'88 vs. '87 944 NA:Newbie Question
10-06-2003, 01:19 PM
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'88 vs. '87 944 NA:Newbie Question
This is my first post to the water cooled forum so pardon my newbieness:
What are the specific differences between the 1988 and 1987 944 NA?
I do understand that there is a slight (158 vs 150) difference in HP and that 5th gear is shorter in the '88. Also, why the difference in HP (compression, etc...)?
I have done a search, but only came up with limited information. Any good FAQ's that you may recommend?
What are the specific differences between the 1988 and 1987 944 NA?
I do understand that there is a slight (158 vs 150) difference in HP and that 5th gear is shorter in the '88. Also, why the difference in HP (compression, etc...)?
I have done a search, but only came up with limited information. Any good FAQ's that you may recommend?
10-06-2003, 02:09 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
My source of information is the factory manuals.
Prior to 1988, Porsche made two versions of the 944/924S, one for US and one for ROW. The ROW version had higher compression, no cat, etc. The Euro specs were:
156 HP at 5,800 rpm, 151 ft-lbs at 3,000 rpm, 10.6:1 compression.
(Note that I am using SAE net spec.s throughout, DIN give slightly higher values, which leads to come confusion.)
US spec. cars were:
143 HP @ 5,500 rpm, 137 ft-lbs @ 3,000 rpm, 9.5:1 compression.
The US spec cars got a different DME than the euro cars, so had different ignition and timing maps in addition to a cat, oxygen sensor and a higher "fuel economy" 5th gear set.
In 1988, Porsche phased out the different models for different markets and built one "world" car which had the same spec.s regardless of whether it used a cat or not. The US-specific 5th gear was dropped. Compression was lowered on the euro models and raised on the US models to 10.2:1, and all models received a revised DME. I don't know if the cam profile was changed, but note the differences in peak power rpms:
1988 world spec car: 158 HP @ 5,900 rpm, 155 ft-lbs @ 4,500 rpm
The 1989 car received a 2.7 L engine (increased bore) and compression increase to 10.9:1, but gained a modest HP increase to 163 HP (I think it had a larger torque increase, but can't find those numbers offhand.
The 1987-1988 944S was also a world car, gained DOHC and knock sensors, 10.9:1 compression, and produced 188 HP @ 6000 rpm, 170 ft-lbs at 4300 rpm.
The 1989 944S2 received the larger 3.0 L engine (bored and stroked), kept the 10.9:1 comnpression and produced 208HP @ 5800 rpm, 207 ft-lbs @ 4100 rpm.
Prior to 1988, Porsche made two versions of the 944/924S, one for US and one for ROW. The ROW version had higher compression, no cat, etc. The Euro specs were:
156 HP at 5,800 rpm, 151 ft-lbs at 3,000 rpm, 10.6:1 compression.
(Note that I am using SAE net spec.s throughout, DIN give slightly higher values, which leads to come confusion.)
US spec. cars were:
143 HP @ 5,500 rpm, 137 ft-lbs @ 3,000 rpm, 9.5:1 compression.
The US spec cars got a different DME than the euro cars, so had different ignition and timing maps in addition to a cat, oxygen sensor and a higher "fuel economy" 5th gear set.
In 1988, Porsche phased out the different models for different markets and built one "world" car which had the same spec.s regardless of whether it used a cat or not. The US-specific 5th gear was dropped. Compression was lowered on the euro models and raised on the US models to 10.2:1, and all models received a revised DME. I don't know if the cam profile was changed, but note the differences in peak power rpms:
1988 world spec car: 158 HP @ 5,900 rpm, 155 ft-lbs @ 4,500 rpm
The 1989 car received a 2.7 L engine (increased bore) and compression increase to 10.9:1, but gained a modest HP increase to 163 HP (I think it had a larger torque increase, but can't find those numbers offhand.
The 1987-1988 944S was also a world car, gained DOHC and knock sensors, 10.9:1 compression, and produced 188 HP @ 6000 rpm, 170 ft-lbs at 4300 rpm.
The 1989 944S2 received the larger 3.0 L engine (bored and stroked), kept the 10.9:1 comnpression and produced 208HP @ 5800 rpm, 207 ft-lbs @ 4100 rpm.
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10-06-2003, 02:53 PM
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GReat answer~!
ahhh yeh.
What He said.
Now, here is a guy who has done his homework!
HMMMmmmm, I have to do this, can you tell me what to torque setting is for the upper most left hand side tail light screw in an 89-1/4 modle year just before all he up grades will be?
Just kidding of course.
Great answer above though!
TaboII
What He said.
Now, here is a guy who has done his homework!
HMMMmmmm, I have to do this, can you tell me what to torque setting is for the upper most left hand side tail light screw in an 89-1/4 modle year just before all he up grades will be?
Just kidding of course.
Great answer above though!
TaboII
10-06-2003, 03:23 PM
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Thank you Waterguy.
That is exactly what I was looking for. Was there any differences in vehicle weight for the different years? Also, with the differences in compression were there any changes to the cooling systems?
Very interesting on the peak power/torque RPM's. Much lower torque band on the '87 than '88.
That is exactly what I was looking for. Was there any differences in vehicle weight for the different years? Also, with the differences in compression were there any changes to the cooling systems?
Very interesting on the peak power/torque RPM's. Much lower torque band on the '87 than '88.
10-06-2003, 04:46 PM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Originally posted by Waterguy
My source of information is the factory manuals.
Prior to 1988, Porsche made two versions of the 944/924S, one for US and one for ROW. The ROW version had higher compression, no cat, etc. The Euro specs were:
156 HP at 5,800 rpm, 151 ft-lbs at 3,000 rpm, 10.6:1 compression.
(Note that I am using SAE net spec.s throughout, DIN give slightly higher values, which leads to come confusion.)
US spec. cars were:
143 HP @ 5,500 rpm, 137 ft-lbs @ 3,000 rpm, 9.5:1 compression.
The US spec cars got a different DME than the euro cars, so had different ignition and timing maps in addition to a cat, oxygen sensor and a higher "fuel economy" 5th gear set.
In 1988, Porsche phased out the different mo
dels for different markets and built one "world" car which had the same spec.s regardless of whether it used a cat or not. The US-specific 5th gear was dropped. Compression was lowered on the euro models and raised on the US models to 10.2:1, and all models received a revised DME. I don't know if the cam profile was changed, but note the differences in peak power rpms:
1988 world spec car: 158 HP @ 5,900 rpm, 155 ft-lbs @ 4,500 rpm
The 1989 car received a 2.7 L engine (increased bore) and compression increase to 10.9:1, but gained a modest HP increase to 163 HP (I think it had a larger torque increase, but can't find those numbers offhand.
The 1987-1988 944S was also a world car, gained DOHC and knock sensors, 10.9:1 compression, and produced 188 HP @ 6000 rpm, 170 ft-lbs at 4300 rpm.
The 1989 944S2 received the larger 3.0 L engine (bored and stroked), kept the 10.9:1 comnpression and produced 208HP @ 5800 rpm, 207 ft-lbs @ 4100 rpm.
My source of information is the factory manuals.
Prior to 1988, Porsche made two versions of the 944/924S, one for US and one for ROW. The ROW version had higher compression, no cat, etc. The Euro specs were:
156 HP at 5,800 rpm, 151 ft-lbs at 3,000 rpm, 10.6:1 compression.
(Note that I am using SAE net spec.s throughout, DIN give slightly higher values, which leads to come confusion.)
US spec. cars were:
143 HP @ 5,500 rpm, 137 ft-lbs @ 3,000 rpm, 9.5:1 compression.
The US spec cars got a different DME than the euro cars, so had different ignition and timing maps in addition to a cat, oxygen sensor and a higher "fuel economy" 5th gear set.
In 1988, Porsche phased out the different mo
dels for different markets and built one "world" car which had the same spec.s regardless of whether it used a cat or not. The US-specific 5th gear was dropped. Compression was lowered on the euro models and raised on the US models to 10.2:1, and all models received a revised DME. I don't know if the cam profile was changed, but note the differences in peak power rpms:
1988 world spec car: 158 HP @ 5,900 rpm, 155 ft-lbs @ 4,500 rpm
The 1989 car received a 2.7 L engine (increased bore) and compression increase to 10.9:1, but gained a modest HP increase to 163 HP (I think it had a larger torque increase, but can't find those numbers offhand.
The 1987-1988 944S was also a world car, gained DOHC and knock sensors, 10.9:1 compression, and produced 188 HP @ 6000 rpm, 170 ft-lbs at 4300 rpm.
The 1989 944S2 received the larger 3.0 L engine (bored and stroked), kept the 10.9:1 comnpression and produced 208HP @ 5800 rpm, 207 ft-lbs @ 4100 rpm.
Unless the head is what is sucking all the HP away..
10-06-2003, 05:48 PM
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Weight is about the same, both are fun to drive. Get out and try one. Before you buy, go drive a 951.
I had an '83 many years ago (from 86-89), so I have driven them and love them.
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10-06-2003, 07:08 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
I am not aware of any documented weight differences between years. Porsche says that the curb weight of both the early (1982-1985) and late (195.5-1989) US cars was 2779 lbs. I have definitely heard that the early cars were the lightest, however, I haven't seen that supported. I agree with the theory that the weight gain is real and was caused by the increasing level of standard and optional equipment (PS, AC, power seats, ABS, etc.) but I haven't seen any hard numbers.
ROW cars were significantly lighter: 1982-1985 2601 lbs, 1985.5 and later 2668 lbs.
As far as cooling, the only change that I know of is that the 1985.5 and later cars got dual 2-speed cooling fans rather than a single fan. I haven't heard of cooling problems related to the different models. The turbo, which generates way more heat, got a larger radiator and external oil cooler, but otherwise keeps the same cooling system.
I am not sure about that. The 1988 peaked at a higher rpm, but with more torque. Can someone check their owner's manual and see what the 1988 has for torque at 3,000 rpm; I would bet it is similar to the 1987 torque peak.
If it were me, I would look for a 1988 924S with M030 suspension option; I have always thought that would make a great track car. Unfortunately, many people know about it and not that many were sold, so my second choice would be the 1988 944 (with M030 if possible.)
Fishey, check with Skip. I think he dynoed 143-144 rwhp after some exhaust upgrades, even with a Guru chip and race gas. That would be about 168 shaft HP assuming a 15% drive train loss, or not much more than the 163 HP Porsche claimed stock.
ROW cars were significantly lighter: 1982-1985 2601 lbs, 1985.5 and later 2668 lbs.
As far as cooling, the only change that I know of is that the 1985.5 and later cars got dual 2-speed cooling fans rather than a single fan. I haven't heard of cooling problems related to the different models. The turbo, which generates way more heat, got a larger radiator and external oil cooler, but otherwise keeps the same cooling system.
Much lower torque band on the '87 than '88.
If it were me, I would look for a 1988 924S with M030 suspension option; I have always thought that would make a great track car. Unfortunately, many people know about it and not that many were sold, so my second choice would be the 1988 944 (with M030 if possible.)
My bet is the 1989 will dyno higher then said...
10-06-2003, 08:00 PM
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Waterguy,
You the guy (with the answers). Thank you for all of the helpful information. I agree that the '88 924S would be a great car as I am assuming that it weighs less (less metal???), but my first P-Car was a 944 and want to go that direction (I am a sentimental fool).
I am not set on M030 as this class does allow some suspension mods. I will be looking for a strong car mechanically, and cosmetics are not an issue as it will be on a track.
You the guy (with the answers). Thank you for all of the helpful information. I agree that the '88 924S would be a great car as I am assuming that it weighs less (less metal???), but my first P-Car was a 944 and want to go that direction (I am a sentimental fool).
I am not set on M030 as this class does allow some suspension mods. I will be looking for a strong car mechanically, and cosmetics are not an issue as it will be on a track.
10-06-2003, 08:32 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thanks, David, but I just know some of the specs and have some time to help out. You should talk to the guys that actually race them, such as M758. It would be nice to see them help out on this thread.
You should check out M758's 944Spec web page for some actual experience. Also, Skip of Paragon Products has lots of experience tracking his 89 NA and is well worth talking to.
Welcome back to 944s!
You should check out M758's 944Spec web page for some actual experience. Also, Skip of Paragon Products has lots of experience tracking his 89 NA and is well worth talking to.
Welcome back to 944s!
10-07-2003, 12:29 PM
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Waterguy,
You picked up on the direction that I am heading...Spec 944. I have been very intrigued with this group and it is growing here in CA. I have not contacted M758 yet, but have been discussing with others.
Thanx again. Look forward to spending more time in the future with you vasserpumpers here at Rennlist
You picked up on the direction that I am heading...Spec 944. I have been very intrigued with this group and it is growing here in CA. I have not contacted M758 yet, but have been discussing with others.
Thanx again. Look forward to spending more time in the future with you vasserpumpers here at Rennlist
