Gates blue timing belt price
#46
Correct, they are improved constantly so amount of R&D on them is huge and as an evolution lasting from 1945 till today it has to be good. Speaking of which Kevlar was developed in 1965 and was used in racing tires since 1970s. Interesting it never found its permanent way in timing belts if it is such a natural improvement.
So you are implying that only DuPont™ Kevlar® is the aramid fibre that is next/current step, and other same products such as Akzo's Twaron which is the exact same thing or belt company's own version of fibre materials that their research brought up in decades of development is not?
The timing belt is a unit that acts and work exactly as it's supposed to and fiber material used in it is tuned and tuned again to achieve exactly what needs to be achieved and that is why multi million $ cars, boats, machinery and every possible belt driven engine on this planet is using them with close to none belt related failure rate.
So you are implying that only DuPont™ Kevlar® is the aramid fibre that is next/current step, and other same products such as Akzo's Twaron which is the exact same thing or belt company's own version of fibre materials that their research brought up in decades of development is not?
The timing belt is a unit that acts and work exactly as it's supposed to and fiber material used in it is tuned and tuned again to achieve exactly what needs to be achieved and that is why multi million $ cars, boats, machinery and every possible belt driven engine on this planet is using them with close to none belt related failure rate.
As for the timing in regards to its finding its way into the timing belt market, it's not like kevlar/aramid timing belts are new to the world just because they're new to you. Like many other consumer level automotive advances, they trail racing development in the classic "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" fashion.
#47
Yeah, when chains go it's not pretty. But in my experience, chains last the life of a "normal" American engine. A least before people junk em. Now if you go 200k, yeah, you need to change that thing. Did my Suburban at 180k, it didn't really need it, it was a little loose, but I did it to prevent issues if it went. I know many who are going 250k on their original.
I'm not REALLY serious, the R&D would be cost preventive, and if the design wasn't just right, it could be as serious an issue as the belts.
But wouldn't it be nice to just have to worry about it every 150k? Instead of 30k? Course I guess it's just academic on a 30 year old car anyway.
I never really understood the whole belt thing, sure, they are quieter in most cases, but how many belts have you heard of failing compared to chains in your lifetime, the BMW issues aside?
Pipe dreams.....
I'm not REALLY serious, the R&D would be cost preventive, and if the design wasn't just right, it could be as serious an issue as the belts.
But wouldn't it be nice to just have to worry about it every 150k? Instead of 30k? Course I guess it's just academic on a 30 year old car anyway.
I never really understood the whole belt thing, sure, they are quieter in most cases, but how many belts have you heard of failing compared to chains in your lifetime, the BMW issues aside?
Pipe dreams.....
#48
Ferrari, Bugatti, Harley, you name it, all use black belts and moving harley with a fat biker + fat passenger from zero to 100mph at WOT will generate a LOT more torque than few springs countering well oiled lobes of camshaft(s).
As for the timing in regards to its finding its way into the timing belt market, it's not like kevlar/aramid timing belts are new to the world just because they're new to you. Like many other consumer level automotive advances, they trail racing development in the classic "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" fashion.
I don't care what is in the belt as long as it is doing its job as supposed. All standard belts more than exceed that so paying 5 belts price for one with blue logo and additional other fancy company trade mark that breaks for no apparent reason just the same, is not something I would advise. But to each its own.
I had a 944 belt failure and bent valves on mine, but it was due to missjudging of rollers on my part when doing the belt job. Interestingly enough even though it happened at highway speed, damage to belt was not as extreme as I have expected. Standard belts are tough as nails.
The real belt strenght benefit on 8v cars could be obtained by converting to 16V belt which is wider.
#49
With the high rate of water pump, roller, and belt failure's I read about here, I have to believe the belts are being over tighten. Food for thought, I've have seen timing belts on other cars so loose that you can slide them off the pulley with your pinky finger and those cars run without jumping timing.
#50
We use Kevlar (aramid fibers) in my industry as high-strength wrapping tape around subsea flexible pipelines that see pressures in excess of 1000 bar in extreme environments, where the tape's job is to keep the armour wrapping wires from laterally bucking under pressure. Not saying a belt made with this stuff isn't insanely stronger (depends on manufacturer implementation of the technology), but it's been proven in countless other industries for decades. I understand about cord being a common failure, but like I said in my last post, I've personally seen failures that involved shearing teeth - not always from a seized roller. I'm curious to see real world failure rate of blue belts, one case on rennlist doesn't say very much.
#51
This is the part of the conversation where you offer up some evidence or at least a compelling argument to support your theory.
Do you really think the color of the belt makes a difference?
Yes the name 'Gates' does in fact mean something, as they've been around nearly a century and I've spent a lifetime seeing the logo on various automotive and industrial rubber bits. By your logic, the name 'Porsche' has the same credibility as the name 'Kia'.
I don't care what is in the belt as long as it is doing its job as supposed. All standard belts more than exceed that so paying 5 belts price for one with blue logo and additional other fancy company trade mark that breaks for no apparent reason just the same, is not something I would advise. But to each its own.
Having worked with composites, I know good and well that kevlar is fairly pricey and wears tooling faster than say nylon/polyester. This means it's both more expensive to buy, and more expensive to work with. Factor in that any company producing any belt is obviously doing so for a profit, and the pricing isn't surprising in the least.
Do I wish it were cheaper? Sure, I wish everything were cheaper. Am I going to cry about having to pay to play with newer tech? Nope.
#52
There could be a lot of reasons for that, to include the belt sucks or he couldn't source them. I wouldn't infer the quality of a belt because of that. There is another side to that story.
#53
This whole thread is hilarious. Timing belt fails in part because of it's material, someone makes a stronger belt, we complain because how dare someone make an unproven belt.
I'll take the kevlar, thanks.
I'll take the kevlar, thanks.
#54
Not knowing these particular engines very well, I tried -really- hard to be open to the possibility that some quirky Porsche design flaw would make them benefit from a weaker mechanical fuse of a belt. Almost sorry I even questioned it.
#55
What does the hydraulic tensioner do other than compensate for the expansion of the head and block ? There's a tensioning method for 944 engines that achieves the same thing.
#56
When you set the belt to proper tension during a timing belt job, the belt and engine are cold (room temperature/ambient). But when the engine is up to temperature, the belt will also be warming up too and stretching more. But the engine and belt materials expand/contract at different rates.
So the belt doesn't want to stretch quite as much as the engine will expand at running temperature, but is forced to because of the parts fitment...and eventually the stretch doesn't go back.
All 944 engines have a "manual" or "fixed" belt tensioner. The 87+ "spring style" only sets the initial tension, but you lock it in place and it is the same fixed position forever, until you change it again manually.
The hydraulic 968 tensioner allows for sudden tension load changes due to hard acceleration and high RPM, and also compensates for temperature...the belt itself basically dictates the tension fluctuation.
#57
You pretty much nailed it with 'hilarious'.
Not knowing these particular engines very well, I tried -really- hard to be open to the possibility that some quirky Porsche design flaw would make them benefit from a weaker mechanical fuse of a belt. Almost sorry I even questioned it.
Not knowing these particular engines very well, I tried -really- hard to be open to the possibility that some quirky Porsche design flaw would make them benefit from a weaker mechanical fuse of a belt. Almost sorry I even questioned it.
#58
It went from folks saying it simply wasn't worth it, which is fine and dandy, to it could possibly maybe almost damage your engine or be black painted blue or blacks could be blues in disguise. Just giving the naysayers ample opportunity to offer up some sort of tangible argument.
#59
It seems like for our cars, there isn't really anything objective when it comes to real world durability. Nobody has done scientific measurements between the two. It's a matter of preference/personal forecast until there is actual proof beyond conjecture.
#60
Things I've discovered not to post about on 944 forums unless you want to start a s*it storm of disagreements.
1) Oil weight/type
2) Oil brand/type
3) Spark Plugs
4) Gates racing belts
5) Tires
6) How to get more HP from a N/A
7) Adding Turbo to a N/A
8) Automatics
9) LSX swaps
10) Whether you HAVE to change your belt every 3/30
11) Aftermarket steering wheels (tho MOMO seems to be pretty safe, mostly)
12) Wheels, offsets, what looks best on what
So, if you want a lively discussion, feel free to bring any of the above up.
1) Oil weight/type
2) Oil brand/type
3) Spark Plugs
4) Gates racing belts
5) Tires
6) How to get more HP from a N/A
7) Adding Turbo to a N/A
8) Automatics
9) LSX swaps
10) Whether you HAVE to change your belt every 3/30
11) Aftermarket steering wheels (tho MOMO seems to be pretty safe, mostly)
12) Wheels, offsets, what looks best on what
So, if you want a lively discussion, feel free to bring any of the above up.