FS- Aluminum Torque Tube
11-10-2003, 11:09 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Yeah Dave - I've tried to PM you before unsuccessfully, the other folder(s) must be maxing out your total limit....
To the interested: I've seen the torque tube he makes - very nice product and well engineered. No affiliation, other than wanting to get one as soon as the budget permits...Al
To the interested: I've seen the torque tube he makes - very nice product and well engineered. No affiliation, other than wanting to get one as soon as the budget permits...Al
11-11-2003, 01:01 AM
#17
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Winston Salem
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quote originally posted by 1990_S2
I guess if you've got to replace the tube due to a failure this could make sense, but, I'm skeptical of the weight reduction benefits. The torque tube is low in the car, almost as low as you can get; likely inches below the CG. Why spend money there?
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1990_S2. Sorry, but I thought I was answering you're question.
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quote originally posted by 1990_S2
Guarantee, you'll go faster sooner, accelerate your LEARNING, by spending the time and money on your head not your hardware. For advanced drivers, champions so to speak, please ignore this commentary altogether.
(about an earlier post)
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You are absolutely right about drivers education! You should never pass up an opportunity to learn. The combination of drivers education and hardware is the ultimate way to increase speed and drivers that are educated in both how to drive, and basic laws of physics that govern the car they drive and can apply it to both, can be even better. You should NEVER ignore your hardware anymore than you would ignore your drivers education. At Indy, an Einstein in a Yugo will still be in last place but an Einstein in a Formula 1 just may have a chance. (you may substitute Einstein for winning driver of your choice). And on the flip side, somebody's grandmother in a Formula car isn't exactly the way to go either. A champion understands the need for both drivers education and hardware/education. Besides, your original question was a hardware question.
quote originally posted by 1990_S2
I guess if you've got to replace the tube due to a failure this could make sense, but, I'm skeptical of the weight reduction benefits. The torque tube is low in the car, almost as low as you can get; likely inches below the CG. Why spend money there?
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1990_S2. Sorry, but I thought I was answering you're question.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote originally posted by 1990_S2
Guarantee, you'll go faster sooner, accelerate your LEARNING, by spending the time and money on your head not your hardware. For advanced drivers, champions so to speak, please ignore this commentary altogether.
(about an earlier post)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are absolutely right about drivers education! You should never pass up an opportunity to learn. The combination of drivers education and hardware is the ultimate way to increase speed and drivers that are educated in both how to drive, and basic laws of physics that govern the car they drive and can apply it to both, can be even better. You should NEVER ignore your hardware anymore than you would ignore your drivers education. At Indy, an Einstein in a Yugo will still be in last place but an Einstein in a Formula 1 just may have a chance. (you may substitute Einstein for winning driver of your choice). And on the flip side, somebody's grandmother in a Formula car isn't exactly the way to go either. A champion understands the need for both drivers education and hardware/education. Besides, your original question was a hardware question.
11-11-2003, 01:20 AM
#19
Dave said less than half a stock rebuild, so under $925. I'd like to see some pictures of what it looks like too. As far as downfalls, I don't think there could be any. If something is overengineered, that's bad. If you can take down the weight and maintain integrity, then you did a better job than the factory.
Dave, is the torque tube stressed at all, or just a carrier and support for the driveshaft?
I doubt you'd be able to get any quantitaive difference in acceleration or cornering abilities, but every little bit helps. In our FSAE car we're moving the brake calipers down about an inch, just to get the CG that much lower. 25#'s there, 5#'s here, and it adds up. Also, it should have no effect on clutch life, unless the bearings Dave uses somehow effect the driveshaft and therefore the clutch.
Dave, is the torque tube stressed at all, or just a carrier and support for the driveshaft?
I doubt you'd be able to get any quantitaive difference in acceleration or cornering abilities, but every little bit helps. In our FSAE car we're moving the brake calipers down about an inch, just to get the CG that much lower. 25#'s there, 5#'s here, and it adds up. Also, it should have no effect on clutch life, unless the bearings Dave uses somehow effect the driveshaft and therefore the clutch.
11-11-2003, 10:22 AM
#20
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The only affect on clutch life is a new tube that eliminates vibrations from bad bearings. You can put the old tube back up when you do the clutch and if the bearings are bad in the tube, you'll be stressing the clutch center. So, either my tube, a new factory tube, or a rebuilt would be equal in this respect in eliminating clutch center stress.
The tube is stressed just like the factory tube in that it holds the transmission in spatial relationship to the engine. The equal and opposite reaction of the system is that as the driveshaft is turned by the engine, the transmission tries to resist the engine in the opposite direction. It's an inertia effect, so in that sense, yes it is stressed. What you also need to take into consideration here is that if the transmission totally resisted the torque of the engine, it would turn with equal force in the opposite direction, but in reality it doesn't because most of that same force is translated into rotational motion of the axles. The maximum "stress" that the tube recieves is at actual start of motion of the car (launch). After that, the stress levels go way down, and it depends on how hard you launch as to how much stress the tube will have to take. That said, my tube is from 3.5" dia 6061T6, 1/4 wall aluminum. Driveshafts for Pro Stock drag cars (and we know how much shock a drag car drivetrain takes) are made from the same alloy, but 3" dia and >>1/8"<< wall. Note that my tube is larger dia (less leverage force from the engine) and thicker wall (more "meat" to resist the force). The best of both worlds and it's lighter to boot.
I have both of these tube available as an introductory offer at $850 each. Future ones will be higher. Sounds like a lot, but each tube takes about 20 hours to produce. With labor running at about $50/hour, that's $1000 in labor alone if you had it made, and that doesn't even take the cost of aluminum and materials into account. I do not use low temp nylon in the bearing spacers like some other tubes do, my stuff is rated to over 450degrees, remember, the exhaust system goes very near the tube. The bearings are the factory specified C4 clearance, with high temp grease, sealed, and solid mounted. The factory bearings are mounted in steel "cups" located by hard rubber rings in the tube.
If you use this tube and have any issues with it, I will gladly correct any problems with the tube you have, but I seriously doubt there will be any with the tube. It is overengineered to a degree to cover the hp fanatics that seem to crop up in the 951 world.
The tube is stressed just like the factory tube in that it holds the transmission in spatial relationship to the engine. The equal and opposite reaction of the system is that as the driveshaft is turned by the engine, the transmission tries to resist the engine in the opposite direction. It's an inertia effect, so in that sense, yes it is stressed. What you also need to take into consideration here is that if the transmission totally resisted the torque of the engine, it would turn with equal force in the opposite direction, but in reality it doesn't because most of that same force is translated into rotational motion of the axles. The maximum "stress" that the tube recieves is at actual start of motion of the car (launch). After that, the stress levels go way down, and it depends on how hard you launch as to how much stress the tube will have to take. That said, my tube is from 3.5" dia 6061T6, 1/4 wall aluminum. Driveshafts for Pro Stock drag cars (and we know how much shock a drag car drivetrain takes) are made from the same alloy, but 3" dia and >>1/8"<< wall. Note that my tube is larger dia (less leverage force from the engine) and thicker wall (more "meat" to resist the force). The best of both worlds and it's lighter to boot.
I have both of these tube available as an introductory offer at $850 each. Future ones will be higher. Sounds like a lot, but each tube takes about 20 hours to produce. With labor running at about $50/hour, that's $1000 in labor alone if you had it made, and that doesn't even take the cost of aluminum and materials into account. I do not use low temp nylon in the bearing spacers like some other tubes do, my stuff is rated to over 450degrees, remember, the exhaust system goes very near the tube. The bearings are the factory specified C4 clearance, with high temp grease, sealed, and solid mounted. The factory bearings are mounted in steel "cups" located by hard rubber rings in the tube.
If you use this tube and have any issues with it, I will gladly correct any problems with the tube you have, but I seriously doubt there will be any with the tube. It is overengineered to a degree to cover the hp fanatics that seem to crop up in the 951 world.
11-11-2003, 12:24 PM
#22
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There are no trade offs other than there are no collision lugs on the tube (their value is questionable and your wrench will love that they are gone) and it's 25# lighter than stock.
I will be making one for my car this winter, but like most guys, it will be installed when I go in for another purpose, namely the clutch. That's on tap for early spring. The 931 has to get running before I put the 951 up on jacks for a while (more than a tube and clutch will be done).
I will be making one for my car this winter, but like most guys, it will be installed when I go in for another purpose, namely the clutch. That's on tap for early spring. The 931 has to get running before I put the 951 up on jacks for a while (more than a tube and clutch will be done).
11-11-2003, 12:50 PM
#26
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The safety wired socket head cap screws locate the bearing carriers. All bolts are drilled for safety wire, including the shifter screws and ones on the flange to the bellhousing. As you can see, none of the original tube is left other than the bellhousing and driveshaft. Like I said before, these two tubes only will go for this price, the future ones will be higher.
11-11-2003, 12:55 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
Dave,
Can I pay in installments?
If all my money wasn't going toward my suspension, I would be all over this deal. I will be contacting you when I'm in the position to purchase one of these.
Many thanks for developing a much needed/improved replacement part for our cars.
-J
Can I pay in installments?
If all my money wasn't going toward my suspension, I would be all over this deal. I will be contacting you when I'm in the position to purchase one of these.
Many thanks for developing a much needed/improved replacement part for our cars.
-J
08-14-2006, 05:56 PM
#28
I'm going to drag up this really old thread as my torque tube bearings are absolutely shot and I'd rather goto a lighter setup while I've got it apart. Dave, any chance I can get you to build another one of these?
08-14-2006, 06:54 PM
#30
His last login was June 16th this year. Figured he'd get a topic notification from rennlist about this and hopefully chime in, I know of atleast one other person besides me interested in this.
Last edited by MPD47; 08-15-2006 at 12:09 AM.