Installing threaded fuel tank insert
09-17-2018, 08:55 AM
#31
I actually thought about using the insert to keep it from floating away, BUT, it might slide the bowl too far off center and prevent the sending unit from lining up. Not sure. Need to test more.
I really want to have the bowl in place, as it was designed, but not sure how I can possibly make it adhere to the bottom of the tank.
I really want to have the bowl in place, as it was designed, but not sure how I can possibly make it adhere to the bottom of the tank.
09-17-2018, 09:08 AM
#32
Racer
I was more worried about an unattached bowl, like mine. I know that I am in a unique position with my specific set of circumstances.
if I haven't already said it, thank you for this product. You are giving hope to guys like myself that have spun out threaded inserts. I am hoping to be driving this car by next week. Assuming Pirtek can fabricate me a decent fuel hose Wednesday.
09-17-2018, 09:20 AM
#33
Bauer can you please add details on how this insert is supposed to work,
Was the intent to have it pass through the white plastic part then into the outlet port?
Is the white plastic supposed to be removed first?
did your tank have this white plastic insert in place when you installed yours???
This seems like a simple installation but sending a detailed instruction sheet with the insert would be most helpful, adding pictures is even better. also any lil bits of info you have learned
I have not attempted to use the insert I got,
and really have no idea on what your installation process is,
or what issues I might have or how to place it,
or what tools your suggesting to use or anything else but what I read here.
NOTE as an end user this isnt the best way to sell parts.
Murphys law if it can be installed the wrong way it will be.
As an example when I get a Greg Brown part it comes with a page of installation instructions and pictures to aid in the correct installation of the part.
This gives the end user a better chance of installing the part in the proper location with all of the intent that the designer had when they made it.
I am asking this because I am sure their are others in the same boat trying to figure out how to properly use / install this cool part. and they might not be on Rennlist to read this post.
Or for example this part might be dropped off with the owners mechanic and then he is tasked with installing it .
Thanks for your consideration.
Was the intent to have it pass through the white plastic part then into the outlet port?
Is the white plastic supposed to be removed first?
did your tank have this white plastic insert in place when you installed yours???
This seems like a simple installation but sending a detailed instruction sheet with the insert would be most helpful, adding pictures is even better. also any lil bits of info you have learned
I have not attempted to use the insert I got,
and really have no idea on what your installation process is,
or what issues I might have or how to place it,
or what tools your suggesting to use or anything else but what I read here.
NOTE as an end user this isnt the best way to sell parts.
Murphys law if it can be installed the wrong way it will be.
As an example when I get a Greg Brown part it comes with a page of installation instructions and pictures to aid in the correct installation of the part.
This gives the end user a better chance of installing the part in the proper location with all of the intent that the designer had when they made it.
I am asking this because I am sure their are others in the same boat trying to figure out how to properly use / install this cool part. and they might not be on Rennlist to read this post.
Or for example this part might be dropped off with the owners mechanic and then he is tasked with installing it .
Thanks for your consideration.
The insert was intended and designed to work with all native parts currently living in the tank. Do not remove anything.
The only tip I have is to make sure the "finger" on the insert is in the 12 o'clock position when you're first seating. I would use a Sharpie on the outside lip to indicate where the finger is because once everything is in the tank, it's difficult to see. If I make another batch of these, I will put a small notch to indicate where that finger is.
How you seat it is up to you. With that said, I used a combination of washers and a threaded rod to install the ones I have. It literally takes less time to install it properly than it takes to read this post. I can include pictures of what I used. When I install another one, I will make a video.
The thing to remember with me and my parts... I make parts because I needed them on my car. After the part is made, I will announce it on a forum. If people seem to want it, I will make a run of 20 of those parts.
The other important thing to remember is, this isn't my business. I am no longer a machinist as a profession. I happen to be very good friends with the owner's son of a CNC machine shop worth over 40 million dollars.(where I used to work) .Out of the kindness of their hearts, they allow me to continue to come and go as I please.
10 years ago I went BACK to school and graduated from Johns Hopkins with a degree in Radiology. So my job now is to prevent death.
GB's makes his living selling parts. So it stands the reason his things come with detailed instructions.
I am always available to answer any and all questions. I even gave my phone number out to another member that was worried about the install.
If you have any other questions, I will also be available to answer them.
09-17-2018, 09:40 AM
#34
Bauer,
I was more worried about an unattached bowl, like mine. I know that I am in a unique position with my specific set of circumstances.
if I haven't already said it, thank you for this product. You are giving hope to guys like myself that have spun out threaded inserts. I am hoping to be driving this car by next week. Assuming Pirtek can fabricate me a decent fuel hose Wednesday.
I was more worried about an unattached bowl, like mine. I know that I am in a unique position with my specific set of circumstances.
if I haven't already said it, thank you for this product. You are giving hope to guys like myself that have spun out threaded inserts. I am hoping to be driving this car by next week. Assuming Pirtek can fabricate me a decent fuel hose Wednesday.
Are you referring to the fuel hose that comes out of the screen and into the pump? If so, I have a solution for that also. I have a -10 screen that will use all -an fittings. Eliminating the need for for specialty, sometimes difficult to sorce, hoses.
09-17-2018, 09:50 AM
#35
Racer
I think you will be fine letting the insert hold everything together. However, if you decide to remove the bowl, I would make a conscious effort to never let the tank get below 1/4 tank. Personally, I think that's just good practice with vehicle but I know many people don't.
Are you referring to the fuel hose that comes out of the screen and into the pump? If so, I have a solution for that also. I have a -10 screen that will use all -an fittings. Eliminating the need for for specialty, sometimes difficult to sorce, hoses.
Are you referring to the fuel hose that comes out of the screen and into the pump? If so, I have a solution for that also. I have a -10 screen that will use all -an fittings. Eliminating the need for for specialty, sometimes difficult to sorce, hoses.
I am going to try your suggestion of letting the insert hold the bowl in place.
My first problem is that the old sending unit lost the cup on the bottom and it is stuck in the bowl. I need to get the lid off of the bowl, remove the sending unit "cup". Then get the insert in there and move everything into place. Fortunately, I have a 11 year old son with skinny arms.
09-17-2018, 08:20 PM
#36
Racer
UPDATE::::
After some testing with my test tank tonight, I am satisfied that this insert is going to solve my issue, nicely.
My bowl is detached and floating around in the tank. So, I inserted the insert directly into the strainer hole. I left the bowl pushed out of the way. Once the insert settled completely into the opening, I moved the bowl up against the insert. So, I have the insert between the bowl and the tank wall. Once the strainer is inserted and the sending unit tube is dropped down in to the bowl, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO movement of the bowl. Everything just mates up nicely, and locks into place, even though my bowl isn't tacked to the bottom of the tank anymore. This appears to be a a done deal on getting my tank back in action.
After some testing with my test tank tonight, I am satisfied that this insert is going to solve my issue, nicely.
My bowl is detached and floating around in the tank. So, I inserted the insert directly into the strainer hole. I left the bowl pushed out of the way. Once the insert settled completely into the opening, I moved the bowl up against the insert. So, I have the insert between the bowl and the tank wall. Once the strainer is inserted and the sending unit tube is dropped down in to the bowl, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO movement of the bowl. Everything just mates up nicely, and locks into place, even though my bowl isn't tacked to the bottom of the tank anymore. This appears to be a a done deal on getting my tank back in action.
09-17-2018, 08:31 PM
#37
UPDATE::::
After some testing with my test tank tonight, I am satisfied that this insert is going to solve my issue, nicely.
My bowl is detached and floating around in the tank. So, I inserted the insert directly into the strainer hole. I left the bowl pushed out of the way. Once the insert settled completely into the opening, I moved the bowl up against the insert. So, I have the insert between the bowl and the tank wall. Once the strainer is inserted and the sending unit tube is dropped down in to the bowl, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO movement of the bowl. Everything just mates up nicely, and locks into place, even though my bowl isn't tacked to the bottom of the tank anymore. This appears to be a a done deal on getting my tank back in action.
After some testing with my test tank tonight, I am satisfied that this insert is going to solve my issue, nicely.
My bowl is detached and floating around in the tank. So, I inserted the insert directly into the strainer hole. I left the bowl pushed out of the way. Once the insert settled completely into the opening, I moved the bowl up against the insert. So, I have the insert between the bowl and the tank wall. Once the strainer is inserted and the sending unit tube is dropped down in to the bowl, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO movement of the bowl. Everything just mates up nicely, and locks into place, even though my bowl isn't tacked to the bottom of the tank anymore. This appears to be a a done deal on getting my tank back in action.
Get it back on the road and rock-on!
09-19-2018, 11:38 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
I am a bit puzzled about the seal at the outlet of the tank after the insert is installed. I take it that the seal is in fact made with the gasket between the outlet screen flange and the outlet neck of the plastic tank. That seal appears to me to be made by the outlet screen screwing into the insert with enough pressure to seal the gasket. What puzzles me is that I can't tell what is holding the insert firm enough to keep that seal.
This thread suggests in numerous place that the insert is somehow "seated," with phrases like "seat properly," "everything is seated," "wont seat properly," "when seating the new insert," and "got it seated." However "seating" something like this suggests that when it is installed it will actually seat against something and stop. However, this thread also suggests that "the finger will spin," and "remember to not pull it so far through that the new insert comes past the outside lip," both of which suggest that the insert is not seated nor held firmly enough to keep from spinning except against the finger in one direction. So I wonder where the "seat" is that is holding the insert from simply being pulled far enough through the outlet neck of the tank to break the gasket seal, sometime after it is all installed.
This thread suggests in numerous place that the insert is somehow "seated," with phrases like "seat properly," "everything is seated," "wont seat properly," "when seating the new insert," and "got it seated." However "seating" something like this suggests that when it is installed it will actually seat against something and stop. However, this thread also suggests that "the finger will spin," and "remember to not pull it so far through that the new insert comes past the outside lip," both of which suggest that the insert is not seated nor held firmly enough to keep from spinning except against the finger in one direction. So I wonder where the "seat" is that is holding the insert from simply being pulled far enough through the outlet neck of the tank to break the gasket seal, sometime after it is all installed.
09-19-2018, 03:29 PM
#39
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Jerry,
The factory depends on a soft seal that fits in the screw-in nozzle fitting were the hose connects. That factory soft seal is compressed slightly between the nozzle fitting and the outside face of the plastic tank nozzle. Richard adds another seal inside where his threaded insert draws up to the inside face of that same tank nozzle. ("Seats Properly" against the inside of the tank nozzle lip) With his fitting, you have a sandwich -- his fitting, his seal, the tank nozzle lip, the factory soft seal, then the factory screw in fitting for the hose. The factory screw fitting has a groove cut in the face to help keep the soft seal from squeezing out. That soft seal deteriorates over time and eventually leaks. That's when the fitting needs to come out, but spins the insert instead of unthreading...
The factory depends on a soft seal that fits in the screw-in nozzle fitting were the hose connects. That factory soft seal is compressed slightly between the nozzle fitting and the outside face of the plastic tank nozzle. Richard adds another seal inside where his threaded insert draws up to the inside face of that same tank nozzle. ("Seats Properly" against the inside of the tank nozzle lip) With his fitting, you have a sandwich -- his fitting, his seal, the tank nozzle lip, the factory soft seal, then the factory screw in fitting for the hose. The factory screw fitting has a groove cut in the face to help keep the soft seal from squeezing out. That soft seal deteriorates over time and eventually leaks. That's when the fitting needs to come out, but spins the insert instead of unthreading...
09-19-2018, 04:15 PM
#40
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Richard - I will have a copy of this thread added to the inserts to assist with fitting.
I think we are all on a learning curve here.
1) So for those with a detached bowl, inserting the insert through the bowl and then into the tank orifice is the way forward. This keeps the bowl in place?
2) If the bowl is in place - the insert still passes through the bowl and tank just the same?
Richard - if and when we do another run do we need to maybe lengthen the insert slightly?
Internal seal or no internal seal?
I think we are all on a learning curve here.
1) So for those with a detached bowl, inserting the insert through the bowl and then into the tank orifice is the way forward. This keeps the bowl in place?
2) If the bowl is in place - the insert still passes through the bowl and tank just the same?
Richard - if and when we do another run do we need to maybe lengthen the insert slightly?
Internal seal or no internal seal?
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
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928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
09-19-2018, 05:31 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Jerry,
The factory depends on a soft seal that fits in the screw-in nozzle fitting were the hose connects. That factory soft seal is compressed slightly between the nozzle fitting and the outside face of the plastic tank nozzle. Richard adds another seal inside where his threaded insert draws up to the inside face of that same tank nozzle. ("Seats Properly" against the inside of the tank nozzle lip) With his fitting, you have a sandwich -- his fitting, his seal, the tank nozzle lip, the factory soft seal, then the factory screw in fitting for the hose. The factory screw fitting has a groove cut in the face to help keep the soft seal from squeezing out. That soft seal deteriorates over time and eventually leaks. That's when the fitting needs to come out, but spins the insert instead of unthreading...
The factory depends on a soft seal that fits in the screw-in nozzle fitting were the hose connects. That factory soft seal is compressed slightly between the nozzle fitting and the outside face of the plastic tank nozzle. Richard adds another seal inside where his threaded insert draws up to the inside face of that same tank nozzle. ("Seats Properly" against the inside of the tank nozzle lip) With his fitting, you have a sandwich -- his fitting, his seal, the tank nozzle lip, the factory soft seal, then the factory screw in fitting for the hose. The factory screw fitting has a groove cut in the face to help keep the soft seal from squeezing out. That soft seal deteriorates over time and eventually leaks. That's when the fitting needs to come out, but spins the insert instead of unthreading...
09-19-2018, 06:13 PM
#42
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UPDATE::::
After some testing with my test tank tonight, I am satisfied that this insert is going to solve my issue, nicely.
My bowl is detached and floating around in the tank. So, I inserted the insert directly into the strainer hole. I left the bowl pushed out of the way. Once the insert settled completely into the opening, I moved the bowl up against the insert. So, I have the insert between the bowl and the tank wall. Once the strainer is inserted and the sending unit tube is dropped down in to the bowl, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO movement of the bowl. Everything just mates up nicely, and locks into place, even though my bowl isn't tacked to the bottom of the tank anymore. This appears to be a a done deal on getting my tank back in action.
After some testing with my test tank tonight, I am satisfied that this insert is going to solve my issue, nicely.
My bowl is detached and floating around in the tank. So, I inserted the insert directly into the strainer hole. I left the bowl pushed out of the way. Once the insert settled completely into the opening, I moved the bowl up against the insert. So, I have the insert between the bowl and the tank wall. Once the strainer is inserted and the sending unit tube is dropped down in to the bowl, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO movement of the bowl. Everything just mates up nicely, and locks into place, even though my bowl isn't tacked to the bottom of the tank anymore. This appears to be a a done deal on getting my tank back in action.
09-19-2018, 07:45 PM
#43
Richard - I will have a copy of this thread added to the inserts to assist with fitting.
I think we are all on a learning curve here.
1) So for those with a detached bowl, inserting the insert through the bowl and then into the tank orifice is the way forward. This keeps the bowl in place?
2) If the bowl is in place - the insert still passes through the bowl and tank just the same?
Richard - if and when we do another run do we need to maybe lengthen the insert slightly?
Internal seal or no internal seal?
I think we are all on a learning curve here.
1) So for those with a detached bowl, inserting the insert through the bowl and then into the tank orifice is the way forward. This keeps the bowl in place?
2) If the bowl is in place - the insert still passes through the bowl and tank just the same?
Richard - if and when we do another run do we need to maybe lengthen the insert slightly?
Internal seal or no internal seal?
2) Yes, everything native to the inside of the tank is designed to stay inside of he tank.
I promise the insert does not need to be lengthened if seated correctly and it would seem that seating it correctly should involve a combination of washers and a threaded shaft,
I definitely suggest using the internal "seal"
When seated properly, the reveal should look like this.
Last edited by BauerR; 09-19-2018 at 08:58 PM.
09-19-2018, 08:00 PM
#44
09-19-2018, 08:16 PM
#45
When seated properly, the gap between the inner bowl and the inner tank will disappear. I also made the insert slightly larger than the hole it goes into, so it's not "easy" to just push into position. It needs to be drawn into position.
Once everything looks like the image above, the screen will thread into the new insert just like the original. Next, using a torque wrench set to roughly 19 in/lbs, everything will be sent home into its final resting position.
I have about 3000 trouble-free miles on mine and a friend has about double that.
As stated before, I will make a video next time I install one and hopefully that will give an "ah ha" moment.