drnick

you guys really are too funny!

BC

...? Thats what sequential and trimed individual cylinders are for JOHN. Have you even READ the books we talk about on here? Sequential Vs Batch injection. Duty cycle control? Yes, a huge injector is needed. Because I will still be running it at ~65% duty cycle at whatever power level I get to. Thats the great thing about efi's like DTA. Control. Drivability vs high end power? When you go past MILD BOOST levels, lets see how great that split second "**** controller" works.

LISTEN AND READ. I was talking about driving YOUR car the way that I plan on driving mine. DE's, POC gatherings. I was speaking to how much your car could take under EXTREME drving conditions, not a sunday cruize. The point is lost on you I see.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I so didn't it to go this far, as it always does. You take a critical assessment of the technology taht you use, as well as an assessment of the technology you continue to flout misconceptions about, and take it personally. You then decide that you will respond with personal-or-project-related attacks on your assessor. If you don't like your stressfull full time job then you can quit. If you didn't want to do the motor during the time that you found your home and got married (a miracle woman in her own right), then fine. I don't give a rat's a$$ if you bolted it together over night while hanging upside down and pissing gold. It HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH your holly-holly NIKASIL OR MY SLEEEVING PROCESS IDEALS. Do you know how big or small my wallet is? Do you have any info on anything that you **** and moan about above? Nope. So you would like to assume that you know me from what I post here about my project and my life? Don't try.
Simply STOP POSTING MISCONCEPTIONS about YOUR OWN PROCESS and others with information that is either erroneous or totally un-substantiated.

I won't even touch this for how infantile and un-informed it sounds.

This was noted, but the style manifold is still not the best solution, and to say you don't need properly constructed tube header system simply shows how uninformed you really are. The log style was used for space considerations, and it is a LARGE compromise to say the very least.

Your statements above are subjective (like they always are). Why would I want all my boost at 3k? Did I say that was my process? Like I said, I'm not pulling stumps, I am trying to accellerate, and in an S4, When I shift at full throttle, I am going from around 4 or 4.5k to redline, whatever that may be. What the hell does 3k do for me? At 85mph in fifth, I am at just above 3k. I can then down shift and get to 4k or more.

I really hope your kidding with this name thing. Would you like it if I called you Jan? What about Mark? Its the same thing.

I sure don't. I never said anything about any dyno process at all. I simply stated some extrapolations from fact so show what boost I could have at redline. A Centrifugal SC will give max boost, if geared properly, at redline, and will biud lineraly from 1k until then. I like that. Also, in Socal, I'd rather not have two heat soaked lumps of iron heating up my engine compartment, and bruning up my oil thanks.

This again is so laughable. Go read the books some of us expouse here. Porche did a test (with a whipple I believe) that explained our points. Why don't YOU go and read.

Lags car is lags car. I think he may be somehwta happy with his acceleration and power levels. "Glows read and night"? I'd rather not have anything glowing red hot at night thanks. Heating up my air-charge. Nope. I'll pass on that. Thanks for the info though.

Streetable and reliable. I understand we have strayed a bit here, but only to reign in your misconceptions, personal innuendos, and subjectifications. (let me help you on that big word there Jan - Subjective
Reliable is a bore that will not baloon under boost (steel and NOT aluminum), and also an engine compartment that does not "Glow red at night.

Tony

Kids..kids..kids...now, now!

BTW...EVERYONE PLEASE MARK THE calenders FOR THE '04 OWNERS CONVENTION..so we can all meet...have some beer and laugh at all this!

So....

About this coating stuff?

bcdavis

I know it gets silly at times, and competitive, etc...

All I know, is that prior to all this MURPH stuff, and all the battles with Devek, John, etc, we did not have people out there doing this hot-rod stuff on their 928s... You had the option of stock, or a $20,000+ Devek motor... Now we have tons of people out there building engines, intakes, engine management, superchargers, etc... We all win with this competition, and learning, and sharing of information. If someone wants to build a motor, I bet both John, Brendan, and others, will all offer help and advice on how to meet their goals...

My only hope, is that someone who is on John's side about the turbo thing, will make a turbo kit, or build an insane turbo motor, etc... Just to prove the point. No matter which method produces more rwhp, we still all win, by the further development of forced induction technology for the 928...

Competition will always come down to a "put up or shut up" statement...

No one really cares about how "reliable" someone's 300RWHP turbo car is...
That's great that John has a nice, low-boost, daily driver that works well.
But most of us are only interested in the 400/500+ rwhp cars...

I am guessing that we will see an 800rwhp 928 in the next 2 years.
And I doubt it will be normally aspirated.

So that is progress in my book.

Even if the "competition" can get personal, and harsh at times...

As long as the cars get faster, it's worth it!

porshhhh951

wow, this is great! lol.

I would be very interested in a turbo kit for the 928 as my dad owns a s4 model. I always tell him how much more effecient turbo's are and how much more power they make at a lower rpm. But, the fact is that there isint a kit out there, No one has really tested this thing out for an extended period of time. Sorry for the offtopic comment's I would just really like to see a turbo kit for 928's. I love turbo's and since I am thinking of getting a s4 this would be very helpful for me. 928's are badass car's. I have driven his car alot. Including come cross country trip's and I tell you I am impressed. 110-120mph for a couple of hundered miles until the tank is empty and not one problem. I love it. I just wish 928's were faster that's why I would like to find a turbo kit for them. He got kinda mad when I could beat him with me stock except for 13psi of boost. And now I would kill him in a race. He is thinking about sc, and stroker kit's. It will be interesting to see how fast his s4 get's with some mods.

Tony

FWI guys this "porshhhh951" has some great videos posted. Hes smokes quite a few cars. Lurk the 951 boards now and then. Some great info and quite entertaining at times.

Porshhhh..i know your dad has a 928, you told me that. Is he a aircraft mechaninc/supervisor?? With AMR? Just trying to put a face with the name.

If your dad wants to SC his car show him the Dyno charts from Lags or Andy Keel. The potential is definitely there and its only just being tapped!

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=97863/

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ight=goridesno

John..

Brendan, allow me to appologize for not spelling your name properly, completely my fault...

You should get the car running before you make power or reliability claims. I know I did the same, but my numbers were about on the money when all was said and done. You claim the Nikasil is likely to fail on boost, you make claims you know nothing about. Talk with the engineers at JE and they will tell you how much better the Nikasil is and how they steer people that way. It is actually as good as it gets for long term reliability with their pistons.

We have seen the stories on here of slipped sleeves and leaking head gaskets on sleeved 928 motors, granted these were not done properly. I'm sorry you will have to run 20 lbs of boost to make what you need to make up the middle. The centrifugal is still a peak boost at peak RPM device, it is that simple and can not be disputed.

Sorry, the PSC 1 is a fully programmable 2D map, you must be thinking of the ARC2 or ARC1. The PSC1 is far from a band-aid and my air fuel ratios are right in the range. Mark at SS is actually a very intelligent guy, you should give him a call sometime.

Long runner headers on a turbo car are subject to cracking especially in stainless, great if you want to race and repair, but for the street I'd take a simple manifold any day of the week. I guess that all production turbo cars have crappy manifolds as well....

No, there is no single turbo kit available....yet...

You want to talk about misinforming people on here... Misinformed is anybody who would actually fall for the belief that a centrifugal blower will outperform a turbocharger lb. for lb. of boost. Parasitic loss, low mid range boost, excessive throttleing, etc., etc. If these were such great and reliable devices for boosting, Porsche would be using them and I'd bet diesel trucks would be too. Forget all these dyno pull sheets, that is not real world and the dyno-jet is far from loading the car like the road or a load dyno does. Such a common misconception, assuming the glowing turbine section substantially heats up the intake charge....wrong again.

BC...We all should care about reliability, otherwise just drop a 454 in your 928 and go about your drag racing.

Maybe you guys should all move to Germany and sell these ideas to Porsche because they obviously don't know what they are doing.

My point on mentioning the busy schedule was in that I actually finished the project rather than spending my time on here listing out what I was going to do for the last 9 months. Talk is cheap for sure.

Jeez, I mean really, just finish the damn car already, until then don't make claims about something that doesn't even run.

bcdavis

As I said, it all comes down to:

"Put up, or shut up..."

People who talk the talk, but cannot show anything for it, have no way to back up their points.

After the battle of words hits a peak, someone will undoubtedly say, "Prove it!"

And as far as the 454... We are talking about taking a high-speed, high power car, and making it even more powerful on the highway... When you talk about top speeds, and acceleration, I think it will all come down to horsepower. Our cars all have about the same shape. So as far as who will out-accelerate who, I do not care who has the most reliable motor. It's all about who is left in the dust. And I do not care how reliable your 300rwhp car is, a 500 or 600 rwhp car will leave you in the dust. You can talk about reliability all you want, but a reliable, 300rwhp 928 is really not that impressive to most people. It's great you have an extra little bit of acceleration when you need it. But the same could be said for someone with a 50hp shot of NOS. I agree that turbos are pretty awesome. I just don't think you will ever be able to argue that point with a low-boost setup like yours. Someone will always tell you to put up, or shut up. No one is really going to care that much that your car lasts 15 more years. So do all the stock 928s. A reliable car, with a few extra horsepower is really not that impressive. It may be fun for you, in daily driving. That's great. But when you chime in on the "horsepower war" threads, no one is going to respect your accomplishments, because the numbers do not back it up. Once someone with an s4 engine and twin turbos hits the streets, then maybe they will be able to argue that their setup is superior to centrifugal superchargers. But you will always have a hard time making your case... It's all talk, regardless if it is Brendan, or you, until the put an 800 hp engine on the street, and prove what they are talking about...

porshhhh951

holy sheit!!! 512rwhp niiiiiiiiiice
I read the post about you racing that bike. It sounds like he couldn't shift that well...but, for you to not only stay outta front of him but, pull is quite amazing. I havent tried to really race a bike from down low yet. I did race one on the i90 tollway we went from around a 100(I was passing him on my way home from work and I guess he thought he would speed up) anyway it was obvious that he was in a high gear cause when he downshifted he pulled out pretty bad. He was about 10 or 11 car's in front of me by about 130-140mph....but, then after that something strange happened cause I started to catch up to him. I caught him about 160mph and by 170mph I had a nose out on him. My friend was way in front of us(the reason I was speeding in the first place was to catch up to him) and we split him going about 165-170mph...he said it was the scariest thing he had ever seen. He said his car moved around a little after we passed.lol. Anyways I really don't consider this a kill because if the biker had been ready and in the right gear I would have never caught him. Aside from my high speed test run's on the tollway at 3.a.m. this was the fastest I had ever been in my car. I must say I am really impressed with your ride. My father will be happy to hear about your number's as well since he is going to sc his s4 as well.

Hey tony! thanks for the complement's man. You have always said nice things about my kill video's. I always appreciate the warm comment's. Oh and to answer your question no my dad isint a airline mechanic. He own's Discount Telephone system's. He also has worked for Southwestern Bell for 25 year's. We were however in Vegas in june for a vacation. Stayed at the Ventian. It was great. I might be planing another trip out their sometime...and it would be great to hookup over a drink or something. Anyways I am never on this board but, since I am planing on buying a s4 or gt I guess I need to start. See you on the 944turbo turbo s board tony!

BC

This issue here originally had nothing to do with anyone stating any horsepwer or torque claims. It had to do with, if we can revisit the top here, some very old, and very tired misconceptions about different methods of rebuilding a 928 motor or any other motor for that matter with aftermarket or "production-like" solutions to bore-walls-matieral, and indeed the whole bore itself.

An original statement was made:
And I tried to push back the tide of misconceptions and misinformation that came in this, and subsequent posts by "Jan..."

"Jonny..." wasthe first one to state horsepower as a sticking point. I was simply talking about material strength and methodology.

The "put up or shut up" has nothing to do with the original conversation here...

BC

Its that whole "The human body makes a horrible missile" thing. Areodynamics, I would tend to believe, were not that great for him and his bike.

Nice videos by the way. Do me a favor and try and find a viper. I'd like to see that one.

bcdavis

Yeah, but when people start arguing about engine technology, and rebuilding techniques, it always comes down to a discussion about what works, and what doesn't, and which design can handle the most power, and the most abuse...

But it is all talk, and all words, until someone builds it, and proves that it works.

John's setup works fine in a low-boost car.

That's great.

It shows people that his plating technique is a good option to consider when they want to use pistons other than the stock ones...

But when it comes to sleeving, people will have their doubts, until you do it, and it works...

RE: Racing a bike:

Yes, aerodynamics on a bike are quite poor.
Off the line, it is all about a bike's light weight, and high power.
Up to 100 mph, it is still mostly about the fact that when a bike hits the throttle,
it is able to launch that lightweight vehicle far ahead, without effort...
But once it gets into the triple digits, it starts to fight against the air.
And when it is nearing it's top speed, the amount of power is the
same, but the resistance gets to be more and more. So it really starts
to lose ground. The huge acceleration advantage is not there.
That is why that MURPH 928 beat a bike on the freeway at high speeds.
But any other time, the weight advantage is huge, in terms of acceleration.
Unless you have a really light car, with AWD, it will be hard to beat a bike off the line.

Tony

So..anyone have any good info on the skirt coatings


Hey John(porshhhh951)....Well, i wish i could say that was MY dyno chart and MY story but the credit for that goes to another lister , call sign "Lagavulin"..aka Lags. At this point i could only wish to have the sort of power Lags, Murphy and Andy have from there SC's. Many of us do.
My day WILL come

As i say to anyone on the board, you get out to Vegas, drop me an email!





"four ten gears....fffffffour ten gearrrrrs" love it.

porshhhh951

lol oh my god.....that intro is going to haunt me forever...lol. atleast I didn't say anything about the FireHawk. Of course he tried to tell me he was stock...lol. Yeah right. 345 crank hp in a 3500lb car isint going to run within a couple of car's of me. About the viper I tried racing a black rt10 once on i90 but, his gf or wife was with him and I got the impression she didn't want him racing. He was cool and gave me the thumbs up but, he never ran. I also tried running a 996tt but, the guy looked 60 and didnt even look over at me. Some people are easier to race than other's. I run vette's and trans-am's, turbocharged import's cause those guy's are all around. It's rare to run into a viper driven by someone young and willing to race. You find me a viper willing to run on the tollway and I will be happy to race and film it. Although when the car is back out I do have a very imortant zo6 run scheduled. I promised the guy's on my board I would race one beat it and get it on film.

BTW tony I don't know if I ever told you this but, I love your avator! I mean just awesome.

John.

No, put up or shut up has to do with finishing a project instead of talking about finishing a project...

BC...show me an M28.15, 4.5 liter with stock heads, cams, intake and throttle body making more power.... I didn't think so. These comparisons between 5.0 liter 32V cars and 4.5 liter 16 valve cars are completely meaningless. Those "few extra" ponies you refer to amount to nearly twice what the car came with stock. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is impressive.

Trust me, you would not want to mess with a nicely equipped twin turbo 928 S4. There is a lot more to the dynamics of the car than a peak HP number, but as usual people make decisions on a marketing number.

Re on the bores, do what you all want to do and spend as much as you want to spend. If we ever see a finished car then we will all know...