Are some S2s just stronger than others?
10-02-2003, 03:04 AM
#1
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Are some S2s just stronger than others?
So when I was coming back from class tonight I see a few cars up a 944 (it was purple, obviously a repaint at some point) and I was like wow, there's a 951 up there. Well I got up closer and it said S2 on the back. Wow, actually seeing another S2 driving around?
I'm not one to normally street race but we got out into the wide open and just rolled on it a bit just for fun. I figured he was gonna take me since my car has a 944 turbo gearbox with the lower ratios. Well we started in 4th and dropped it down to 3rd and I just slowly started pulling from him. I was expecting to get beat! Did that a couple more times to make sure it wasn't just a missed shift or something. My car has the chip in it but is that enough to make it faster than the gearing difference? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know. Not to mention my car was probably heavier with the bigger wheels/wider tires (he had the D90s) and my roll bar in it (and maybe 15 lbs of school books!)
Why would that be? I guess there could have been something wrong with his car but it seemed to be pretty clean and sounded healthy. He turned off before I could get a chance to ask him anything. I need to go look for him again.
Are some cars just naturally stronger than others? My car has 156k on it now (not that you could ever tell by how it looks and drives). I wanna put this thing on a dyno now and see what the deal is! I just found it kind of odd/interesting and figured I'd share. Yes I know the usual street race flame thing is coming but it was only to like 80-85 in a 60. No 100+ or anything, although when you're on it in these cars you have to be careful to avoid hitting triple digits.
I'm not one to normally street race but we got out into the wide open and just rolled on it a bit just for fun. I figured he was gonna take me since my car has a 944 turbo gearbox with the lower ratios. Well we started in 4th and dropped it down to 3rd and I just slowly started pulling from him. I was expecting to get beat! Did that a couple more times to make sure it wasn't just a missed shift or something. My car has the chip in it but is that enough to make it faster than the gearing difference? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know. Not to mention my car was probably heavier with the bigger wheels/wider tires (he had the D90s) and my roll bar in it (and maybe 15 lbs of school books!)
Why would that be? I guess there could have been something wrong with his car but it seemed to be pretty clean and sounded healthy. He turned off before I could get a chance to ask him anything. I need to go look for him again.
Are some cars just naturally stronger than others? My car has 156k on it now (not that you could ever tell by how it looks and drives). I wanna put this thing on a dyno now and see what the deal is! I just found it kind of odd/interesting and figured I'd share. Yes I know the usual street race flame thing is coming but it was only to like 80-85 in a 60. No 100+ or anything, although when you're on it in these cars you have to be careful to avoid hitting triple digits.
10-02-2003, 06:38 AM
#5
Race Director
According to Porsches official numbers the engines are supposed to produce not less than the said number (208/211 hp on the S2).
A story I've heard is that there was an engine builder at Porsche who built the engines and somehow usually managed to get his engines very well tuned and somewhat stronger than the rest. Some people specificly ordered their car with an engine built by this guy even though they had to wait longer for their car.
A story I've heard is that there was an engine builder at Porsche who built the engines and somehow usually managed to get his engines very well tuned and somewhat stronger than the rest. Some people specificly ordered their car with an engine built by this guy even though they had to wait longer for their car.
10-02-2003, 06:55 AM
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Anders, I've heard the same thing 
Told by a factory representative on a tour in their engine shop last summer. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's a good story never the less
Told by a factory representative on a tour in their engine shop last summer. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's a good story never the less
10-02-2003, 09:19 AM
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If anything my car has some dirty injectors and I know my air filter is sludged up with all the rain we've been having lately. Good story Anders..now I really wanna dyno this thing and see if it's all in my head or not.
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10-02-2003, 11:48 AM
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Fishey--I don't see why that really is because aside from the final drive and 5th, the S2 box has the same ratios as the turbo. Technically it should have more leverage all the way up, even in 5th. He did have to shift around 85 into 4th (basically when we backed off) I can hold 3rd till over 100. I thought about getting my broken S2 tranny rebuilt and putting it back in but I've gotten kinda fond of the long gears..especially on the track.
10-02-2003, 12:58 PM
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dave120,
Does your car accelerate any differently with the turbo trans?
Personally it feels like my S2 is not very fast - of course when I look down at the speedo it tells me otherwise.
Does your car accelerate any differently with the turbo trans?
Personally it feels like my S2 is not very fast - of course when I look down at the speedo it tells me otherwise.
10-02-2003, 01:11 PM
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The car had the turbo trans in it when I got it. The PO got a really good price on it (less than it would cost to rebuild the S2 box) so he put it in. He said it's not much slower though. Definately longer gears than another S2 I drove. As far as the actual speed difference between them I was going to try and find that out..it just wasn't the result I was expecting!
My car is pretty stiff on the shocks in the rear, and the 50/50 weight distro helps some too in that these cars don't slam you into the seat like a Mustang or something would due to not squatting as much (unless you slowly roll it up to 4k rms and then slam the gas down..that throws you back pretty well, as does a downshift to 2nd). The speedo tells the story though. They definately don't feel as fast as they are.
My car is pretty stiff on the shocks in the rear, and the 50/50 weight distro helps some too in that these cars don't slam you into the seat like a Mustang or something would due to not squatting as much (unless you slowly roll it up to 4k rms and then slam the gas down..that throws you back pretty well, as does a downshift to 2nd). The speedo tells the story though. They definately don't feel as fast as they are.
10-02-2003, 02:15 PM
#15
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Hi dave120,
I can absolutely guarantee that there are differences between 944S2 cars.
A mechanic once commented that he'd seen these differences on the 16v cars with no obvious reasons (like the service related stuff some other folks mentioned). He also said that the 8v cars seemed more consistent.
I've owned two S2's and I've driven two other S2's.
When I bought my first (red) '91 S2, I didn't have any other S2's to compare it against. It felt great but in roll on acceleration tests, my friends 968 would always pull away from me smartly. We used to do this on and off over several months and the results were always the same.
When it came time to buy my second (black) '91 S2, I test drove 3 cars that were for sale in the SF Bay Area at the same time. It was clear that the car I bought simply pulled harder than the other two cars. All the test drives were done during the day within a 3 day period so the temperatures was very similar. There was always one passanger (the seller) in the car.
When compared against the same 968, this time he would pull away from me - but very slowly. Repeated tests, again over a number of months, produced the same consistent results. This seems to indicate that my second S2 was stronger than the first S2 I owned.
Then I had the car dynoed and sure enough, it does appear to be making more HP than stock. You can see the graphs at:
http://www.weissach.net/DynoResults-2002-09-07.html
As regards why some production engines are stronger than others, here is one effect that might explain why this happens.
When a batch of blocks is being made, the tool that bores the cylinder walls also wears. So the tool only lasts for a given batch size. The tool is designed so that at the beginning (i.e. the first blocks bored with it), it creates bores that are at one end of the tolerance limit. As the tool is worn, it will creates bores in the middle of the tolerance range and as the tool reaches the end of its service life (i.e. the last blocks its used to bore), its producing bores at the other end of the tolerance limit. This range of bore size from engine to engine affects power. Some engines will have bore sizes that are right in the sweet spot.
Of course, everything I said in the last paragraph could be cods-wallop but that was one explaination that was told to me.
Karl.
PS dave120 - If you dyno your S2, please let me know as I'd like to add your graphs to that dyno page (assuming thats okay with you).
I can absolutely guarantee that there are differences between 944S2 cars.
A mechanic once commented that he'd seen these differences on the 16v cars with no obvious reasons (like the service related stuff some other folks mentioned). He also said that the 8v cars seemed more consistent.
I've owned two S2's and I've driven two other S2's.
When I bought my first (red) '91 S2, I didn't have any other S2's to compare it against. It felt great but in roll on acceleration tests, my friends 968 would always pull away from me smartly. We used to do this on and off over several months and the results were always the same.
When it came time to buy my second (black) '91 S2, I test drove 3 cars that were for sale in the SF Bay Area at the same time. It was clear that the car I bought simply pulled harder than the other two cars. All the test drives were done during the day within a 3 day period so the temperatures was very similar. There was always one passanger (the seller) in the car.
When compared against the same 968, this time he would pull away from me - but very slowly. Repeated tests, again over a number of months, produced the same consistent results. This seems to indicate that my second S2 was stronger than the first S2 I owned.
Then I had the car dynoed and sure enough, it does appear to be making more HP than stock. You can see the graphs at:
http://www.weissach.net/DynoResults-2002-09-07.html
As regards why some production engines are stronger than others, here is one effect that might explain why this happens.
When a batch of blocks is being made, the tool that bores the cylinder walls also wears. So the tool only lasts for a given batch size. The tool is designed so that at the beginning (i.e. the first blocks bored with it), it creates bores that are at one end of the tolerance limit. As the tool is worn, it will creates bores in the middle of the tolerance range and as the tool reaches the end of its service life (i.e. the last blocks its used to bore), its producing bores at the other end of the tolerance limit. This range of bore size from engine to engine affects power. Some engines will have bore sizes that are right in the sweet spot.
Of course, everything I said in the last paragraph could be cods-wallop but that was one explaination that was told to me.
Karl.
PS dave120 - If you dyno your S2, please let me know as I'd like to add your graphs to that dyno page (assuming thats okay with you).