FredR

The dilemma facing our professional friends is that clients will [reasonably] expect a fixed price for a fixed job Porsche style but do not expect Porsche prices. what most probably do not understand is that Porsche allow for all sorts of variable factors in their rates. One only has to look at the photos we see on this list to understand the dilemma. Some motors look as though one could eat one's dinner on them and others look like a pack of wild dogs ate their dinner on them over day since the last timing belt job was [or was not] done.

Those of us that do attempt such would probably go hungry if we were to charge for what we do given the care we take to do such. If I had to try to do such for a living I would probably run out of enthusiasm by day 3 on the job. That our professional friends do this for a living and still find time/enthusiasm to post on this list and help us the way they do speaks volumes about them- bless them!

Otto Mechanic

^^^^ What he said

This site allowed me to support my car when there was no other help coming. That's frankly invaluable. It's not that I didn't want to pay a "qualified wrench" as Dr. Bob so succinctly put it, it's that I couldn't; there was no other wrench in town.

I'm laughing at myself now I realized Dr. Bob was discussing his own conundrum with living in Bend; I depended on his advice about how to repair and maintain my car for years because there just wasn't any choice, not because I couldn't afford professional help. There was no professional help other than the volunteers who frequent this site. None.

My hat is off to all of you, and I hope you know who you are, because I sure do.

Respectfully,

docmirror

I have a qualified 928 guy a few miles away. He's backed up with work through 2019. My other options are a general Porsche Indy with good 928 bones, or myself. Since I try to stay net-plus on my 928(which is weird enough), that means I DIY most of my stuff. I'm not going to tackle paint anymore. I painted enough cars to know what a hassle it is, so that goes out to my airplane guy and he does fine work, but slow.

My worst timing belt job had to be the VW GTI. Nothing is designed for ease of access. Removing the bottom engine mount and anti-torque and jacking the engine/trans around to remove belt parts is a disaster. I was sorely tempted to get the Sawzall out and go to work on the inner fender - but, I demurred. The easiest was my recent Subie boxer engine. the 928 is complicated, but ultimately not too darn bad.

Otto Mechanic

So many other good observations in your post Doc, but this is the crux move; it can be done.

I've actually vowed to not own a Porsche (or any car really) made much past 1999. The advent of the Nanny State has also bled into the automobile industry, or perhaps it goes the other way? Who could know? The bottom line is that when BMW or Porsche decide I'm not qualified to change my own oil, I stop doing business with them. Plain and simple.

Anyone else out there that absolutely demands the right to repair the equipment they've purchased should investigate https://www.ifixit.com/ and maybe join. The ongoing assault on property ownership has to be checked and this is the best vehicle to do that I've found so far. We need to organize and demand the right to repair the property we've purchased. It's either ours, or its leased.

Let's help draw that line?

Regards,

Otto Mechanic

I wrote:

"The advent of the Nanny State has also bled into the automobile industry..."

Nothing really makes this case more strongly than the "self driving" car attempts we've all witnessed over the past couple of years, attempts that have resulted in the death or serious injury of real live people; folks just going about their daily business who were mowed down by "autonomous" vehicles. You know, the salt of the earth; dead folks.

I'd have to cite Arizona as the principal enabler in this one but California is a close second. I can only assume the folks who live there have an out of control government willing to volunteer them as lab rats for Waymo and Uber without compensation. This is a sensitive subject for me since I seriously considered moving to Cave Creek (just outside Scotsdale) AZ a few years back.

Soon, unless we do something, you'll not only be prohibited from servicing your car, you aren't going to be allowed to drive it.

Otto Mechanic

PS: I'm more than a bit serious about this. A very close friend of mine and a USAF Lt. Colonel responsible for flying nuclear armaments for twenty years in defense of Europe, retired to ship rubber dog poop from Taiwan to the US a few years ago. He calls the 767 the "clap on, clap off" airplane. His only real duties involve taxiing on launch and recovery.

If it could happen to him, it can happen to you.

docmirror

We're getting far afield here but you don't want to know the recent court decision on the John Deere tractor repair saga. There's been a strong underground movement to get the diagnostic and repair electronic tools needed to fix modern tractors. John Deere fought back, and defended their licensed software that makes the tractor serviceable. I'm not sure where I fall on the whole thing, but it's becoming a nightmare for modern tractor owners who make a living from their machines. With a crop in the field, any kind of electronic module or asm that needs service has to wait for a qualified JD tech with the custom tools to come out and provide service. Owners are stuck with JD and JD ONLY as their repair source. Stories of farmers waiting 2 to 3 weeks or a month for a machine to get fixed at exorbitant prices. There's actually an uptick in the price of late 80s and early 90s machines now that have no electronics control modules because farmers and ranchers can't wait for the tech to come out, and can't afford to have JD fix their 3YO combine, or other equipment as they have a crop to get in, or they loose everything. JD refuses to sell the software for service, and once the warranty is up, owners have no alternative. Farmers and ranchers have been working on their own equip for generations. Every farmer in the world knows how to weld, braze, fit and replace major tractor parts. But these days, even if it's a hyd asm it'll have a sensor on it that plugs into the control module.

davek9

I've done two in the last month, and perhaps 5 in the last year, lost count over the past 20 years, all holding up on supercharged and other power adders, including DE track days, Stock/PKen tensioners (whatever flavor works for the car/owner, or me
I spoke with the OP and he has spotty records going back some 12 years. I also know the shop that quoted the work, add yes they did give him worse case (needs all) as they are a very good and don't like to low ball what could be a costly job, as already stated here.

With 30 plus year old cars and others that have done prior "work" on them, you do not know what you are going to find once you open it up.
Don't assume anything and don't under price the cost and you won't be surprised.
An 86.5 I'm currently working on (hadn't run in over 12 years) had three broken off Cam cover stand offs, all need to be drilled and tapped, broken, missing bolts and more frozen on parts, all took time to remove w/ out doing more damage.
Even the do it yourself club guys I always help run into unexpected delays and cost overruns, but like said, its their wrenching time, I just lend a hand and leave them to it

Dave K

docmirror

Dave makes a good point about the unknowns. Working on +30YO cars, and not just the 928 will be a lesson in unexpected findings. My first belt job I found mistakes in the clutch line and rod. Not something that would normally be associated with doing a TB job, but when I got down there to lock the flywheel, sure enough the clutch slave had to be redone. Who would know/guess? I also found the front wiring loom crumbled and wires melted. Not associated with the TB per-se but the work had to be done to resolve it, and it's an extra 6-9 hours of labor. For a shop charging $90/hour, that's significant.

checkmate1996

Look up Munk's Auto Service. Not sure how close to you they are but they are the one's that sponsor Sharks in Hell every year and KNOW 928s. In my experience, this tends to be a 2 day job if all goes well or a long weekend.
Friday night, lift car, drain fluids, quick external cleaning prior to starting.
Saturday - Start removing pieces parts - 4-8 hours depending on broken/stripped bolts. It's common for the those 10mm WP bolts to get soft and the heads to twist off.
Sunday-Put back together, clean up and test..

dr bob

some of the listed watch-outs are exactly the reasons why few others get to touch my cars with tools. Broken bolts are easily solved with basic work habits that include anti-seize and a torque wrench. So many other basic workmanship habits raise hell down the road if they aren't correct. Many of my habits have been learned after being the victim of my own poor work habits. Part of the mission of the experienced folks here has been to help folks learn the needed good work habits by education rather than experience. Some write aboutit. Some offer clinic days where owners have an experienced set of eyes watching over their shoulders as the owners do the work. I've done both, as have many many others.

My tongue was in my cheek when I doubted my ability to replace a 928 cam belt. I still have the step-by-step guides and all the video I shot the first time I changed the belt. Specialty tools are in the right places and I actually remember where they are (plastic storage bin labeled "928 Tools"). Most important - I have the phone numbers for our finest 928 parts suppliers. Too often we are tempted to "make do" with our worn/used parts because we don't have the new parts handy as we reassemble. "Send a care package for this project" gets the job done. Aftr that the wrencjing part is just procedure.

hacker-pschorr

The case of the pedestrian in Tempe is tricky, you seen the in-car video? I'm not sure most humans would have been able to stop in time. I know there are more cases out there but it's not like "Maximum Overdrive" where self-driving cars have gone on a rampage.....yet.

What do you suggest "we" do? The VW TDI case was proof common sense doesn't exist in vehicle regulations.
Every talking head in the computer industry will be able to prove (to any politician that will listen) that autonomous vehicles may never be perfect, statistically will still be safer. And politicians are listening.

The #1 question holding up progress is legality when someone is killed. Once that is sorted out and precedence is on the books, the floodgates will open. The "average Joe" would love to be able to sit back, read a book and arrive at their destination without using public transport. The future of self-driving "pods" are already being touted as the final solution to traffic congestion in major cities.

15% ethanol is coming to a pump near you. Not because it's actually good for the environment, but because someone needs the vote in corn growing states.

Auto enthusiasts are a tiny sub-section of the car world, SEMA is about the best lobbyist group we have. If certain people had their way, all 50 states would be under an iron fist of vehicle regulations that match California or worse.

I've been following that saga closely along with my friends in the repair business. You really cannot fix most (if any) modern car without the proper computer. These are not "off the shelf" consumer devices either. Friends of mine paid many thousands for one computer for one make, and have to pay a subscription or they will be out of date as new(er) cars receive updates. Even then, there are still things they cannot do that must be taken to the dealer.

Everything from window switches to the ABS computer are "coded" to the VIN, gone are the days of simply getting a known good part & slapping it in, you need to code it and the newer the cars are, the worse this gets. Friend of mine had to drag his Mercedes to the dealer to unlock the rear brakes. He was just installing pads / rotors, first step on the pedal put the system into a safety lock-down mode.

Manufactures are just waiting for the day they can push a button and totally lock down their computers so you are 100% married to the dealership.

Massachusetts is leading the way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massac...air_Initiative

The feds are right behind:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_..._to_Repair_Act

Back to self-driving cars, just wait - that could be a key turning point where manufacturers take a stand to claim locking down their cars is the only way to prevent hacking & their self-driving cars from going on a killing spree.

docmirror

The diff between servicing a car, and a farm combine/tractor are massive. A car can be flat-bedded to a dealer usually within a 20 or even 200 mile radius. A farmer in W WI or central NB who has a non-running combine is **** out of luck until the JD guy with his little plug-in tool comes along. Meanwhile, some million dollar crop is dying on the vine(literally). I have heard a few horror stories about farmers losing a full crop due to one piece of equip going down at the wrong time, and no service rep avail. Like I mentioned, I'm following trends on yesterdaystractors.com and there is a concerted effort out there to buy up good 10YO machines, and keep them in shape just on the off chance a million dollar combine or other massive machine gets a red X on the screen and won't move.

hacker-pschorr

I never said it was exactly the same, just pointing out such legislation effects way more than just farm equipment. This will also trickle down to commercial trucking. It will be interesting if / when a company like Schneider International is told they cannot have the software to service their own fleet.

Farmer down the road from me purchased some high tech combine from Europe a few years ago. It broke during the worst possible day of harvesting, had to fly someone in from Germany to fix it. Nobody locally could touch it.

Back to cars, friends of mine that live in northern Wisconsin are 4-5 hours away from a dealership for higher end cars. If your car is your work (like over the road sales people) it can be just as detrimental not being able to take it to a local indy shop.

worf928