Proper knock readings with hammer
07-30-2018, 10:48 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I would say that the number is pointing towards AFR problem. The engine could be ingesting oil during these runs which could be bumping up the knock count. I would suggest installing a baffle under the oil filler if you have not already done so to remove that problem, it completely cleans the inlet manifold up of oil.
07-30-2018, 10:55 AM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Anything that changes the sound that the engine makes, like motor mounts collapsing and bottoming out, could in principle alter the knock sensor readings. However, I'd be surprised if this would be the case in practice.
07-30-2018, 11:29 AM
#18
Pro
I would think pooled oil to be less of an issue to airborne oil / mist but worth removing.
To me that would leave fueling or an air leak.
08-04-2018, 08:53 AM
#19
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Paul is telling me he has installed a power chip by John Speak. That explains a lot, the more aggressive ignition advance show as a larger number of ignition knocks by the hammer tool. After reinstalling the stock chip almost no knock readings could be seen. However Paul say the car is performing better with the power chip which I am telling him to continue to use even if he is a little afraid the engine may explode.
Åke
Åke
08-04-2018, 10:52 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Paul is telling me he has installed a power chip by John Speak. That explains a lot, the more aggressive ignition advance show as a larger number of ignition knocks by the hammer tool. After reinstalling the stock chip almost no knock readings could be seen. However Paul say the car is performing better with the power chip which I am telling him to continue to use even if he is a little afraid the engine may explode.
Åke
Åke
Thus the question is just how much can we safely advance the ignition without causing any mechanical damage? The ST2 community suggests a couple of cylinders knocking with corrections up to about 3 degrees retardation should be ok. At high revs invariably the culprits were cylinders 2 and 6. A test patch that Ken wrote for me showed that pulling some timing from these cylinders and advancing all cylinders by that amount resulted in all cylinders commencing knock at more or less the same point of advance.
Thus I am sure I am leaving something on the table as it were but at least I feel as though I have a safe tune.*. .**
08-04-2018, 11:04 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Paul is telling me he has installed a power chip by John Speak. That explains a lot, the more aggressive ignition advance show as a larger number of ignition knocks by the hammer tool. After reinstalling the stock chip almost no knock readings could be seen. However Paul say the car is performing better with the power chip which I am telling him to continue to use even if he is a little afraid the engine may explode.
Åke
Åke
My own experience with tuning our GT similarly with a Sharktuner is that letting the EZK do its job-- pulling a few degrees for a few cylinders-- is perfectly OK. GB took that engine apart for a rebuild at 240K miles, worn but not distressed and nothing that looked like detonation damage. The only distress was the front main bearing from a 25-year-old harmonic damper but that's another story.
08-04-2018, 01:10 PM
#22
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This raises a point that I have made several times with a mixed response. I only have access to RON95 fuel but the stock maps are based on RON98. When I started working with ST2 I was somewhat disappointed that I had to pull a couple of degrees on full load high rpms resulting in 25 degrees of advance. At this level of advance I could stop all knocks noting that I usually do my tuning runs in the hot season. Of course I run with a faster exhaust system than stock so I understand that should explain some of what I experienced [I noticed that the maps for cars with CATS ran a couple of degrees more advance than non CAT maps thus I like to think I am about where I should be.*
Thus the question is just how much can we safely advance the ignition without causing any mechanical damage? The ST2 community suggests a couple of cylinders knocking with corrections up to about 3 degrees retardation should be ok. At high revs invariably the culprits were cylinders 2 and 6. A test patch that Ken wrote for me showed that pulling some timing from these cylinders and advancing all cylinders by that amount resulted in all cylinders commencing knock at more or less the same point of advance.
Thus I am sure I am leaving something on the table as it were but at least I feel as though I have a safe tune.*. .**
Thus the question is just how much can we safely advance the ignition without causing any mechanical damage? The ST2 community suggests a couple of cylinders knocking with corrections up to about 3 degrees retardation should be ok. At high revs invariably the culprits were cylinders 2 and 6. A test patch that Ken wrote for me showed that pulling some timing from these cylinders and advancing all cylinders by that amount resulted in all cylinders commencing knock at more or less the same point of advance.
Thus I am sure I am leaving something on the table as it were but at least I feel as though I have a safe tune.*. .**
I have a couple of cars with catalytic converter delete. The coding plugs were of course changed to the proper coding. Maybe I should not have done that, keeping the CAT coding as you say it has a couple of degrees more advance? I have never been able to find out the difference between the codings, it is six of them and from MY -89 a 150 ohm resistor is added to four of them. Is there anyone who can enlighten me of the difference between all the codes?
Åke
08-04-2018, 05:48 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Fred, this is interesting, quote: (I noticed that the maps for cars with CATS ran a couple of degrees more advance than non CAT maps).
I have a couple of cars with catalytic converter delete. The coding plugs were of course changed to the proper coding. Maybe I should not have done that, keeping the CAT coding as you say it has a couple of degrees more advance? I have never been able to find out the difference between the codings, it is six of them and from MY -89 a 150 ohm resistor is added to four of them. Is there anyone who can enlighten me of the difference between all the codes?
Åke
I have a couple of cars with catalytic converter delete. The coding plugs were of course changed to the proper coding. Maybe I should not have done that, keeping the CAT coding as you say it has a couple of degrees more advance? I have never been able to find out the difference between the codings, it is six of them and from MY -89 a 150 ohm resistor is added to four of them. Is there anyone who can enlighten me of the difference between all the codes?
Åke
If anyone understands the differences in full it will likely be John Speake and Jim C.- doubtless they will chime in if they see your post- that or send one of them a PM. As I am aware there are codings for the S4 manual and automatic versions with and without cats. I presume there is a coding for the GT* that has a different idle speed and a different fuel cut off point [possibly different maps as well]. I ran my S4 motor on a LH unit from a GT for a while after my S4 LH unit failed- did not notice any difference.
Rgds
Fred
08-05-2018, 03:31 AM
#24
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Fred, I found this which pretty much give an answer to all the questions.
Åke
Originally Posted by AO
Guys, the coding plug allows your to switch between one of three maps that are loaded into the LH and EZK. The factory US maps are stup as follows:
- 98 Octane (Cat) - Default
- 98 Octane (Non-Cat)
- 91 Octane
I don't believe there is much if any difference between the two 98 octane maps, and I'm pretty sure it has no functional control over the O2 sensor despite it claiming to be cat/non-cat. If you SharkTuned the car, and then subsequently switched the coding plug, you quite possible would be going back to a "stock" map which might be really bad for your motor. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that this is not some secret power-enhancing switch that the factory forgot to tell us about.
That said, I think you could use the coding plug to your advantage if done correctly.
KillaV (Mike V) runs a rear mount turbo outfitted a switch to toggle between the three coding plug options. The switch allows the driver to select between the three maps. BTW, you can do this on the fly! He has it set up for 5psi, 10psi with methanol inj, and then I think a valet mode.
Mark, if you Shark Tune the car, you might want to set one up for your best tune, then you might want one that has a little timing pulled for really hot days, and then one that has a little advance and maybe a bit more timing for really cool days. Just a suggestion. Or maybe based on elevation? Your call.
But the key is that swapping the coding plug, by itself will not help. The only way to really take advantage of it is via a shark tuner.
Oh and becaus a stroker, Sced, or turbo car have vastly different tunes from stock, I usually advocate that the base tune be copied and pasted into the two other maps in case the coding plug gets messed up. That way, there is no chance of a harmful tune getting inadvertantly selected.
Andrew, silly boy-- this is a Kibort thread, no Sharktuning here. He is talking about stock maps.
But really good info, and will be helpful for other folks. For stock maps, you are correct that there is little difference between the various maps-- except the EZK's 91-oct "Valet map". (Those octane numbers are RON by the way, subtract about 5 points for US numbers).
The only correction is that the coding-plug jumper for the LH Cat/No-cat selection also controls whether the NBO2 sensor and CO-Pot are used. This can have a big effect if not set up correctly-- and may what bit Cheburator when he tried it, above.
At the risk of cluttering up Mark's thread with technical details, here is the skinny on the coding plug, as far as I have worked it out:
Later (90-95) cars that were configured with cats and a relay to cut off fuel to one bank if the ignition failed, were also equipped with a 150-ohm resistor from pin-8 to ground, as a substitute CO-Pot. Earlier cars had pin-8 wired to 12v for unknown reasons, and if the later coding-plug is swapped to an earlier car then the resistor goes up in smoke. Without the ignition relay I believe there is no reason for the 150 ohm resistor.
If the LH is jumpered for Cat mode, but no NBO2-sensor is fitted (or it is disconnected, or broken) then the open-circuit is detected by the LH and the NBO2-input is ignored, but the Cat map is still used. So, for tuning, a switch can be added in series with the NBO2 signal-wire (black) to force open-loop operation for tuning, while staying on the cat map. Use shielded wire if the switch is remotely located.
If the LH's No-cat mode is selected (Pin-6 grounded) then a CO-pot must be fitted and used to set idle mixture, OR the Sharktuner option to "Disable CO-pot in no-cat mode" must be selected-- and the maps adjusted with Sharktuner.
Note: the CO-pot is called an idle adjustment-- and adjusted for proper AFR at idle-- but it has an effect over a wide range of light/moderate load, diminishing as load increases-- just like an idle-mixture adjustment on a carb.
The EZK and LH do indeed read the coding plug "on the fly", which means switches can be used to select EZK maps as Andrew describes. Temperature, octane, and altitude all change what the optimum ignition timing should be, and how much advance you can get away with. We've had our GT set up as Andrew suggests for some time-- SPDT toggle connected to pins 5 & 7 of the coding plug, to ground. (A second switch toggles the LH cat/no-cat maps, and a third disconnects the NBO2 sensor for tuning).
For the LH, there is little reason to change fuel maps, but might be useful for a street-driven track car-- with NBO2 disabled and a slightly richer map for the track.
Cheers,
__________________
Jim & Sue Corenman
Åke
Originally Posted by AO
Guys, the coding plug allows your to switch between one of three maps that are loaded into the LH and EZK. The factory US maps are stup as follows:
- 98 Octane (Cat) - Default
- 98 Octane (Non-Cat)
- 91 Octane
I don't believe there is much if any difference between the two 98 octane maps, and I'm pretty sure it has no functional control over the O2 sensor despite it claiming to be cat/non-cat. If you SharkTuned the car, and then subsequently switched the coding plug, you quite possible would be going back to a "stock" map which might be really bad for your motor. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that this is not some secret power-enhancing switch that the factory forgot to tell us about.
That said, I think you could use the coding plug to your advantage if done correctly.
KillaV (Mike V) runs a rear mount turbo outfitted a switch to toggle between the three coding plug options. The switch allows the driver to select between the three maps. BTW, you can do this on the fly! He has it set up for 5psi, 10psi with methanol inj, and then I think a valet mode.
Mark, if you Shark Tune the car, you might want to set one up for your best tune, then you might want one that has a little timing pulled for really hot days, and then one that has a little advance and maybe a bit more timing for really cool days. Just a suggestion. Or maybe based on elevation? Your call.
But the key is that swapping the coding plug, by itself will not help. The only way to really take advantage of it is via a shark tuner.
Oh and becaus a stroker, Sced, or turbo car have vastly different tunes from stock, I usually advocate that the base tune be copied and pasted into the two other maps in case the coding plug gets messed up. That way, there is no chance of a harmful tune getting inadvertantly selected.
Andrew, silly boy-- this is a Kibort thread, no Sharktuning here. He is talking about stock maps.
But really good info, and will be helpful for other folks. For stock maps, you are correct that there is little difference between the various maps-- except the EZK's 91-oct "Valet map". (Those octane numbers are RON by the way, subtract about 5 points for US numbers).
The only correction is that the coding-plug jumper for the LH Cat/No-cat selection also controls whether the NBO2 sensor and CO-Pot are used. This can have a big effect if not set up correctly-- and may what bit Cheburator when he tried it, above.
At the risk of cluttering up Mark's thread with technical details, here is the skinny on the coding plug, as far as I have worked it out:
- Pin-1 is ground, and is used to jumper other pins to ground.
- Pin-2: always grounded (LH, function unknown)
- Pin-3: Tranny selection-- jumper to ground for manual, open for auto (EZK- controls timing retard during shifting)
- Pin-4: always grounded (LH, function unknown)
- Pin-5: ground for 91-oct, open otherwise (EZK- selects 91-oct RON map)
- Pin-6: ground for No-cat, open for Cat (LH: Selects no-cat map, enables CO-pot, disables NBO2 sensor)
- Pin-7: ground for Cat, open for No-cat (EZK: selects Cat-map)
- Pin 8: either connects to 12v and left open (earlier cars, 87-88) or to the CO-Pot connection (later cars, 90-95-- see note below).
Later (90-95) cars that were configured with cats and a relay to cut off fuel to one bank if the ignition failed, were also equipped with a 150-ohm resistor from pin-8 to ground, as a substitute CO-Pot. Earlier cars had pin-8 wired to 12v for unknown reasons, and if the later coding-plug is swapped to an earlier car then the resistor goes up in smoke. Without the ignition relay I believe there is no reason for the 150 ohm resistor.
If the LH is jumpered for Cat mode, but no NBO2-sensor is fitted (or it is disconnected, or broken) then the open-circuit is detected by the LH and the NBO2-input is ignored, but the Cat map is still used. So, for tuning, a switch can be added in series with the NBO2 signal-wire (black) to force open-loop operation for tuning, while staying on the cat map. Use shielded wire if the switch is remotely located.
If the LH's No-cat mode is selected (Pin-6 grounded) then a CO-pot must be fitted and used to set idle mixture, OR the Sharktuner option to "Disable CO-pot in no-cat mode" must be selected-- and the maps adjusted with Sharktuner.
Note: the CO-pot is called an idle adjustment-- and adjusted for proper AFR at idle-- but it has an effect over a wide range of light/moderate load, diminishing as load increases-- just like an idle-mixture adjustment on a carb.
The EZK and LH do indeed read the coding plug "on the fly", which means switches can be used to select EZK maps as Andrew describes. Temperature, octane, and altitude all change what the optimum ignition timing should be, and how much advance you can get away with. We've had our GT set up as Andrew suggests for some time-- SPDT toggle connected to pins 5 & 7 of the coding plug, to ground. (A second switch toggles the LH cat/no-cat maps, and a third disconnects the NBO2 sensor for tuning).
For the LH, there is little reason to change fuel maps, but might be useful for a street-driven track car-- with NBO2 disabled and a slightly richer map for the track.
Cheers,
__________________
Jim & Sue Corenman
08-05-2018, 05:29 AM
#25
Pro
Paul is telling me he has installed a power chip by John Speak. That explains a lot, the more aggressive ignition advance show as a larger number of ignition knocks by the hammer tool. After reinstalling the stock chip almost no knock readings could be seen. However Paul say the car is performing better with the power chip which I am telling him to continue to use even if he is a little afraid the engine may explode.
Åke
Åke
Maybe John can confirm expected knock count for the chip?
Although the knock count is within tolerance, if there is a choice of*higher*octane fuel it would*help. I would think an injector clean could*help as you never know how good or bad the spray patterns could be.
08-05-2018, 06:33 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
The map that is in the chip that Paul has was developed after Sharktuning several cars on the road. Typically there would be 2 or 3 knock events in a hard pull.
These were no more than 3 degrees, never 6 or more. I also reduced the recovery time that the EZK uses to slowly wind the retard back to stock timing (or whatever new timing is being used). The stock recovery time is much to slow in my opinion.(20 seconds or so)
I have sold many of these chips, in S4, GT and GTS configurations.
Why Paul's car registers so many knocks I don't know. I have made various suggestions to him. I suspect that the knocks he records will be of the 3 degree only.
Something would have to be very wrong with the car if there is detonation, bearing in mind that the EZK retard can be as much as 12 degrees.
These were no more than 3 degrees, never 6 or more. I also reduced the recovery time that the EZK uses to slowly wind the retard back to stock timing (or whatever new timing is being used). The stock recovery time is much to slow in my opinion.(20 seconds or so)
I have sold many of these chips, in S4, GT and GTS configurations.
Why Paul's car registers so many knocks I don't know. I have made various suggestions to him. I suspect that the knocks he records will be of the 3 degree only.
Something would have to be very wrong with the car if there is detonation, bearing in mind that the EZK retard can be as much as 12 degrees.
08-05-2018, 10:59 AM
#27
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
John has provided amazing customer service and help with my application, with his only goal, making me happy! I originally wanted a sharktuner, and rather
than sell me something that I might not "need" he explained, that in a stock set up, his chip was the best way to go.
The chip performs as he claims. there is a very noticeable difference in feel. of course, it does not magically add gobs of HP and torque, but, without, question, you
will feel the difference.
thanks to the rennlist community for the continued information and help. I feel that a solution is at hand, and all is good!
than sell me something that I might not "need" he explained, that in a stock set up, his chip was the best way to go.
The chip performs as he claims. there is a very noticeable difference in feel. of course, it does not magically add gobs of HP and torque, but, without, question, you
will feel the difference.
thanks to the rennlist community for the continued information and help. I feel that a solution is at hand, and all is good!
08-05-2018, 02:10 PM
#28
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Fred, the prizes at the bottom of the box of My-engine-knocks-regularly range from reduced life of rod bearings to rods poking through the oil pan.
What’s the prize for the last few percent of horsepower?
The real answer depends upon where on the load cell map the knocking occurs. If the knocking occurs in cells that are only opperative when you are trying to provoke knock then fine. If the knock occurs in cells that you really want to use, then *I* would pull timing until the knocks are few or zero. On the other hand it also depends upon whether the knock occurs under transient or steady state conditions. I will not tolerate any knocking when the second-order of conditions is stable. On the other hand, I will tolerate a few knocks during huge transitions (e.g. cruising on a hot day at 55 in 5th gear flooring it and getting a few knocks during and immediately after the abrupt throttle opening, etc.)
What’s the prize for the last few percent of horsepower?
The real answer depends upon where on the load cell map the knocking occurs. If the knocking occurs in cells that are only opperative when you are trying to provoke knock then fine. If the knock occurs in cells that you really want to use, then *I* would pull timing until the knocks are few or zero. On the other hand it also depends upon whether the knock occurs under transient or steady state conditions. I will not tolerate any knocking when the second-order of conditions is stable. On the other hand, I will tolerate a few knocks during huge transitions (e.g. cruising on a hot day at 55 in 5th gear flooring it and getting a few knocks during and immediately after the abrupt throttle opening, etc.)
08-05-2018, 02:14 PM
#29
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Absolutely. If the injectors are dirty and unbalanced knock probability goes up. Of course, getting injectors cleaned, balanced, and re-o-ringed is part of a full intake refresh which the OP has been repeatedly admonished to perform but refuses to do.
