Help with Tie Rod End - will not budge
11-11-2017, 10:07 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Help with Tie Rod End - will not budge
I went out to do a, what i thought would be a routine tie rod end change, and 3 hours later.......I give up.
i bought a pickle fork, it didnt work
it's like the tie rod end shaft is welded to the steering arm hole.
i heated it with a propane torch.. still doesn't budge.
hitting it with a 10lb mallet didnt do anything either. i was hitting it from the rearward direction, so i would less likely to bend the steering arm with the forces inline.
i also made a small "gear puller" type tool, out of a steering wheel puller... all it did was bend the shafts of the bolts.
Let me know if there are some good ideas to tackle this. im out of energy and ideas right now.
thanks!
mk
i bought a pickle fork, it didnt work
it's like the tie rod end shaft is welded to the steering arm hole.
i heated it with a propane torch.. still doesn't budge.
hitting it with a 10lb mallet didnt do anything either. i was hitting it from the rearward direction, so i would less likely to bend the steering arm with the forces inline.
i also made a small "gear puller" type tool, out of a steering wheel puller... all it did was bend the shafts of the bolts.
Let me know if there are some good ideas to tackle this. im out of energy and ideas right now.
thanks!
mk
11-11-2017, 10:28 PM
#2
Team Owner
spray with PB blaster,
heat the spindle side ,
then use an air hammer with a hammer head on the spindle,
the tie rod should pop loose, leave the nut on a few turns
wear gloves in case the hammer slips off
heat the spindle side ,
then use an air hammer with a hammer head on the spindle,
the tie rod should pop loose, leave the nut on a few turns
wear gloves in case the hammer slips off
11-11-2017, 10:52 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I have found the pickle fork is a caveman tool. Get a ball joint separator. Very cheap from HF. It's outperformed the pickling caveman antics easily.
11-11-2017, 10:59 PM
#5
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Ball joint separator worked for me but the HF one broke. I ended up using a Gearhead one and it was much more robust and worked like a charm. good luck-Hoi
11-11-2017, 11:09 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
thanks. ill buy the HF separator tomorrow. but i am not hopefull considering how hard i hit the ball joint with a mallet and pickle fork.
i heard that if you wack the side of the spindle arm (steering knuckle), it frees up the tapered shaft via the shock wave sent through the arm. fact or fiction?
i dont know if PB blaster would work. im not a big fan of chemical solutions . just never seen them work on tough jobs, but im willing to try anything at this point.
i heard that if you wack the side of the spindle arm (steering knuckle), it frees up the tapered shaft via the shock wave sent through the arm. fact or fiction?
i dont know if PB blaster would work. im not a big fan of chemical solutions . just never seen them work on tough jobs, but im willing to try anything at this point.
11-12-2017, 12:31 AM
#7
Archive Gatekeeper
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If you whack the steering spindle between two hammers, the momentary deformation can pop it out.
If the HF unit doesn't do it for you, consider the OTC 6297 as an alternative. Never had a joint that wouldn't let go using it, though there have been some where you're cringing, for how tight they were. You can see the 'use' in the threads of the tool...
If the HF unit doesn't do it for you, consider the OTC 6297 as an alternative. Never had a joint that wouldn't let go using it, though there have been some where you're cringing, for how tight they were. You can see the 'use' in the threads of the tool...
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11-12-2017, 12:46 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
If you whack the steering spindle between two hammers, the momentary deformation can pop it out.
If the HF unit doesn't do it for you, consider the OTC 6297 as an alternative. Never had a joint that wouldn't let go using it, though there have been some where you're cringing, for how tight they were. You can see the 'use' in the threads of the tool...
If the HF unit doesn't do it for you, consider the OTC 6297 as an alternative. Never had a joint that wouldn't let go using it, though there have been some where you're cringing, for how tight they were. You can see the 'use' in the threads of the tool...
ill give the double wack with the two hammers , maybe before i go to bed tonight... i hate when the car wins!!!
11-12-2017, 07:26 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
I'll second the OTC tool, nothing worked on one of mine but that one (heat, hammers, pickle fork - nada). And it barely did it. As Rob said, big cringe factor and some distorted threads before it was all done. I din't try Stan's air hammer approach, though.
11-12-2017, 08:23 AM
#11
Team Owner
I just used this method the other day to replace two tie rods ends, about 10 seconds a joint.
it takes more time to,
get the tools out,
put the tool into the hammer,
and connect the air line,
and put on the gloves.
The thing with using the air hammer is that the resultant blow is a lot less than the hammer blow .
This force is transferred into the ball joints and steering rack.
In this particular situation its hard to have a backup hammer to place on the side of the spindle and then hit the other side.
PB blaster will dissolve corrosion,
put a rusty nut into a capfull of the stuff,
let it sit for an hour the nut will come out clean.
it takes more time to,
get the tools out,
put the tool into the hammer,
and connect the air line,
and put on the gloves.
The thing with using the air hammer is that the resultant blow is a lot less than the hammer blow .
This force is transferred into the ball joints and steering rack.
In this particular situation its hard to have a backup hammer to place on the side of the spindle and then hit the other side.
PB blaster will dissolve corrosion,
put a rusty nut into a capfull of the stuff,
let it sit for an hour the nut will come out clean.
11-12-2017, 04:11 PM
#12
Chronic Tool Dropper
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*** Lubricate the threads on the OTC tool before using it *** EP grease. Clean it when you are done.
Use the tool to put some tension on the tapered joint. If it gets to a point where you think it's too much, a good bump with a hammer is almost always enough to break the taper loose. Fit a nut on the end of the balljoint stud to tap on, and to limit the movement some when it finally lets go.
IIRC, the steering arm bolts to the spindle. In a serious case you can remove it with the tie rod end to the bench, where there's more room to safely use the two-hammers method.
I'm not much of a fan of using DIY heat to try and free the tapered stud. There's no way to keep the heat from the steering arm from transferring to the stud unless you can get a LOT of heat in there in a hurry, and pop the joint before the stud expands inside with the transferred heat. Further, the steel steering arm itself doesn't particularly need or want any annealing that's a casual byproduct of the slow heat cycling.
----
Mark -- make sure to at least loosen the tie rod to rack joint before you pop the outer end loose. It's more than a tiny bit easier to let the outer end support the rod as you wrestle with the rack end of the rod where it joins the rack.
Use the tool to put some tension on the tapered joint. If it gets to a point where you think it's too much, a good bump with a hammer is almost always enough to break the taper loose. Fit a nut on the end of the balljoint stud to tap on, and to limit the movement some when it finally lets go.
IIRC, the steering arm bolts to the spindle. In a serious case you can remove it with the tie rod end to the bench, where there's more room to safely use the two-hammers method.
I'm not much of a fan of using DIY heat to try and free the tapered stud. There's no way to keep the heat from the steering arm from transferring to the stud unless you can get a LOT of heat in there in a hurry, and pop the joint before the stud expands inside with the transferred heat. Further, the steel steering arm itself doesn't particularly need or want any annealing that's a casual byproduct of the slow heat cycling.
----
Mark -- make sure to at least loosen the tie rod to rack joint before you pop the outer end loose. It's more than a tiny bit easier to let the outer end support the rod as you wrestle with the rack end of the rod where it joins the rack.
11-13-2017, 04:17 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
*** Lubricate the threads on the OTC tool before using it *** EP grease. Clean it when you are done.
Use the tool to put some tension on the tapered joint. If it gets to a point where you think it's too much, a good bump with a hammer is almost always enough to break the taper loose. Fit a nut on the end of the balljoint stud to tap on, and to limit the movement some when it finally lets go.
IIRC, the steering arm bolts to the spindle. In a serious case you can remove it with the tie rod end to the bench, where there's more room to safely use the two-hammers method.
I'm not much of a fan of using DIY heat to try and free the tapered stud. There's no way to keep the heat from the steering arm from transferring to the stud unless you can get a LOT of heat in there in a hurry, and pop the joint before the stud expands inside with the transferred heat. Further, the steel steering arm itself doesn't particularly need or want any annealing that's a casual byproduct of the slow heat cycling.
----
Mark -- make sure to at least loosen the tie rod to rack joint before you pop the outer end loose. It's more than a tiny bit easier to let the outer end support the rod as you wrestle with the rack end of the rod where it joins the rack.
Use the tool to put some tension on the tapered joint. If it gets to a point where you think it's too much, a good bump with a hammer is almost always enough to break the taper loose. Fit a nut on the end of the balljoint stud to tap on, and to limit the movement some when it finally lets go.
IIRC, the steering arm bolts to the spindle. In a serious case you can remove it with the tie rod end to the bench, where there's more room to safely use the two-hammers method.
I'm not much of a fan of using DIY heat to try and free the tapered stud. There's no way to keep the heat from the steering arm from transferring to the stud unless you can get a LOT of heat in there in a hurry, and pop the joint before the stud expands inside with the transferred heat. Further, the steel steering arm itself doesn't particularly need or want any annealing that's a casual byproduct of the slow heat cycling.
----
Mark -- make sure to at least loosen the tie rod to rack joint before you pop the outer end loose. It's more than a tiny bit easier to let the outer end support the rod as you wrestle with the rack end of the rod where it joins the rack.
and i think what you were suggesting, i did first. i loosened the lock nut up before i started this mini odyssey . i matched the new tie rod to exactly the number of turns and distance. but , as you said , the alignment might be off. boy was it. i measured it before i used the NEW separator , incase i bent the steering knuckle with the barbarian hitting of it with the mallet. with the new tie rod end , the toe-in was about 1/2" too much! Ill try and adjust by making a few turns, but its so far off that ill have to go back and forth too many times to get it right, so its off to get an alignment.
thanks for the help. that tool was what it takes. for $28 bucks vs the $20 dollar barbarian pickle fork, it was a huge deal!! I should have listened.
thanks again,
M
11-13-2017, 01:02 PM
#14
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark,
I was suggesting that you break the inner TIE ROD loose from the rack before you pop the TIE ROD END loose from the steering arm on the knuckle. The locknut between those two pieces comes loose by one turn and gets taped to the tie rod end. This lets you reassemble the two pieces on the bench, and screw the new pieces together to make them the same length from flat face in the tie rod to stud center on the tie rod end.
While the inner TIE RODS are removed and the boots are out of the way, check the radial runout of the RACK in its bushings with a dial indicator. Especially on cars that are riding lower than factory recommendation, normal axial loads from the tie rods and ends applies excessive radial pressure to the rack. The bushings in the rack tube ends wear excessively as a result. Slightly sloppy steering is a byproduct, and leaks at the ends seals are common. A GOOD rebuilt rack is the solution.
I was suggesting that you break the inner TIE ROD loose from the rack before you pop the TIE ROD END loose from the steering arm on the knuckle. The locknut between those two pieces comes loose by one turn and gets taped to the tie rod end. This lets you reassemble the two pieces on the bench, and screw the new pieces together to make them the same length from flat face in the tie rod to stud center on the tie rod end.
While the inner TIE RODS are removed and the boots are out of the way, check the radial runout of the RACK in its bushings with a dial indicator. Especially on cars that are riding lower than factory recommendation, normal axial loads from the tie rods and ends applies excessive radial pressure to the rack. The bushings in the rack tube ends wear excessively as a result. Slightly sloppy steering is a byproduct, and leaks at the ends seals are common. A GOOD rebuilt rack is the solution.
11-13-2017, 02:00 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks bob. i think i understand. what i really wish i took your advice on was the barbaric pounding. woke me up in the middle fo the night visioing all the nasty forces i imparted on the a-ARM and lower ball joints that attach the spindle. UGGG. senseless beating with that pickle fork! never again and those reading this. NEVER use a pickle fork... it makes no sense to wack at this beautiful car like that! its a $28 dolllar tool. ill send it to anyone that wants to borrow it anytime!
anyway, i think i understand what you were suggesting about taking things apart. but i did a very accurate measurement of the position of the old tie rod end and matched it. you can see my marks. the lock washer ended up tight at the same exact spot on the new tie rod. (no oil or leaks on the inner part of the tie rod. very sold and NO leaks what so ever. if you see the pic, the boot looks great and was able to get that solid rubber dust seal to fit in side with a screwdriver and some patience. Looks brandnew now. ).........what i didnt remember was what you mentioned about new parts vs old parts. my alignment was based on position of a blown out tie rod end (who knows for how long) as it really got bad and noticeable on the last race weekend. so, the toe was 1/2" off prior, there was only 1/16" toe in . Im glad i checked it before, and after the pounding, it didnt change a bit, because if didnt and then replaced it, i would have thought the 1/2" change was due to me beating on the tie rod end with the pickle fork.
So, ill do a quick turn or two at the toe adjuster and see where it comes out. if i get it within 1/8", ill leave it and be ok with that setting. drive it and check again. but, if it takes more than 2x, its off to the alignment shop . its a simple check on the rack and i can check the 4 wheel alignment to see if anything has changed over the years.
i
anyway, i think i understand what you were suggesting about taking things apart. but i did a very accurate measurement of the position of the old tie rod end and matched it. you can see my marks. the lock washer ended up tight at the same exact spot on the new tie rod. (no oil or leaks on the inner part of the tie rod. very sold and NO leaks what so ever. if you see the pic, the boot looks great and was able to get that solid rubber dust seal to fit in side with a screwdriver and some patience. Looks brandnew now. ).........what i didnt remember was what you mentioned about new parts vs old parts. my alignment was based on position of a blown out tie rod end (who knows for how long) as it really got bad and noticeable on the last race weekend. so, the toe was 1/2" off prior, there was only 1/16" toe in . Im glad i checked it before, and after the pounding, it didnt change a bit, because if didnt and then replaced it, i would have thought the 1/2" change was due to me beating on the tie rod end with the pickle fork.
So, ill do a quick turn or two at the toe adjuster and see where it comes out. if i get it within 1/8", ill leave it and be ok with that setting. drive it and check again. but, if it takes more than 2x, its off to the alignment shop . its a simple check on the rack and i can check the 4 wheel alignment to see if anything has changed over the years.
i
Mark,
I was suggesting that you break the inner TIE ROD loose from the rack before you pop the TIE ROD END loose from the steering arm on the knuckle. The locknut between those two pieces comes loose by one turn and gets taped to the tie rod end. This lets you reassemble the two pieces on the bench, and screw the new pieces together to make them the same length from flat face in the tie rod to stud center on the tie rod end.
While the inner TIE RODS are removed and the boots are out of the way, check the radial runout of the RACK in its bushings with a dial indicator. Especially on cars that are riding lower than factory recommendation, normal axial loads from the tie rods and ends applies excessive radial pressure to the rack. The bushings in the rack tube ends wear excessively as a result. Slightly sloppy steering is a byproduct, and leaks at the ends seals are common. A GOOD rebuilt rack is the solution.
I was suggesting that you break the inner TIE ROD loose from the rack before you pop the TIE ROD END loose from the steering arm on the knuckle. The locknut between those two pieces comes loose by one turn and gets taped to the tie rod end. This lets you reassemble the two pieces on the bench, and screw the new pieces together to make them the same length from flat face in the tie rod to stud center on the tie rod end.
While the inner TIE RODS are removed and the boots are out of the way, check the radial runout of the RACK in its bushings with a dial indicator. Especially on cars that are riding lower than factory recommendation, normal axial loads from the tie rods and ends applies excessive radial pressure to the rack. The bushings in the rack tube ends wear excessively as a result. Slightly sloppy steering is a byproduct, and leaks at the ends seals are common. A GOOD rebuilt rack is the solution.