BC

Okay, so close to 5.8 liters with my best case scenario.

I was told by one place that the machinging would be 600 dollars. That may or may not be the case.

John..

Brenden,

I appreciate your approach to this, but if in fact the Iron sleeving was far superior to making power I would think we would see it in NASCAR and Formula 1, not to mention all of Porsches new line-up including the Carrara GT....correct me if I am wrong, but this is a "cost doesn't matter" exercise by Porsche Engineering. Their engineering is far better than that of a couple of drag racing guys that decide to make sleeves for a living in sunny California.

I checked into the sleeves and they were waaaay too costly, and Darton could not hold more than +/- 0.005" on the OD tolerance. 0.005" is garbage tolerance with today's CNC equipment. I was looking to do a stepped sleeve for my engine, but dropped the whole idea quickly.

So, 650 HP, what the hell will you do with all of that power? You would be better off to spend the money you are dropping on sleeving and all this crazy internal machining madness and skip the centrifugal blower and mount a turbocharger or two on it instead. Yes Lag I know the log-style manifolds can't make any power, right?

I did the Nikasil and JE setup for $2,200 and that included new Goetze rings and piston pins as well as all the shipping. The block plating was $800 with the additional $200 covering the shipping to and from Wisconsin. I don't worry about deck plates or sleeves moving and I don't worry about head gasket failure because of differing CTE of the materials. I sure as hell don't worry about a detonation blast because I'm tuned to avoid it.

Building for detonation, that is just plain stupid, and is like using a band-aid when you need stitches in the ER. You are solving a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Lag,

Maybe you can explain the superior nature of sleeving to NASCAR engine builders, Formula 1 race teams and the fine engineering staff that works at Porsche? Never asked, but are you an engineer?... because you talk like you are the word on all of this stuff. I'd think with all this talk of boosting, you guys would recognize that Nikasil is much less likely to stick a piston while up on boost.

This post is destined to become another "I can post the most powerful 12 second inertia dyno sheet". It just never ends. Total up the $$ spent to sleeve and compare to the plating...it will be close to 2X the cost.

B.T.W. The Nikasil is doing just fine with over 6,000 turbocharged miles.

abduln

John:

I can't spend a lot of time commenting on your post because I am work. However , I just want to point out that you can't weigh the validity of technology based on what NASCAR and F1 use. In NACAR they don't use fuel injection, artificial aspiration, variable valve timing, etc... Of course, all of those technologies are considered advanced and modern, but the rules just don't allow it to allow for smaller scale of economy.

In F1 the demands of the engine are different than in typical motorsports, and the engine builders have very specific requirements which cause them to make the choices they make.


In general, there is nothing wrong with properly sleeving a block and there is nothing wrong with properly plating a block. Either done incorrectly will lead to hole in your wallet, and either done properly will work well with a similar cost in the grand scheme of things.

For me, I desire a bigger bore, so I will consider dry sleeving my block and welding in deck plates. If I decide on keeping the same bore, put wanted an aftermarket piston, I'll go with plating. Both solutions work.

Regards,
Abdul

John..

Okay, so you sleeve with a totally cast iron tower, what piston to wall will you run for a boosted motor with an aftermarket forged piston?

0.004", or more? With huge wall clearances you will accellerate the wear, that is the benefit of the Aluminum bore....tighter clearances and less wear. Nobody can dispute this, all of these sleeved 951s are race motors and are built with maximum displacement in mind. Talk with some of the builders of engines that last and are made for the street and you will see they don't sleeve.

I disagree on the cost, deck plates and sleeves will cost at least 2X the plating process and is subject to a lot more issues in the long run. I have minimal cash outlay in mine and it is holding up just fine. Will it go 100,000 miles, who knows, but I'd bet it has a lot less issues long term than a sleeved 390 Al block will. Stepped sleeves alone will cost what it takes to plate the block, then you still have to machine the block at a cost of at least $1000.00 to do it right.

I never said it would not work, because I know it can and will, but bang for the $ still belongs with the plating. Sleeving is in no way superior unless you have your heart set on increasing the bore size. Personally, I would stroke it before I cut the block up.

BC

I SO don't have the time to constantly rebuff your misconceptions.

BUT -


WAAAY to costly compared to what? Compared to nikasil? So you have your original bore tower. Fine. I want more bore. Stroking does NOTHING for me for where I want the power. I have no need to pull stumps in my "back 40". If you run enough boost, your bore towers will baloon. They will move dynamically. When that happens your nikasil will flake off and cause issues.

SHOW me the internal engine block casting of a Carerra GT. Until then lets not use this as any sort of comparison birth-right for nikasil. We have no idea how Porsche has applied this technology.

Who the F$%# said I was building for detonation? I don't recall saying that. But I will say that IF YOU THINK you will simply tune out detonation from your motor with the stock+Split second *BANDIAD* that you are currently using is quite ahead of yourself. Let me drive your car and we can then talk about what kind of motor you built and "longevity". I will scare the living bejeezis out of you and four generations of your offspring in 15 minutes. Well see how you can "tune out" your heat soaked turbo motor.

...okay...


Why the hell should I mount Twin turbos? What would I achieve that I would not with a simple, already-worked-out install of a SC? Why is it crazy to machine motors? I want bores that will not move dynamically when I apply up to 20psi of boost. That 20psi will be at 7k. It will build like a train from 2500. Thats what I want and to do it, I will need to STRENGTHEN the current bore. While doing that I will add enough bore so that the NA power level is raised in the process.

Lagavulin

I guess that’s a luxury you don't have to worry about.

I see you’re finally catching on when compared to a header-type turbo manifold. As I stated once before, the log-style manifold comes stock on Briggs and Stratton's for a reason, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a sneaky feelin' it's not for performance ones.

Gee John, I guess you like stating the painfully obvious; thanks for the tip, dude!

Can’t you ever come up with some original material which is just a little bit insightful? As usual, you miss the original point entirely.

John, whenever anyone attempts to explain anything to you, it always goes WAY over your head and you start ranting, so why even bother?

Alright, twist my arm; here's a question: Are any of them currently running HIGH boost and thus trying to solve problems presented by a HIGH boost application, let alone one with an unsupported upper cylinder?

Twist my arm again BIG Hint: Your car is not high boost, and neither is mine.

You ‘forgot’ (..again) about asking this question before? I guess if I told you, you'd just forget again that you asked me before, and end up asking me the same question again. I must confess that I'm not a big fan of getting caught in a parallel rift of the time-warp continuum with someone else.

You know, this is basically the same problem you experience when you're trying to figure out those simple forced induction principle thingies and end up blaming it on the simple math just because you can't seem to figure it out.

I will say though that some of my work includes the honor of working with the Space Program in Huntsville, Alabama for several years.

I am not ‘the word’ on this and not even remotely close. However, we do know someone who has worked with this stuff for many years and is 'the word'. I am simply sharing/parroting his hard earned experiences gleaned over the years while working with HIGH BOOST applications. He has been doing this stuff way before the Import crowd started doing it.

Hint: HIGH BOOST is not 11 – 12 psi; 11 – 12 psi is mild boost.


I’m sincerely happy for your car, being the car-guy that I am. Since your car is considered a MILDLY BOOSTED car (..as well as mine), it should last a very long time.

However, on an engine with HIGH BOOST, an unsupported aluminum tower cylinder with ANY type of plating/coating on it's walls is no match for the strength of a deck supported, treated/tempered steel cylinder.

bcdavis

They are all different animals.
That is what some people here do not understand.
Some camps talk about Porsche engineering, durability, reliability, etc...
That is one side of the coin of Porsche.

The other side is POWER.
You can keep your stock engine, and *keep* that reliability.
But if I wanted reliability, I would have bought a Honda, or Mercedes diesel.

But as soon as you delve into the realm of POWER, then you have to play by different rules.
Sometimes that means using cheaper parts, so you can rebuild it after a few races.
Sometimes that means using huge, beefy parts, so that it can take the abuse...
Who cares about reliability?

We are talking about scaring ourselves with raw power!
We are talking about fun, bragging rights, top speed, 0-60, 1/4 mile times, etc...

I think John's car is a good compromise of budget, power, and reliability.
But I think there are some other people out there, who are going for a whole different goal...
It's not about reliability, budget, etc...

It's about building something more impressive than what has been done so far...

Raising the bar...

BC

Listen to me carefully on this. The reason Aluminum block sa re sleeved with Nodular Iron is so that the boost pressures (and sometimes the detonation - to plan NOT to have it incorrect) do not baloon the top of the bore,and distort the sealing surface. The free standing bore towers in our engines are GREAT for tempature control, and the EASE OF CASTING THE BLOCK. Porsche did this open deck process for NO other reasons then that. It sure was hell wasn't for strength. Boost pressures WILL baloon your free standing bore, and the top WILL dynamically move, and you WILL continue to blow headgaskets, if you were to really push your car.

My 928 will be a daily driver. In SoCal Traffic. Point and shoot. I need this thing bulletproof.

Tony

500...600...700 hp? Why you ask?

Do I have to ask my dog again?

Tony

Yup...given enough boost.
How abooots a steel retaining ring machined/slipped onto the OUTSIDE of the bore?

This is a pretty good/novel idea ive heard of.....somewhere?

May not stop movement but would help with the ballonong/trumpeting.

Any input on that idea?

BC

"Somewhere". Heh. I think that idea is great if you want t he standard bore. You would still want some sort of deck plate to control the lateral movement of the free-standing bore tower. But the balooning would be reduced if not removed entirely.

I have some scratched cylinder walls anyway, and this is why I am going towards sleeving. Shipping, for me, to anyplace outside of SoCal makes the sleeving process here all that much cheaper, and then the pistons are cheaper, etc.

Thanks for all of your info Tony.

John..

So you think my Split Second PSC1 is a Band-Aid? Correction my friend, it is a very cost effective way to tune a car and works wonderfully. Do you have any idea how long it will take you to tune that stand alone system...cold start, hot start, elevation on and on and on. My car is the only MAF controlled L-Jet 928 out there, you have never seen it, riddden in it or heard it run. I expect you have investigated ways to make the fuel system work for drivability as well as high end power? Hope so, cuase it takes a huge injector or a lot of fuel pressure to blow that much power out.

Branden, maybe if you actually FINISH this project we can talk, how long have you been ranting on here now? As far as scaring me and my offspring, well I hope you are a fast pusher or maybe Lag can help you push the car while I work the brakes and steering. My car went from pulling the motor to back on the road in 5 months and on a minimal budget, this with a stressful full time job 40 miles from home in the middle of a house purchase and planning for a wedding. It is called dedication and getting it done, not talking about it. 650 HP this, bla bla bla that, talk is cheap and continues to get cheaper... For now your car appears to be out of comission as your wallet shrinks. Guess what, you open my hood and it all looks tidy, as it would have coming from the factory.

Lag, you are so full of crap you make me laugh. Twas you that stated I could only make 315 crank HP on 8 lbs. Did I mention the dyno pull at 8 was done with 2 degrees of timing out as well as a rich mixture and it still pulled 302 (360+ crank) to the rollers? You and your math, bla bla bla. Everybody reading this knows what a BSer you are.

For the record, those Log style manifolds can support a whole heck of a lot more power than you could imagine Lag. You don't need a tuned equal length header with turbocharging, in fact for the street a shorter streamlined setup is better for response and heat retention. I suspect you never looked all that closely at the photos, if you had you would see the cylinder dumps enter radially, not straight in.

Let's see, why would I want a turbo instead of a centrifugal....maybe for efficiency, maybe for mid range boost, maybe so I don't have to do so much throttling when I don't want to go fast, or maybe so I don't need to push 20 lbs of boost to get just 8 lbs up the middle.... Duh, show me a centrifugal supercharger on any factory built performance car, or any transportation device that has to be reliable (i.e. diesel truck). Heat soaked this heat soaked that, bottom line is there is no better, more efficient way to build boosted power than with a turbo. It is an engineering fact. Again, Audi R8 and the 917 both ran turbochargers and these are endurance race cars.

See Branden, you talk about running 20 lbs at 7000 RPM, so you have maybe 8 or 10 lbs at 3,500 RPM....why not turbocharge it and level off at 18 lbs that you can have by 3,000 RPM that remains until redline? Who gives a crap about posting a peak HP number on a roller dyno, you can't drive it there anyway. You guys will never quite grasp this concept of how much more boost a properly engineered turbo system will make across the whole range. You all need to do some reading. The point is you don't need to run 20 lbs at the top end to get the mid range with a turbocharger, it is that simple. If you go back and figure it all out you can probably make a very nice running car with moderate to high boost without all that internal machining work. In 5th gear my old 5 cylinder can make 24 lbs of boost at 3000 RPM and guess what it has a simple cast iron streamlined manifold with a turbo that sits 4" off the head. It also glows red at night and has 220,000 miles on the clock...no reliability issues whatsoever, no o-ring heads, no issues. Think I am wrong? Lag's car would be a lot faster running say 8 or 9 lbs from 3000 RPM to redline than it is with 11 lbs at 6500 RPM. Integrate that Lag and do tell.

Guys, it is about area under the curve and having something that is streetable as well as reliable.

John..

http://www.hahnracecraft.com/auto/Ma...o%20combos.htm

Sorry to shatter the record on how "inefficient" a simple log style manifold coupled to a turbo is.

BC

...I took this out of my previous posts so as not to seem pissy, or in any way nit picking, but I have to now...

MY NAME IS BRENDAN. Its on the top of my posts. Its on the left of my posts. IF YOU USE THE QUOTES, its also JUST ABOVE where your writing. Get my name freaking straight, and then we can talk about my project plan and completion date. k?

Ranting? Nope. Just trying to quell misconceptions disseminated by people who have a vested intrest in making sure the money THEY spent seems like the best place to have spent it.

bcdavis

It's pointless, because despite all the talk about turbos, there is not a kit out there, and so no one is really going to look at it as a viable option. There are pre-packaged, functional supercharger kits that create good power, and run well, without aftermarket engine management. So that is what people are going to buy...

And as I keep saying, reliability is not what people are looking at, when they talk about boosting their cars. They want maximum power, not reliability. So people can stop talking about reliability, when talking about boost. People already understand that they are reducing their reliability, and increasing their risk of a problem.

If we want reliability, we would keep the car stock!