hoping someone can point me in the right direction regarding my fog lights.

Car is an 85 Euro S

Here is what I am experiencing:

-Rear Fog light does not illuminate, and neither does button when in the "on" position. I am thinking they were disconnected when car was federalized? Bulb is good.. any idea where to check?

-Front fog lights ONLY work when high beams are on. They come on with or without the button being in the "on" position. Button does illuminate when pressed to "on" position. My thoughts are that someone bypassed the switch somewhere.. Any ideas where to check?


All other bulbs work fine including high/low beam head lights. I've found a lot of un-plugged, mis-wired circuits within other systems that I have sorted. This one has me stumped.

I plan on pulling switches from POD next.

TIA


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Oh my. I have been through this.

You have a 'federalized' Euro. God only knows what's been changed, or how.

On the Euro (originally), the inner lights were 'driving lights', tied directly to the high beams. No switch. The outer lights were both marker lights (parking lights) and fog lights (fog light switch). 2 bulbs in the same housing.

On the US model, the inners were fog lights (fog light switch) and the outers were marker lights (parking lights). No driving lights.

What do the outer lights look like? Rectangular with a smooth (more or less) glass lens? Or more square, with a plastic lens that has a diamond pattern on the inside (smooth on the outside, but you can see the pattern)? First one is original Euro, second is US.

I will guess that whoever federalized it simply changed it to US lights, and hooked the US fogs up to the Euro driving wiring.
You can find the wiring by pulling the fender liner and front liner panel (be careful, the alternator cooling hose is attached to the front panel) and seeing what's up in there. Go in with a meter (you have a multimeter, right?) and see what has power with what switch positions. I will guess that you have a pair of unattached wires that get power when you push the fog light switch - Note: Key must be on for the fog lights to work.

If that is what is up, you have a couple choices:

1 - Find a set of euro bumper lights & trim pieces (different from US). Good luck. Not easy to find and not cheap when you find them.
2 - Rig up a set of bulbs, attached to the fog light wiring and install them in the marker lights. I did this for a while, until I found a set of Euro lights. Because the housing & lens are plastic, you can't use incandescent bulbs. They will melt stuff. I went with a standard B12 socket and a LED bulb. I went with the brightest one SuperBright LEDs had. I cut a hole in the back of the marker light housing and fit the extra socket in there. It worked reasonably well.

Rear fog light - It may be that they completely disconnected it when they butchered it.
However, you have to remember that the rear fog will NOT come on (nor will the switch light up) unless the front fogs are on.

On mine, the switch works just fine. I have a Euro rear bumper & fog that I got from Mark a bit ago. Currently at the painter. I am hoping that all they did to my rear fog wiring was cut it off & tuck it up out of the way.
When that's done, all my lights will be back to Euro spec (H4 headlights, Euro bumper lights, rear fog).

Edit to add:

I took a quick look at your profile. It looks like you have Euro bumper lights. The outer looks like a Euro fog, not a US marker. Does it light up dimly when you turn the lights on (either headlights or parking lights)?

 

Rear lights only work when front do.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write all of this. Yes, I have a multimeter, so checking some wires is no problem for me to do.

I didnt think to see if they just cut the wires in back of rear fog.. that would be too easy eh?

Regarding the front lights.. yes, the outter set do illuminate when I have my parking lights on.

PS-Ive' heard the euro lights are hard to source.. one of my fog lights has a small stone chip but it is what it is........

 

You are welcome. I'm stuck waiting, so I have nothing better to do at the moment.

You have Euro bumper lights, right?

Outers light up dimly when parking lights are on?

They should get a lot brighter when you hit the fog light switch. Again, inners are driving lights, tied directly to the high beams. As a side note, Euro H4 headlights and Euro driving lights are very effective on dark roads. It's been suggested that they could be used for signalling the ISS if you got the front of the car high enough.

Since it looks like the bumper lights haven't been butchered, the next place I'd look would be the fog light relay. According to my chart (courtesy of Alan), it's relay XIII (8). It's also not a standard relay like the starter, fuel pump, ect.

 

Hi Joe,

Yes Euro lights all around. The outters are dim only with parking and do not get any brighter when switch is turned on..

there is a relay in there. not sure which.. I will take a pic and post some photos later. The Euro driving light option sounds very cool.. I'll leave the inners as is and try to get them (and the rear) working.

It would be nice to use them at dusk and not have to use the main headlights when they are not needed.

 

Got to dig into the fog light issue a bit deeper last night after work.

Here is what I found out:

-The euro fog/drivers lights are in tact from behind and wires not cut. The dim parking lights as I mentioned work fine. I tested the fog light bulbs and they are good.

-I pulled the front fog light switch and tested it with a multi-meter. it worked fine, and illuminated when pressed in. It also closed the circuit to activate the bulbs.. so no issue there.

-the rear fog switch is illuminated dimly only when dash lights are. When depressed, the light goes OUT. I didnt explore any further there as others have said the fronts need to work for the back to turn on.

-I then headed down to the CE panel to inspect relays as I heard nothing clicking when the switches were pressed. I "thought" I pulled the right relay XIII, but now see after blowing the pics on computer I perhaps pulled the wrong one? Anyway, the one I pulled is a longer black relay and doesn't have the
"53" stamped on it like many of the others.

I also noticed under this relay, the 10 pin socket was empty. I checked for polarity there, but all were dead. I also checked to see if the plug for this socket was hidden somewhere and did not find it.

I also checked the fog light fuse, and it was good.

Pics attached. any insight would be sincerely appreciated.

Again, the car is an 85 Euro with 5 speed.

Thanks

 

Ok, that's really, really, weird.

You are correct that the open position in the last pic is NOT XIII (13). It's XV (15). There are little pointers by each Roman numeral, and the pointer for XIII points to the left, at the 53 relay in the spot. Which isn't a fog light relay.

Get a correct fog light relay and you may have solved the issue.

But that's not the weird part.

You have a 5 speed, right? (hard mistake to make).

Position XV is the kick down. And the 'bigger' relay you show matches the number on my chart for the kick down relay.
That spot should be empty for a 'non-Rogerbox' car. I was under the impression that putting a relay in the kick down spot in a manual car would cause a no-start. Or maybe it's that putting a 53 relay in the kick down spot would cause the no-start.

Hopefully one of the real experts will chime in.
I don't claim to be one. I've just been through this mish-mash with my car.

Also, Alan put together a list of all the CE panel layouts. Having the correct one is important, because they differ year to year. Having one is very important, so that you know what's what and where.

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...all-years.html

The only thing is that I can't seem to find the Euro diagrams. I didn't open up any of them to see if the Euro was there. I know he did the Euros because;
A - I helped with it.
B - I have one for mine.

 

Joe,

I saw those little arrows this morning when I blew the pic up on my PC. My eyes are not what they were. I just ordered the relay from Roger along with a jump post cover

I'm not sure why there is a kick down relay in there either. The car runs and drives just fine. Nothing surprises me with the wiring mishaps I've found though..

Have a terrific 4rth

 

If the lenses on both of the sets of bumper lights are glass they are the euro versions and weren't fully federalized.

Both the standard clear euro code and french yellow lenses are available new on ebay. That's how I got my french yellow sets for my driving and fog lights.

P.S. US glass lenses fit on the euro fog lights without issue.

With how you describe how they activate someone has definitely switched up the wiring. You just need to plug them into the correct connectors.

As for the rear fog light, they either disconnected the switch or unlugged the light behind the bumper. Both fairly easy to get at fortunately.

As for the kickdown relay, leave it disconnected as it will cause a no start eventually because it affects the ezk computer but telling it to retard timing when the auto trans is shifting.

 

(In order, not bothering to quote the post)

Well, he said he has the Euro lights. And the pics in his profile look like it.

Good to hear you can get the lenses, how expensive are they? The last I looked, new Euro lenses were still pretty steep.

The housings for the Euro fog & driving, and US fog lights are all the same. Stuff can swap back and forth easily (lenses, adjusters, ect). They may no longer be correct, but they will work.

I don't really agree with that. The driving lights work the way they are supposed to (no switch, tied to high beams). The fogs simply aren't working. With a 53 relay in spot XIII, they won't. He needs the correct fog light relay. If they don't work after that, then something else is up. But since the lights weren't 'properly federalized', I'd guess the wiring wasn't messed with (which would be reallynice).

Again, disagree. He said the switch lights up dimly when the dash lights are on. And then goes out when pushed. That's what it's supposed to do when the fogs are not on. So, again, until he gets a correct fog light relay in there and sees what's up, I don't want to decide anything is wrong.

As I noted above, I was under the impression that a relay in the kickdown spot would cause a no start (all of the time). And, to be just a bit pedantic, the Euro S2 (84-86) has an EZF ignition. No knock sensors (EZK has them).

 

US calls our lights "fog lights" and in Europe they are auxiliary high beams, otherwise known as driving lights. They have 2 spade connections and are the same US or ROW, just different lenses.

The Euro fogs ,what we call driving lights and have 3 spade terminals, (the names are all per PET) are a completely different housing compared to the US marker lights.

They also need different trim to fit along with a new front end harness if converting from US lights.

Most likely they just disconnected the main spade for the euro fog so that it only sends power to the small 10 watt bulb in the housing.

There is a 3rd spade that needs to be connected along with an H3 bulb fitted to get the fogs to work correctly.

Either that or they just left the bulb out of the housing and said screw it lol.

 

Yes. US marker lights (outer) are much more square & have a plastic lens. One small bulb tied to parking lights.

Euro fogs (outer) are the same rectangle as the inners, glass lensed, with 2 bulbs. One small, tied to the parking lights. One big, tied to the fog light switch.

Because the outer lights are different sizes and shapes, the US & Euro headlight trim piece is very different.

But most of this is moot because he's clearly said that he has Euro bumper lights.

And that he looked inside, the wiring seems ok and the bulbs in the outer fog lights work.

A couple questions for the OP:

How long have you owned the car?
Have the lights ever worked correctly?
Did you (or your mechanic) install the relays in 13 & 15 or were they that way when you got it?

 

Got my fog lamp relay from Roger today.

I plugged it in, and wooolah! Front and rear fogs! It looks like all the dealer did during the federalization was pull the relay. thanks for the tips everyone.

now to get the nasty gas leak fixed. one step forward, and two steps back.

 

Ha!!!!!!

Glad it was that simple.