some doubt arose as to whether we would see those kinds of gains for the 5 liter 1985 + engines.
The dyno test, which is probably the same I looked at several years ago, was for a 1984. Results are encouraging but not yet dyno proven for 1985+ 928s. We just haven't seen dyno sheets for the 5+ liter 928 engines. So we remain curious.
I have no reason to question the integrity of the company and product. Just would be a whole lot quicker to pull out the 'ol checkbook after seeing a dyno sheet from a true comp. That has been my excuse for any hesitancy to try the eRam products.
But, excuses are WEAK. There's a money back guarantee. Not sure how someone can stand behind their product any taller than this.
Quick - somebody buy these things, dyno them and post results before we all get wedgies from sitting on the fence!
Thanks for the info. I've been looking at this product from afar for several years. Back then, 5 liter engines were the outer limit for expected performance improvement. Given the efficiency of the 928 engines, some doubt arose as to whether we would see those kinds of gains for the 5 liter 1985 + engines.
The dyno test, which is probably the same I looked at several years ago, was for a 1984. Results are encouraging but not yet dyno proven for 1985+ 928s. We just haven't seen dyno sheets for the 5+ liter 928 engines. So we remain curious.
I have no reason to question the integrity of the company and product. Just would be a whole lot quicker to pull out the 'ol checkbook after seeing a dyno sheet from a true comp. That has been my excuse for any hesitancy to try the eRam products.
But, excuses are WEAK. There's a money back guarantee. Not sure how someone can stand behind their product any taller than this.
Quick - somebody buy these things, dyno them and post results before we all get wedgies from sitting on the fence!
03-07-2004, 07:36 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
dyno test don't lie, bit may be a little fuzzy. This is the test for the 84 928, w&wo/ eRam. It doesn't state the vehicles level of mods, and if the airbox is stock, w/stock filter, k&n, or none.
03-07-2004, 11:26 AM
#22
Race Car
Hi Jim,
I do believe the dyno on this (I assume the '84 was a 16 valve 4.7 liter engine) - I have no reason not to. Just haven't seen a dyno sheet on a 32 valve 5 liter.
Maybe I will accept my own challenge to run out and take it to the dyno myself to see what it can do for '85 & '86 32v engines if no other dyno results materialize. Unfortunately for me, no running out to play cars until 1) the baby arrives and 2) we recover from #1.
I did a quick search and there are a number of places that do dyno testing around the Charlotte area due to NASCAR and residual car/racing enthusiast element. Any types of dyno machines that should be avoided?
I do believe the dyno on this (I assume the '84 was a 16 valve 4.7 liter engine) - I have no reason not to. Just haven't seen a dyno sheet on a 32 valve 5 liter.
Maybe I will accept my own challenge to run out and take it to the dyno myself to see what it can do for '85 & '86 32v engines if no other dyno results materialize. Unfortunately for me, no running out to play cars until 1) the baby arrives and 2) we recover from #1.
I did a quick search and there are a number of places that do dyno testing around the Charlotte area due to NASCAR and residual car/racing enthusiast element. Any types of dyno machines that should be avoided?
03-07-2004, 12:16 PM
#23
Developer
Thread Starter
What we need here is the inventor himself - Mark Kibort
Hey Mark - care to take a coupla swings at this?
Maybe we can get an eRam installation to Kansas in July with the rest of us?
Hey Mark - care to take a coupla swings at this?
Maybe we can get an eRam installation to Kansas in July with the rest of us?
03-07-2004, 12:27 PM
#24
Developer
Thread Starter
James: "Any types of dyno machines that should be avoided?"
I asked the same questions when I started to document changes to our cars I heard from several sources (that I trust) that you want a Dyno-Jet chassis Dyno, and avoid the Mustang-brand chassis dyno.
I was told you can go to two different Mustang dynos on the same day with the same car and get HP readings that are wildly inconsistent.
But, they said, the DynoJets are all calibrated much better and include temperature compensation too - so you could go to a DynoJet Dyno anywhere with the same car and would get answers within a coupla percent of each other.
Of course, that is what you want - repeatable consistency or the before and after tests mean nothing.
Both these makes use the system known as "Inertial Force" or "Inertial Drum Resistance" It isn't the absolute best, but it is good enough and accurate for what your doiing as long as you are under 600 hp. The other kind of dyno puts a load on the motor at peak RPM - but they are hard-to-find and expensive. Dyno-Jets are much more common and go from $75 an hour to $120 an hour.
I asked the same questions when I started to document changes to our cars I heard from several sources (that I trust) that you want a Dyno-Jet chassis Dyno, and avoid the Mustang-brand chassis dyno.
I was told you can go to two different Mustang dynos on the same day with the same car and get HP readings that are wildly inconsistent.
But, they said, the DynoJets are all calibrated much better and include temperature compensation too - so you could go to a DynoJet Dyno anywhere with the same car and would get answers within a coupla percent of each other.
Of course, that is what you want - repeatable consistency or the before and after tests mean nothing.
Both these makes use the system known as "Inertial Force" or "Inertial Drum Resistance" It isn't the absolute best, but it is good enough and accurate for what your doiing as long as you are under 600 hp. The other kind of dyno puts a load on the motor at peak RPM - but they are hard-to-find and expensive. Dyno-Jets are much more common and go from $75 an hour to $120 an hour.
03-08-2004, 01:41 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Now, if you are you are going to comment on this subject, you better get your facts straight.
First: we have tested the dual eRAM on my old 230hp 4.7 and gained 7 to 8ftlbs from 3000rpm to redline. next, they were BOTH running off the stock electrical system
Second: You have to understand how the charging system works. It responds to voltage drop on the battery. a given load, will cause the alternator to respond based on battery performance. (for short term loads , as in the eRAM) then the batter is recharged over a slower period of time with the alternator. EVEN if the alternator was fully responsible for the 80-100amps of the eRAM draw, that is about 2hp mechanically. If you can get 10hp and the cost is 2hp, then the gain is 8hp, and that is what we are seeing. HOWEVER, we have not seen any difference in using a separate battery vs using the car's stock electrical system's battery.
Third, you make a statement that the charging will not last. Well, hard to argue with our many cars running the eRAMs for over 5-7 years.
Again, if you understand the load process on the electrical system, you will not make such a statement.
Mark
First: we have tested the dual eRAM on my old 230hp 4.7 and gained 7 to 8ftlbs from 3000rpm to redline. next, they were BOTH running off the stock electrical system
Second: You have to understand how the charging system works. It responds to voltage drop on the battery. a given load, will cause the alternator to respond based on battery performance. (for short term loads , as in the eRAM) then the batter is recharged over a slower period of time with the alternator. EVEN if the alternator was fully responsible for the 80-100amps of the eRAM draw, that is about 2hp mechanically. If you can get 10hp and the cost is 2hp, then the gain is 8hp, and that is what we are seeing. HOWEVER, we have not seen any difference in using a separate battery vs using the car's stock electrical system's battery.
Third, you make a statement that the charging will not last. Well, hard to argue with our many cars running the eRAMs for over 5-7 years.
Again, if you understand the load process on the electrical system, you will not make such a statement.
Mark
Originally posted by toofast928
So on the 928 we need two eRams, one for each intake hose. Even at say 4000 RPM that's minium of 75 amp draw. 928 alternators are rated at 80 -85 amps. (Lets not mention the Paris Rome alternator.)
What ever power is generated is canceled by the load draw from the alternator. Charging system won't last with this additional draw.............my two cents
So on the 928 we need two eRams, one for each intake hose. Even at say 4000 RPM that's minium of 75 amp draw. 928 alternators are rated at 80 -85 amps. (Lets not mention the Paris Rome alternator.)
What ever power is generated is canceled by the load draw from the alternator. Charging system won't last with this additional draw.............my two cents
03-08-2004, 01:55 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
First of all, we have done the indepedant dynoing of the device. we had a test right in front of everyone at the devek days a few years back.
The battery is always tied to the charging system, but you have to understand the dynamics. voltage drop when you start your car goes down to 9-10 volts. voltage drop when you turn on your head lights stabilizes at around 13.8 vs peaks of 14. voltage drop with the eRAM is in the 13.5 range on most cars. So, no chance of misfiring, as the voltage is still stable. as was said, if the charging system brings the voltage all the way back to normal charging voltage, then , yes, all of the current will come from the alternator, but remember, its 750watts, not the 2-3000watts of most starter motors. most of the kit car boys with the big stereos, have to beef up their alternators due to the loads being present ALL the time. some even need large capacitors to handle the peak loads.
If you look at the recent test on Scots 928 (1982), you can see that we had 10ft lb peak gains, before the car ran out of fuel and the eRAMs were even running on less than 11 volts, due to a ailing electrical sytem. (that will be fixed and re-tested soon at the dyno!)
Mark
The battery is always tied to the charging system, but you have to understand the dynamics. voltage drop when you start your car goes down to 9-10 volts. voltage drop when you turn on your head lights stabilizes at around 13.8 vs peaks of 14. voltage drop with the eRAM is in the 13.5 range on most cars. So, no chance of misfiring, as the voltage is still stable. as was said, if the charging system brings the voltage all the way back to normal charging voltage, then , yes, all of the current will come from the alternator, but remember, its 750watts, not the 2-3000watts of most starter motors. most of the kit car boys with the big stereos, have to beef up their alternators due to the loads being present ALL the time. some even need large capacitors to handle the peak loads.
If you look at the recent test on Scots 928 (1982), you can see that we had 10ft lb peak gains, before the car ran out of fuel and the eRAMs were even running on less than 11 volts, due to a ailing electrical sytem. (that will be fixed and re-tested soon at the dyno!)
Mark
Originally posted by James-man
What are the amp ratings of the battery? It is supposed to drive off the battery, not the alternator.
If we ever get around to doing an independent test of this thing, measuring what happens to ignition system would definitely be of interest. Since the alternator charges the battery I am curious about how a 7 second power draw could be truly isolated from what is tied directly to the alternator (ignition system). We certainly do not want to be misfiring when flooring it. Rather than speculate on what the ultimate effects are I would prefer to just test the thing and see what happens to what. Dyno or g-tech testing would require pre-installation baseline, post-installation baseline (with unit switched off) and then a third with the unit switched on. Anything else to evaluate?
What are the amp ratings of the battery? It is supposed to drive off the battery, not the alternator.
If we ever get around to doing an independent test of this thing, measuring what happens to ignition system would definitely be of interest. Since the alternator charges the battery I am curious about how a 7 second power draw could be truly isolated from what is tied directly to the alternator (ignition system). We certainly do not want to be misfiring when flooring it. Rather than speculate on what the ultimate effects are I would prefer to just test the thing and see what happens to what. Dyno or g-tech testing would require pre-installation baseline, post-installation baseline (with unit switched off) and then a third with the unit switched on. Anything else to evaluate?
03-08-2004, 02:06 PM
#27
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Hmmm, sure seems like a marketing excercise, Kibort.
Perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your support of Rennlist...before the Admin does it for you?
Just a friendly suggestion...
Perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your support of Rennlist...before the Admin does it for you?
Just a friendly suggestion...
03-08-2004, 02:10 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
statically insignificant? Let me just say, ive spent more for less.
most of us have!
Just looking at ALL the mods, and Ive done most of them all and dynoed as often as I could. we saw this on an 84 4.7 from stock 175hp to modified 243hp. Lets look at the costs of 68hp.
headers 12hp to 188 cost installed $1000
exhaust 12hp to 200 cost installed $700
cams, intake 23hp to 223hp cost installed $1500
fuel regs and tuning 10hp to 233hp cost $420
eRAM 9hp to 242 hp cost $600
then, the big mods, 5 liter short block and euro heads added $4k with labor and thats CHEAP. gains, 242hp to 275hp. add $1000 racing devek headers stage II and get it up around 290hp.
so, you have a calculator, show me the ratios and see what you come out with . Hp aint cheap. but all the 9-15hp gains are certainly worth the efforts and we have done them all. The eRAM is RIGHT in line with most all mods. the dyno graphs show the gains. The nice thing about the dynoing of the eRAM is that you can take it off for the last run to verify, which we always do!!
Mk
most of us have!
Just looking at ALL the mods, and Ive done most of them all and dynoed as often as I could. we saw this on an 84 4.7 from stock 175hp to modified 243hp. Lets look at the costs of 68hp.
headers 12hp to 188 cost installed $1000
exhaust 12hp to 200 cost installed $700
cams, intake 23hp to 223hp cost installed $1500
fuel regs and tuning 10hp to 233hp cost $420
eRAM 9hp to 242 hp cost $600
then, the big mods, 5 liter short block and euro heads added $4k with labor and thats CHEAP. gains, 242hp to 275hp. add $1000 racing devek headers stage II and get it up around 290hp.
so, you have a calculator, show me the ratios and see what you come out with . Hp aint cheap. but all the 9-15hp gains are certainly worth the efforts and we have done them all. The eRAM is RIGHT in line with most all mods. the dyno graphs show the gains. The nice thing about the dynoing of the eRAM is that you can take it off for the last run to verify, which we always do!!
Mk
Originally posted by Imo000
"What kinda boost am I looking at getting on my 1980 928 with the inline supercharger and the 3.0 electric supercharger??"
somewhere around 1-2 psi...... just barely measurable.
Yes it works, but it's almost statistically insignificant increase.
The B/C ration is very low. B/C = Benefit/Cost
"What kinda boost am I looking at getting on my 1980 928 with the inline supercharger and the 3.0 electric supercharger??"
somewhere around 1-2 psi...... just barely measurable.
Yes it works, but it's almost statistically insignificant increase.
The B/C ration is very low. B/C = Benefit/Cost
03-08-2004, 03:35 PM
#29
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Better hop over here.. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=119151
...and defend yourself as well Mark.
...and defend yourself as well Mark.
03-08-2004, 04:19 PM
#30
Photoshop Bully
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
"The eRam is only on momentarily and occasionally (under WOT) "
Seriously, wouldn't this mean that it is a significant restriction at all other times? Sure you can say the air gets through around the blades as the inrushing air turns them, but there is still a large mass of material obstructing your intake tubes. Other than some dyno sheets I can't seem to read, I don't see this addressed at all. You mention a negative pressure in the airbox that this e-ram eliminates. What is that same reading at 99% throttle w/ 2 unpowered e-rams in the way? Although I enjoy speed, I would say WOT is a tiny fraction of where the go pedal spends its time. I just don't see how something that obstructs the intake for an admitted large amount of time before it is "activated", can not hinder performance.
Seriously, wouldn't this mean that it is a significant restriction at all other times? Sure you can say the air gets through around the blades as the inrushing air turns them, but there is still a large mass of material obstructing your intake tubes. Other than some dyno sheets I can't seem to read, I don't see this addressed at all. You mention a negative pressure in the airbox that this e-ram eliminates. What is that same reading at 99% throttle w/ 2 unpowered e-rams in the way? Although I enjoy speed, I would say WOT is a tiny fraction of where the go pedal spends its time. I just don't see how something that obstructs the intake for an admitted large amount of time before it is "activated", can not hinder performance.
Last edited by tresamore; 03-09-2004 at 04:55 PM.