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Eliminating/Reducing Lifter Noise?

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Old 09-03-2019 | 05:49 AM
  #16  
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About DLC coating from Bekaert.
http://gearsolutions.com/features/dl...ar-resistance/
Åke
Old 09-03-2019 | 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD
Yes, this is the lightweight lifter I used to use, take apart, and have DLC coated. Beckhart would "reject" about 25% of the ones I sent them, because of "hot spots" under the top coating, caused from grinding them too quickly and getting the lifter too hot.

It got to the point where I'd have to send 50 lifters, in order to be sure I would get 32 lifters back....and a couple of times, this wasn't enough.

I would never use this lifter in the "raw" stste, because of the problem with the hidden "hot spots"......928 cams are way too expensive to mess around with sub par pieces.
Did not know that...

But this is similar to the guys who buy NOS guitar amplifier tubes in bulk, and must test them all for microphonics, shorts, or DOA.

I do not know what their reject rate is, but when you buy from guys/vendors who do this, you are assured of getting quality tubes - and they do cost more as a result.
Old 09-03-2019 | 02:47 PM
  #18  
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VW also has what apprear to be a nitrated lifter, which has some sort of additional internal spring inside, which I believe Colin uses. Apparently requires removal of the additional spring.

I don't use this version, either.
Old 09-05-2019 | 02:00 PM
  #19  
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I experienced a similar issue about a year ago. I had been running Mobile 1 15w-50 for years then one day (following an oil change) my lifters began tapping. I also tried Swepco with no success. What I did learn is that oils have recently been reformulated with even lower zddp. So after some research, I ordered Amsoil Z-Rod 20w-50. Amsoil's high zddp formulation for older, flat tappet engines. All lifter noise stopped with continued success over the last year.
Old 09-05-2019 | 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD
VW also has what apprear to be a nitrated lifter, which has some sort of additional internal spring inside, which I believe Colin uses. Apparently requires removal of the additional spring.

I don't use this version, either.
Correct, I have been using VW Black nitrided lifter. This lifter was designed for the PD TDI engines that saw extreme camshaft and lifter wear. The wear was mostly caused by the camshaft grind used.
Instead of changing the grind VW changed to this lifter and added a spring in it that makes the lifter run around .0014" valve lash.
Once the spring is removed they work the same as the other lifters. Have not had a single issue with them since removing that spring. Roger carries them as well.
Old 09-05-2019 | 08:51 PM
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Randy have you tried Rislone with ZDDP yet? I didn't have luck with Swepco, but the Rislone and the 15W50 Mobil One combo solved it. I have literally had my 928 sit for 5 months straight only to fire it up without a single tick. Worth a try at this point...
Old 09-05-2019 | 11:36 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by hupp
I experienced a similar issue about a year ago. I had been running Mobile 1 15w-50 for years then one day (following an oil change) my lifters began tapping. I also tried Swepco with no success. What I did learn is that oils have recently been reformulated with even lower zddp. So after some research, I ordered Amsoil Z-Rod 20w-50. Amsoil's high zddp formulation for older, flat tappet engines. All lifter noise stopped with continued success over the last year.
Randy:

For what it is worth, I changed your oil last and I changed from the Mobil One 15-50 you have been running for years, to Brad Penn 20/50....which is loaded with ZDDP, hoping that a change might "help" with the lifter issue.

Apparently did not help.

gb
Old 09-10-2019 | 05:05 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by hupp
I experienced a similar issue about a year ago. I had been running Mobile 1 15w-50 for years then one day (following an oil change) my lifters began tapping. I also tried Swepco with no success. What I did learn is that oils have recently been reformulated with even lower zddp. So after some research, I ordered Amsoil Z-Rod 20w-50. Amsoil's high zddp formulation for older, flat tappet engines. All lifter noise stopped with continued success over the last year.
Originally Posted by Mongo
Randy have you tried Rislone with ZDDP yet? I didn't have luck with Swepco, but the Rislone and the 15W50 Mobil One combo solved it. I have literally had my 928 sit for 5 months straight only to fire it up without a single tick. Worth a try at this point...
Originally Posted by GregBBRD
Randy:

For what it is worth, I changed your oil last and I changed from the Mobil One 15-50 you have been running for years, to Brad Penn 20/50....which is loaded with ZDDP, hoping that a change might "help" with the lifter issue.

Apparently did not help.

gb
Sounds like the next step is to try adding a high zinc additive and switching to a lighter viscosity oil.
Old 09-10-2019 | 07:59 PM
  #24  
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no you want the thick stuff in your engine.

you could try the 20W50 Valvoline VR1 racing oil,
it comes in either Dino or SYN. Found at most FLAPS.
Old 09-10-2019 | 08:35 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Mongo
Randy have you tried Rislone with ZDDP yet? I didn't have luck with Swepco, but the Rislone and the 15W50 Mobil One combo solved it. I have literally had my 928 sit for 5 months straight only to fire it up without a single tick. Worth a try at this point...
Certainly worth a try.

The fact that the lifter pumps up, at all, would indicate that it has a piece of some deposit under the ball seat (or a damaged seat/ball), which the oil pressure can overcome, but leaks when the car is shut off.

The additives in Swebco might not be able to dissolve the deposit, but another chemical might.

The price of an oil change and some Rislone is going to be like a "rounding error", compared to any other solution.
Old 09-10-2019 | 08:46 PM
  #26  
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Prad Penn 20w-50 has 1500ppm / 1400ppm Zinc / Phosphorous (ZDDP)
Movile 1 15w-50 has 1300ppm / 1200ppm (which is plenty, especially for a street engine with stock cams & valve springs)

15w-50 is just fine for our engines. I have no idea where this idea started to pop up they need 20w.

Most lifters click due to improper oil (too thin), dirt / debris accumulation causing them to stick, or the lifter is just old / worn out.

ZDDP has nothing to do with lifter noise. If any additive does solve the problem, it did so due to something else in the mixture. The idea is to get some kind of cleaning agent inside the tiny hole in the lifter to work it loose. ZDDP is not a detergent.
Chemicals like ATF "fixing" lifter clicking is because they are much thinner and full of cleaning agents. The hope is these thinner fluids work their way into a stuck lifter and un-stick it.


For those who think just dumping in a huge amount of ZDDP is OK since "more must be better" read this:

https://generalaviationnews.com/2013...-can-hurt-you/
Tests have shown that the amount of wear on a cam decreases as the amount of ZDDP is increased, up to around 1,400 parts per million (PPM) zinc. Above that level, the wear will actually increase due to zinc pitting. So all automotive oils have contained around 1,400 PPM of zinc additives for many years.

Extreme high amounts of ZDDP are recommended for engine break in, and really for engines with aggressive camshafts and super stiff valve springs. Even then you should be using a nigh zinc break in oil, not just dumping in copious amounts of random additives.


More on the dangers of ZDDP additives:

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/...to-save-money/

If you need oil with extra ZDDP, the best procedure is to use oil that already contains the additive mixed in the proper dosage.

Too much ZDDP can do almost as much harm than not enough.

High levels of ZDDP can begin clogging the lubricant-carrying crevices in the cylinder wall, which can then cause the engine to burn oil.

Total Seal’s Keith Jones told us that a few customers who had been using race oil in high-output street engines began to burn oil beyond what they considered normal.

Jones told us his solution was to have the customers try an oil change using a high-detergent diesel oil for roughly 100 to 200 miles. The reason behind this is that detergents tend to strip away ZDDP from the valleys or crevices created in the cylinder wall during the honing process. By removing the excess ZDDP by running a high-detergent oil, the engine’s excess oil use returned to normal. This also illustrates that properly blended performance oils offer a careful balance between detergent levels and ZDDP. Adding ZDDP to the oil changes that careful balance which likely will not produce the desired effect.

Essentially, too much ZDDP can be just as bad as too little.

I took this question to Lake Speed Jr. who is a tribologist (an oil engineer) with Driven Racing Oil and he offered a few more points.

“Mixing an additive into motor oil can cause adverse chemical reactions. ZDDP is acidic in nature and motor oils that contain detergents are basic in nature. As a result, mixing ZDDP into high-detergent oil can cause an acid/base reaction,” Speed Jr. said.
(note from HP - all street oils are detergent in nature. This is where real racing oils come into play: low levels or lack of detergents. Which is also why many racing oils have really high levels of ZDDP. It's not recommended to use a racing oil on the street...and no...Valvoline VR-1 is NOT a true low detergent racing oil.)

As an example, Speed offered the rather dramatic case of what happens when you mix baking soda and vinegar. If you’ve not witnessed this first-hand, the result is a foaming mess. Mixing ZDDP additive with your oil won’t be as dramatic as this vinegar-soda example, but unless you perform a chemical analysis of the oil after mixing, you really won’t know.

“Motor oils have a blend order that keeps reactive additives in the proper order of addition to prevent adverse chemical reactions,” Speed Jr. said. “By introducing an additive to motor oil, the blend order has been altered, and that increases the chance of an adverse chemical reaction.”

As a follow-up, Speed Jr. said that adding ZDDP alters the oil’s actual chemistry.

“Adding ZDDP to motor oil lowers the base number and reduces the service life of the oil,” he said.

The base number to which Speed Jr. is referring is a rating of the oil’s ability to resist corrosion by neutralizing acids that naturally form as a result of combustion. This is especially troublesome for engines that do not run long enough to exceed 212 degrees F of oil temperature. This is the point where the water (and acid) would boil off as a vapor and are eliminated by the PCV system.

This change in the engine oil’s base number means that well-intentioned amateur chemists “splash-blending” ZDDP with engine oil will likely reduce the oil change interval by making the oil more acidic. We’ve seen engines that have been stored with old, acidic oil. The bearings were terribly damaged with deep corrosion pits. So this is another factor to consider.

As you can see, there are several reasons why adding a ZDDP additive to engine oil is a bad idea.

Frankly, this extends to an additive product of any kind for many of the same reasons. The point to remember is that motor oil is a very complex mix of chemicals that are carefully blended to work together. It’s best not to mess with that success.

So if mixing ZDDP isn’t a suitable option, we’re back to using engine oil specifically intended for flat-tappet performance engines not fitted with catalytic converters.
Bottom line, using additives should be a temporary thing when trying to fix something like a stuck lifter.

Most oils (especially the synthetics) in 15w-50 or 20w-50 have plenty of ZDDP for our engines.
Two oils I've confirmed in the necessary weight that do not have the necessary levels of ZDDP are Castrol and Valvoline Conventional.

Almost every oil you can find out the ZDDP level by simply googling it or sending an e-mail to the manufacturer.
Old 09-14-2019 | 04:30 PM
  #27  
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Thanks, Erik.

I'm confident GB has some thoughts on resolving this when I drop the car later this month. The previous mention that replacing the lifters 'wasn't in the budget' is not the case. After spending $30K plus for this stroker motor, new lifters are a 'rounding error' as GB refers to.

Hopefully we'll get this fixed!



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