heinrich

BC, love Death Race 2000 though no children or animals were hurt ;-) Jim H, seen the ad for the lottery (I think) where the guy needs surgery cause he has money up the wazoo? MOOHAAHAHAH :-) Pictures Jim with traffic tickets and bills up the wazoo ...

Tony

Lets say you buy a gun and it blows your head off?

Lets say you crash your car talking on your cell phone?

Let say you buy an airplane and crash it due to your a lapse in judgement on your behalf.??

Lets say you drink too many beers at your best friends house and crash you car into a wall.?


You'd sue somebody wouldn't you?...a manufacturer...a company...a best friend. LAUGH, it happens all the time. Why are insurance rates so high, medical malpractice insurance, liquor insurance..etc etc



honestly guys, I absolutely love this country to death , but this is a classic example/topic to me which shows what i've already come to the conclusion of a several years ago about this country.
Society in general here is in a SAD, SAD, GREEDY, SELFISH state.
We are all guilty of it too some extent, some more than others, some not.

doesn't ANY ONE HAVE ***** ENOUGH ANY MORE TO SUCK UP TO SOME RESPONSIBILITY AND RISK ON THEIR OWN BEHALF!

SUE SUE SUE SUE...MONEY ..MONEY...MONEY, IM GONNA SUE HIS A$$, YOUR GONNA PAY FOR THIS, YOUR GOING TO HEAR FROM MY ATTORNEY...yadda yadda

thats what it all boils down to in the end. MONEY and PAYBACK. "ME"


IMHO, just look what ANDY and TIM and others have done. They have invested gaawwd knows how much of their money and time in all this with good faith and intent towards all off us.
Then this topic gets posted.

Sad..but typical of the way i see things happening of late.

Personally, id hate to see it, but maybe ANDY and TIM should no longer sell there kits.....and,.S&W their guns...Sanyo their phones........ Sam Adams their beer. WE ALL SUFFER because OF IT.

Granted there is a line where negligence and idiocy cross and for some cases it shamefully and almost embarrassingly has to be deicided in a court room at great expense. IMHO, this is absurd.

yeah im pissed and yes im on a soap box.

My .02...and my last post on this topic as it will spiral out of control soon im sure!

Jim_H

Pictures Jim with traffic tickets and bills up the wazoo ...

H.,
Hopefully this isn't an erotic picture for you.

heinrich

Tony, if we all close our eyes to the fact that liability exists, maybe it will go away :-P Yes I know you don't mean it that way and don't shoot me. I'm saying, doing as you say and stopping production will not help me or you, and certainly not Andy, Tim, International, Specialists or Devek. On the flipside, those buggars are everywhere, the sue-happy ones, and as Big Dave said above it is cheap, easy and MANDATORY to protect yourself against them, so that the rest of us can continue to enjoy your products .... Difference between the entities you list below and Andy is that Sanyo already has disclaimers and is already covered .... I wouldn't send a product out the door without that.

>>>Tony: "Personally, id hate to see it, but maybe ANDY and TIM should no longer sell there kits.....and,.S&W their guns...Sanyo their phones........ Sam Adams their beer. WE ALL SUFFER because OF IT."

John..

There is not a company out there that will warranty your engine after a bolt on like that. Wishful thinking at the best....

The guys who make such bolt-ons have to plan for the occassional simpleton that will throw 87 octane in the car on a 100 degree day and go full throttle out on the highway.

This is why you don't see factory performance cars with "on the wire" tuned high HP numbers, because the average Joe knows nothing about how to be sure he isn't doing something wrong....so safety and reliability gets lumped into the equation.

PorKen

Woa, this post grew quick!

Ease up on VU, I'm pretty sure he's just playing devils advocate.

...

As far as I can tell, Andy is not making a real profit off of his kits. (Can you call it a charity?)

I don't know if it is safe, in a liability sort of way. He is definately not charging enough to cover product insurance, and should not be advertising publically for his kits.

I worry myself about selling my gizmos...

Jim_H

Cheap / Easy ?? I didn't see that. In civil court there are no guarantees, period.
Incorporation probably the smartest way to go.

hacker-pschorr

Tony - Well said.

The Eagles (of all bands) said it best:

i turn on the tubewhat do i see,
a whole lot a people cryin' "don't blame me"
they point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
spend all their time felin' sorry for them selves
victim of this, victim of that
your mommas too thin; and your daddys too fat

get over it
get over it
all this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit

you say ya haven't been the same since ya had your little crash
but you might feel better if they gave you some cash
the more i think about it, ol' billy was right
let's kill all the lawers- kill 'em tonight
you don't wanna work you wanna live like a king
butt the big bad world doesn't owe you a thing

get over it
get over it
ya don't want to play then you might as well split
get over it, get over it

it's like going to confession every time i hear you speak
your makin' the most of your losin' streak
some call it sick, but i call it weak
yeah yeah yeah

yeah you drag it around like a ball an' chain
you wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
you wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
ya bitch about the present and blame it on the past
i'd like to find your inner child an' kick it's little ***

get over it
get over it
all this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
get over it, get over it
get over it
get over it
it's gotta stop some time so why don't you quit
get over it,get over it
get over it

John..

"LLC"

Jim_H

Porken,

LOL, in rereading his post I think it was a hypothetical, curiosity type question. Hopefully Andy has himself covered and the price after this thread doesn't go up by more than 4-5k.

ViribusUnits

It's not me. I'm very much for the idea of "You screwed up, you eat the cost." and have eaten my fair share. Btw, that gets expensive quick.

I'm rather worryed about some of our folks, being small timers. I've always been told that small timers stay out of this sort of thing because of the liability. I'm rather curious how they're protecting themselves.

bcdavis

I'm just looking at the whole "Projekt928/Munck" situation. Where most people here felt like the guy got screwed for a lot of $$$ for a kit, installation, new GTS engine rebuild, etc, etc... There were a lot of people implying that he should be sued for his negligent business practices. So I know that within the 928 community, there are people who can feel like they got ripped off, and not always on the price of the kit. But that they bought it, and it did not work, killed the engine, needed a rebuild, etc.... And all because they feel that the kit was improperly designed, or installed. Now in the case of the MURPH kits, and Andy's kits, they may be better, but the same risks are there. As Jonh said, "Some idiot will put 87 octane in the car on a 100 degree day..." That is exactly the kind of think that can happen, or just something done incorrectly on the tuning, or installation... I'm TOTALLY for these kits, and the people that do them. All I am saying, is that they need to be very careful with how they market the kits. I'm not even talking about the legal side of it. I'm talking about making sure that anyone who bolts one to their car, is prepared to blow the engine. They need to be sure that the person is ok with that, and knows it might happen. And that it may be something simple, or beyond the control of the person who made the kit. Maybe a manifold will have a crack, or flaw in the casting, and it will develop a catastrophic vaccuum leak at full throttle, or something bizzare like that. Who the hell knows? I just do not like the idea of people bolting these kits on very expensive GTS's, GTs, or really nice cars, if they do not have the extra cash to deal with the possible loss of their engine, or their car. Only people who know these are toys, and that they might break, should be able to play. Too many people hear the words, "Bolt on 200 horsepower in one weekend!" "Easy! Reliable! Simple!" And they think that there is no "real" risk to their car. Because it has been tested, and installed, and no problems so far... As long as people realize that there *are* risks, and that NO ONE but themeslves are responsible... As long as they know that, they won't sue. But I think too many people are going on and on about how reliable the kits are, and someone is going to make a mistake, and blow up their engine, and blame it on the kit. I just think they should be sure that any potential buyers are aware of the risks. I think those looking for kits for 16v cars are especially vulnerable. Because those cars are not that expensive, the engines are older, and more likely to have problems with old head gaskets, etc... But people want more power so damn much, they will ignore all common sense, and bolt something on their car, without taking the risks into account.

Lizard928

I have to agree with Tony the americans are way to quick to call the lawyer, yes for tickets it is a good thing, or if you have proof what a mechanic had done to your car had caused the damage, or that a part that had been installed had caused the defect EVEN when it was installed correctly.

the only way I could see that happening is if say the intake manifold that andy is making has a serious flaw in it and it all of a sudden just disintigrates getting sucked into the intake scoring the cyl walls and pistons beyond repair, the chances of this ever happening are nil

Jim_H

I think Jim B said it best. The best pre purchase agreement/disclaimer I have seen yet.

SteveM928

No. An insurance company makes money the same way every other company in the world does. They charge their customers more than it costs them for what they provide. Look at how much some insurance companies are worth and it will give you a good idea of how that works out for them.

How can you make any money doing that? As long as attorneys keep making a lot of money of of suits, they're going to keep being filed. How many times have you seen where a class action suit is filed and won for very large amounts of money against a large entity on behalf of a large number of "victims"? The settlement is divided up among the large number of "victims", minus the attorneys fees. Each individual "victim's" share ends up not being enough to cover the cost of a Happy Meal, while the attorney(s) filing the suit received millions of dollars.

I'd say that Andy's and Tim's supercharger stuff would be treated the same way a stroker crank, pistons, a timing belt, or any other part on a car would be. Actually I'd think that their liability could be reduced even below that of many of those other parts. Since the kits aren't certified as smog legal, they're being sold for "off road use only". Basically race stuff. There's an awful lot of race stuff that caries no warranty at all, and I'd say the same thing if I were selling these kits. If an engine blows up on the track, it was racing and no warranty of any kind applies. If it blew up on the street, I sure wouldn't want to be in court stating that I was operating my car on public roads, violating federal emissions laws with parts that I put on the car knowing that they were violating those laws. I doubt the EPA would be very happy with you thumbing your nose at them, and doing it in court in front of a judge on top of it.

This thread does bring up some interesting questions though. I think that all of this lawsuit stuff is ridiculous, and know that much of the rest of the world laughs at us because of it. If I answer a question or post some advice here to help someone replace their timing belt, am I going to be sued if that engine blows up several thousand miles later? Is Rennlist responsible as well? Trust me, if they thought there was money to be made filing a suit like that, some attorney would file it.