Speedtoys

You're not being disrespectful, just..out of context.

We're talking about end to end 30-40-50yr old cars in their original form.

Jason89s4

I think it would be a great idea to re-start a sticky thread with a list of Rennlist-928 users willing to put their name as contacts for those traveling through and need assistance, or just a place to park.
Sign me up.
-Jason

Blagave

My apologies...I thought the discussion started out with a question on reliability and Shawn's direction with a LS conversion.....Please disregard my post.

NoVector

Rog.

Wisconsin Joe

Well, the original idea for the thread came from Shawn's suggestion that an LS conversion would be more reliable than the original motor.

While I won't dispute that a well executed LS swap, with a motor that is in good shape (crate motor or proper rebuild) would be reasonably reliable, I would think that a 928 motor that has newly rebuilt ECUs would not be any less so.

Blagave's car is a very nice example, but many (most?) aren't that well done.

I would think that doing a swap that well would cost more than the cost of rebuilding/replacing ECUs, TB/WP, Intake refresh, fuel lines, fuel pump, CE panel and most of the other items that are problematic. Maybe not a full suspension, TT & trans rebuild, but most cars don't need all that.

And the swap only addresses the motor and ECUs. Lots of other 'potential trouble areas' would still need to be addressed to achieve 'reliable' status.

Speedtoys

Agreed!

Most, a significant percent, will have issues at the "interface" layer between 928 and the swap..that will not be community addressable as easily as well.

I think the reliability issue is monstrously overblown.

jpitman2

Re the reliability of newer cars, in my experience the probability of a failure follows a Y=X^2 sort of curve, with a hopefully long flat section in the middle. Problems are highly likely in the bedding in stage early in life, reducing as things settle in, then rising again as age and neglect start to take over. The length of the flat section depends on basic design to a degree, but can be overtaken by poor execution of the fundamentals, or poor specification (of desired life) of items that are bought in from contractors. IMHO the same theory applies again in any area that has recently been worked on , so I tend to be wary of long trips shortly after any major work (belt and alternator last month), building up duration slowly as confidence returns. Common refrainwhen anybody comes here with a problem is "What did you last work on?".
jp 83 Euro S AT 57k

dr bob

The Owners Club maintains a Road Help List that takes care of this nicely. Join the OC and get access to the list and the help you might need on the road somewhere. In the first incarnation, the list was shared only among folks willing to put their own contact info on the list.

Today, I'm loathe to place personal info like all that in a public forum.

Speedtoys

Post up a "help" thread and phone start ringing locally usually.

GregBBRD

"Reliable" has different meanings to different people.

Some people are completely happy with an early car that won't downshift into 2nd or 1st gears, without "crunching". After all, that "crunch" isn't going to keep you from driving to the local 7/11....or even from LA to San Francisco. Sure, that crunch is wearing the engaging teeth off of both the gear and the slider, but that's an issue that can be addressed later, right?

Some people are smart....and know that "gear and skider damage is going to be way more costly to repair, later on, and have the transmission rebuilt as soon as they can.

Power steering pressure hoses and fuel lines are reliable, right up to the point where they are not. Sure, the risk of fire goes up by a big percentage. However, that's why cars have fire insurance, right?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a 928 going down the road with a completely "blown" shock, where the tire can barely keep in contact with the road. They just wear, get less effective at controlling the bump and rebound, causing the car not to "handle" as well.

Same with all the rubber bushings. I've seen dozens and dozens of cars with lower front control arm bushings completely separated, yet the car is still "reliable".It just has ~50% less front "spring" when this occurs.

I get cars in, all the time, with completely broken rear sway bar downlinks. Does that really matter, in terms of reliability? The car still drives down the road, right?

This list of examples can go on and on. Does no A/C make the car unreliable? Does a completely non fumctional PSD keep the car from driving?

I'm not just in the business to make 928's "reliable"...the vast majority drive into my shop, after all.

I'm trying to "improve" the cars....or at the very least, restore them to their original performance potential.

Vast difference between what I'm doing and "reliable".

worf928

In support of your mindset, these are, in the context of my definition above, all things that are "broken" and need to be fixed. Some sooner rather than later. If they are not tended according to a plan you end up with a 928 were so many things are broken that it isn't really driveable even if it will get you home.

Same here. This is exactly the purpose of my 'reliability plan': get the 928 to its original - or better - level of functionality.

Some folks don't understand that it's 'all the little things' (a bushing here, a broken bit of trim, a bit of vibration there, a slight misfire, etc.) that when fixed totally change their perception and enjoyment of their 928.

Christopher Zach

Can a 928 be reliable? Sure. Mine is a daily driver (though I have to rotate it, the 944S, and the 2000 Insight to keep them all driven). However it does require a level of maintenance, which though less than days of yore cars is still more than modern cars.

A bit of history: My first car was a 1971 Mercury wagon with a 427PI engine in it. Back then they would publish "the Hundred thousand mile book" with all the things you had to do if you wanted your car to make it to the golden age mile marker of 100k. That car needed a lot of attention, broke down from time to time, and barely made it to 100k before the engine blew up.

Cars of that era (including my 68 911L, my 74 914, and my dad's 1 owner 68 911L) needed a lot of maintenance and rarely cracked 100k. They needed carbs adjusted, points fiddled, things lubricated, and a lot of regular service to be in daily operation. Going a thousand miles on a trip? Either do a major maintenance before you leave or put it on the Auto Train. Just driving them requires tinkering, plug replacements, and such. Not reliable by any modern means.

By the mid 1980's cars had taken a quantum leap from the carbs and points world of the 60's and 70's. And by the time I got my 944S in 87 it was a car you could hop into, and drive for a year between servicing (aside from oil). There are 7500 and 15k miles things to check and 30k belt replacements but overall those were a once a year sort of thing. Summary: you don't have to check the car over every week, and you can just hop into it and drive 8 hours without needing to get a bunch of small stuff addressed.

The 2002 Sienna and 2001 Prius are a different caliber from that. Granted not high performance cars, but they really are "jump in and go". The Sienna had one sticking throttle valve in 250k miles and the Prius needed the hybrid battery rebuilt at 150k. For decades that was all they needed and some oil. However now they are throwing emissions errors (hint: The P0420 cat error in both of them was fixed by replacing the Coil over plug ignition coils. Those go bad at 175k) but they still have the same damn spark plugs. And when I tried to replace the thermostat on the Sienna last weekend one of the bolt/studs broke off and after looking at how impossible it would be to fix it without pulling the whole engine I decided to junk the thing.

So back to the 928. I bought myself a basket case 2 years ago as a challenge. And barely made it 200 miles from PA to home. It needed a lot of small parts and service, vacuum hoses, bolts loose, wiring screwed up, parking brake exploded, ABS out, all sorts of errors and alerts from its primitive monitoring system. Hoses replaced, things needed to be taken apart and cleaned, that kind of stuff. Took about 4 months, two local tows, and a couple thousand dollars in parts, but the car is now up to snuff. When the AC works and you have no compunctions about tossing a bag into the car and driving 500 miles to a gathering or hopping into it for a trip to work it's pretty reliable.

Problem is doing that sort of grooming on a 928 or 944 is expensive. Pricey parts, specialized service people, and although everything is accessible for the end user to fix it's still a fair bit of wrenching from time to time. As a result most people didn't do this and the little problems all piled up until you the 928 nut bought a "fine" car with a lot of deferred maintenance. So do it and you'll have a reliable car, one with 240k miles (944S) or 120k miles (928S) and no problems driving it every day to work.

hacker-pschorr

+1
The Ferrari world gets ripped on from outside the Ferrari circles for the level of scheduled / routine / preventative maintenance those cars seem to require. I had the pleasure of maintaining a 355GTS over 17,000 reliable miles.
Frankly if we as 928 owners took a page from the 5-7 year maintenance schedule the 355 does (I don't subscribe to the 3-5 year requirement) we might not have threads like this.

They also need to be driven.....hard, responsible but hard. Don't be afraid of the highest edge of the tachometer. But don't run the **** out of it until fully warmed up either.

Well said.
There is a LOT involved with an "LS" swap, and the primary reason such conversions get a lot of flack around here is how "easy" those looking into them make it out to be. It's seen as a cost effective way to modernize a 928, when nothing could be further from the truth - at least the cost effective part. Blagave's conversion is proof positive of that. Take every minute spent on that conversion and multiply that by $100 per hour......it worked for him since he has the skill set to do most, if not all of the fabrication himself.


This is my biggest gripe, the idea early cars are just "known" for that crunch so it's not something that needs (or can be) fixed. All tied to moron mechanics who didn't take the time to setup the clutch correctly and frankly it's not that difficult if I figured out how to do it.

GT6ixer

Also add Colin in Abottsford, BC. That's who a lot of us PNWers go to.

GregBBRD

There's a bit more to the story than just the clutch.

The "Porsche" synchro (used in the 78-84 transmissions is a friction synchro (as all synchros are), but has a unique characteristic. The "slider" continuously is creating friction, the entire duration of the shift on the synchro. The "slower" the gear change, the more wear.

Secondly, there are larger rpm changes from 1st to 2nd and downshifting. The slider has more "work" to do against the synchro than in the higher gears.

Long story short....do a better job of matching rpms and shift these transmissions quickly, and the syncro life goes up by a huge factor.

*Continued below.