Russian Rocket

Matt, I'm probably the only person on this board who was at the Ground Zero when it happened and worked as a medic there for the rest of the week. I lost 3 good friends there and although i experience extreme anger and stess about 9/11 i think this is completely inapropriate to post this material here. But you're a mod so guess above the law. No means of disrespect or anything of that sort, so don't get hostile with me. I volunteer 36 hours a week to save lives in this country, no matter what nationality, race and culture they are. This is an international bord, people of all nationalities go here and some may be from Iraq and some of them may have lost a family because of a mistakes of American Soldiers. From that point of view your thread is very inappropriate to the point of not involving POLITICS, RACE or NATIONALISM threads on this board. War is a war, it doesn't go by the book and i understand what that guy did. And i would have done exactly the SAME THING. But i would also go and face the law if necessary. when bullets fly above you head you don't give a **** about your country and laws, your only HOPE and most IMPORTANT thing in your life is your fellow soldiers. And hell, i'd give 2 lives to save them if i was in his boots. But there are also laws which he broke and yes, no matter how stupid this sounds he should face them. I'm pretty sure that the truth of the situation that happened at the moment of "crime" is only known by few, and as usual we are given the "wattered down" heroic description. I hate politics and i hate war, i'm going to be a part of Air Force reserves next summer, but only to become a medic who saves lives and not takes them. Although people on this board seem to be pretty old, comments are immature and discriminative to the Side "america is always right". And this just asks for a big pissing fight, is that what you want as a moderator? I think this thread can create big hostility between some members that we never want. So again, i suggest you either lock it with only the link and throw it on top of the thread page and leave out all the comments. We have our different views about politics and other Touchy issues and this has nothing to do with a Car discussion board. And i'm pretty sure this board being domminant white American i'll recieve "get away from here you dumb commie freak" comments but that's another story. I didn't vote as this kind ot thread has no place in the international forum. And i'm pretty sure that guy will be let go, and if i was him i'd do the same thing no matter what nation i was fighting for. And if that story is true that man is a hero of his soldiers, but "controversial" hero in the eyes if the world.
Vlad.

Matt O.

Well, I wrote a response but accidently hit the back button and it was deleted.

Basically, I think you are wrong in your views of this post and of Col. West. You are not getting a "wattered down heroic view" as you stated, you are getting it nearly directly from the man who was there, who reported on the happenings himself -- Lt. Col. West.

I am sorry for your loss on 9/11. However, if you would have been on this forum at that time you would have seen many of the international readers you are trying to protect (and even some Americans) waste no time in spouting their anti-American views on this forum. Even without that, I have no moral or ethical dilemas to posting this here.

And if the moderators do have a problem with that (which by the way, I am not one), they will delete it or ban me. Until then, I will continue to support Lt. Col. West in any way I know how.

Also, for what it's worth, I think there are several Rennlisters who were at or near ground zero when it happened, and more then one share in your pain of losing a friend or family member on that day.

Kind regards,
Matt

Russian Rocket

Ground Zero changed my life a lot, i was devastated and till now the nights i spent there with my squad haunt me Yes, i haven't been on this forum for too long and maybe missed all the negative support of 9/11 and i'm glad i did as that is a very touchy subject to me. I find it an honor to live, study and work in this country but i also understand how this post might be offending to some. You're a true patriot and i respect you at that, i have no country to be proud of as i'm a part of the lost generation that resulted when the "party" was over, so i'm always neutral on every politically related subject i face. I guess you have your reasons to post a thread like this and i'll leave my opinion asside for the sake of friendship as you're a good man with a big heart. With all respect, Vlad.

p.s. didn't see you're not a moderator, thought those blue things under the nick meant that. Sorry bout that.

Matt O.

Vlad, you don't need to leave your opinion aside, as friends can be friends while having difference of opinions. Most everyone on this forum I would consider friends, even though much of the time everyone disagrees.

I wouldn't sell yourself shot in saying you don't have a country you can be proud of. It doesn't have to be where you are born, or even live. It's just where your heart is.

My reasons to post a thread like this are much different then probably everyone's reason for signing the petition, or not signing. One reason I have is that Lt. Col. West could be my brother, friend, dad, cousin... etc. It could be me. The argument that "it was a crime, do the time" doesn't fly with me, and here's why...

Adultery is a crime - when's the last time you heard of someone getting convicted of adultery? On the other side of the coin, if a murderer has a gun to your mom's head and you have the ability to stop him by killing him, that is not a crime. Those two extremes illustrate that the "law" isn't always right, especially in the pressure cooker that is war, and knowing that Col. West did not shoot at or injury this Iraqi in any way, this "crime" he committed to me is invalid. If 12 of his men were in that room with him, and this Iraqi had a detonator that would trigger a bomb to kill all 12 of his men right there in front of him, and Col. West shot his gun to scare this terrorist into dropping the detonator, he would be a hero to everyone. In fact, people would no doubt wonder why he didn't just shoot the man.

But because his men were not in the room, and in fact doing their job and walking into a potential ambush, Col. West's actions saved them from possible death at that ambush.

The fact that you and I admittedly would do the exact same thing given the same situation also is enough for me to support this man when I think the "laws" on books are useless in this particular situation.

Kind regards,
Matt

Rich Sandor

I'm afraid the Ruskie Rocket raises a really strong point.

This specific forum is supposed to be about 944 specific topics. Iraq and 9/11 have nothing to do with Porsches and although I highly doubt any 944s were ever exported to Iraq, there is still the issue of alienating any forum users who disagree with Americans being in Iraq.

I think it's agreed that the majority of posters on here are American and support the soldiers, even if they don't support the war effort. I would hate to drive away fellow 944 owners/lovers from the board because they feel like outcasts for disagreeing on such topics.

This really should have been in OT.

But anyways, I've spent a lot of time on both US and Canadian military bases. Both organisations (isn't that an oxymoron) are remarkably bureucratic and stress political correctness whenever in the public eye. This means following rules to a tee. Of course, they'll make a big deal about it the media catches on, but in my experience the punishments usually suit the crime.

Peckster: Regarding the pilots that killed our troops; have you ever flown a fighter jet over the desert at night, and had firearms go off beneath you? I thought not. What was supposed to happen to them? Did you expect them to get thrown in jail for doing something they thought was self defense? Are you seriously naive enough to think it was AT ALL the pilots faults for the friendly fire - and not a lapse in the chain of command and communication?

The media indirectly blamed the pilots, by constantly putting them in the spotlight and reporting on them, instead of the real causes of the incident!

Back on topic: I signed twice. I don't know what I would have done in his shoes, but I stand by what he did, and I'm not even American!

ELLSSUU

Happy to sign for 2 and send to several family members to also sign.


Thanks for posting Matt.

Matt O.

Rich, no offense, but you say that while this very moment there is a thread about making alcoholic drinks (no offense to Spacecowboy either). The OT thread in this forum topic has been beaten to death. It was my call to post it, and I may or may not have made the right decision depending upon who you ask. But one thing I do know for certain is that out of any OT threads I or anyone has ever posted in this forum, this one is the most worthy.

That, and the fact that if by posting this helps to get a few more names on the petition and recognition for Col. West's actions (because the stupid news channels care too much about Michael Jackson) at the possible (yet improbable) expense of some Iraqi Porsche owners' feelings (when this isn't even an anti-Iraqi post) then so be it.

Kind regards,
Matt

Peckster

Well, no, I haven't flown a fighter jet, so I guess that makes me incapable of discussing this in your eyes. But I'm impressed that you're a fighter jet pilot, you must be because you know all about it.

No, I am not naive, far from it. And no, I never for an instant expected anything to happen to them, any more than I expect something to happen to the guy in this petition. That was my point.

Third, from what I have read, there is no way self defence could have justified what they did. Go back and read the evidence. The lapse in the chain was also obviously a factor, but that wasn't my point.

My point from the beginning is that the army has rules for a reason. The army can't say, well, we have these rules but they're really open to interpretation, so don't worry about them. You boys just go ahead and do what you have to do.

Russian Rocket

Matt, my nick pretty much summs it up where my heart is. i am proud to be born in the Russia which is former PART of USSR but that system is dead and i see no reason to praise it as i can easily see good and bad points of that system the same way i can see in the U.S. and other countries. Russia now is a very different thing then it was when it belonged to USSR. I was never biased against any nationality in the world and all i want is Peace on Earth, and not trough violence. Unfortunately there is a big riddle to solve in order to make everyone happy and Homo Sapiens haven't achieved that Zenith
Internet can augment things and therefore i tend not to touch the "hot spots" as it always results in a fight without a dialogue but a whole bunch of dumb arguments.
bottom line is: i didn't sign that petition only because it was posted here.
I clearly support the commander and understand his actions. I sent the MAIN PAGE of that pettition to my friends and they gladly signed it. This forum is not a place to spread any kind of political Petitions. If you justify it with saying that someone esle did it in anti american way, why repeat it from a different view???? Anyways, i hope you understand the point where i'm coming from
Vlad.

Matt O.

Vlad,

I do see your point and respect it. I did not say my justitification for signing that or posting it was because others posted anti- American threads, as I mentioned. I would have posted it regardless.

I do appreciate you sending it to your friends. Thank you for your insight.

Kind regards,
Matt

Rich Sandor

Pecker, I've never flown a fighter jet as PIC, but let's just say I have come home from a night-cross-country with bullet holes in my wing and no fuel in one tank.

Matt: I don't see any rules rules about not being allowed to post "free col-west" or "how to mix a drink" threads - even though both should be OT. And you're right - your initial request had nothing to do with anti-iraqi or pro-war sentiments. Those just kinda sprung out from us taking it all way off topic.

anyway, I see there's well over 100,000 signatures. when do we find out what happens to the colonel?

Matt O.

I suppose just watch the news. If I hear something else that isn't in the news that is important, I'll let you guys know (unless anyone has a problem with that).

Thanks,
Matt