ipodwinner31

Hey guys, been lurking for a bit and figured id make an account and get the ball rolling. My names Devon, im 21, currently live in New York, going to Clarkson University for Mechanical Engineering. Hoping to get into the motorsports/racing engineering industry once im out of school (one more freakin year )

I am sure many of you are familiar with Russell Berry and the MaxHP chips. Russell is actually a very good family friend of ours, and if any of you happen to know Russell personally, you may also know my father, Timm Baldauf. and for the Canadian goers, another good family friend is Markus Blaszak, who owns a shop and does a LOT of Porsche work.

Anyways, figured id let you guys in on some plans and ideas for my future 944(s). Well for one, my dad has 3 951s so its safe to say I got the bug from him.

My first 944 is gonna be an 85.5 or newer (hopefully) which is going to be my rally/track car. strip her down, roll cage, basic mods will be a throttle cam, 2-3* cam timing advance (offset gear), then basic I/H/E to start with. Once I either blow the motor or buy another longblock to build, ill go a little crazier. obviously the things stated above, plus either Euro spec pistons for higher CR, or custom pistons, preferably around 11:1. a nice healthy camshaft, porting, polishing, 3 angle valve job, and maybe some tighter valve springs. debating on removing the balance shafts, since i will balance the pistons, and probably the rods but keep stock rods. and obviously a chip or tune of some sort. if I really feel like going all out, ill do a 16v head swap as well, but I know that takes some more work. then if I really realllyyyyy wanna go all out, there mayyyy be some nitrous

after that, I want 2 951s. one is gonna be a reallllyyy nice clean street car (like my dads) the other is going to be a track monster. (also like my dads lol)

Obviously the street one I will probably do a simple tune and exhaust and some "good looks" mods and keep her pretty.

The track car? strip down the block, aftermarket rods, pistons, prefereably custom 8.5:1 CR, work the heads, heavy duty studs, and lots of tuning. oh almost forgot to mention the wittle itty bitty turbo Im gonna add so I have a nice, full range powerband, Twin Turbo 951 and on that note, probably opt for a slightly larger main turbo for the revs since the little guy can take care of 2k-4k. then have the big boy take over for 4k up. I definitely don't have the details of this build worked out, and they certainly wont be for at least 5 years (definitely wont have a 951 till then XD) but that's the base plan.

The NA 944? I want that bitch by summer 2017. I need me some Stuttgart in my life. I don't get to drive or even look at my dads cars enough anymore since I don't live at home

So hello all, and I look forward to learning a lot here and sharing my future progress!

edit: oh yeah and I forgot to add most likely lightweight flywheel and pulleys and possibly under drive pulleys. AC delete on the track cars obviously, but not on the street cars.

mytrplseven

I'd recommend keeping your eye on craigslist, not only in the NY area but also PA, Chicago and even SW Florida. I'm constantly seeing them in various levels of race prep or stock condition and some for very low prices. Good luck with the adventure.

odonnell

What's your budget? You may save a lot of money/time buying a car with some of those mods already. I bought my car with the cam, valve springs & grind, lightened crank, and bal shafts delete already done, in fact it was built by Broadfoot Racing. I paid $3400 for it... with 16" Fuchs and good paint and interior. Deals are out there, you just have to find them!

Another thing you could do is just buy a 944S from the beginning, probably won't be that much more $. It's a far better head design and will respond better to I/H/E mods.

ipodwinner31

budget for the build doesnt exist yet. i have to get out of school and get a job before i can even buy the car (unless i can make enough next summer). I might buy a 944S from the get go as you mentioned, i just find them to be much rarer and harder to come by, so i just dont have my heart set on it. i also agree there are many modded and almost race ready cars for good deals. saw one near me actually roll cage and all, wanted 2500$! i just literally have no money right now. budget for the initial car is $1500-3k, maybe 4k if its already got a roll cage and is fairly nice, but again this budget wont exist till either the end of next summer, or once im full time

V2Rocket

start with a chip and the advanced camshaft (2-4 degrees)
the car will seriously wake the f*** up.

some notes/thoughts:
- you don't need to mess with the intake at all unless you do a MAF or MAP conversion - the stock airbox and filter are great for flow...the AFM is the killer. at full throttle the flapper door does not open fully until around 4500rpm...which means that at any rpm below that, and at anything less than WOT, you are sucking through a straw instead of a sewer pipe. MAF conversions exist but hard to come across...a MAP conversion via MegaSquirt is great if you can get your head around the work required to build it.

- compression does get you power but not a whole lot for the effort...but you will have to have good gas to use it. i guess if you're rebuilding an engine anyways you could stuff higher CR pistons in there, but on the list of "easy" things to do for power i'd put it near the bottom. people will cite the Euro 944 having 10.6 compression and 163 hp vs the early US at 9.5/143hp...but the real power was made in the tune of the Euro DME and the lack of a catalyst in the exhaust. the high compression might have gotten that last 4-5hp, but definitely not the full 20hp difference. the US DME tune is conservative to run on 87 octane gas and meet strict US emissions laws, which Europe really didn't have at the time.

- the gains of porting and polishing will not be worth the money spent on a 944 head if you are not an all-out racer or seriously after every last bit of power. the 944 head flows and works very well for what it is. but a good valve job will always help. valvesprings are more dependent on your intended RPM range, and 944T springs are a cheap upgrade, but there's not a lot of point in taking the 944 over 6500rpm unless you beef up the oiling system (dry sump) and design the intake/cam/exhaust to operate well at really high rpm range.

- camshafts work but not a whole lot of people have tried them it seems. there are good ones out there though for a not crazy price.

- the exhaust is in no way restricting your power output. the pipe size is totally fine for anything you can throw at it (the 944S2 with 208hp used the same size piping as your regular NA) and unless clogged, the cat isn't really in the way of much either. the exhaust manifolds are designed to broaden the torque rpm range, so they are a compromise of smooth power delivery over absolute peak output at a narrow rpm window. MSDS and Bursch make nice headers for the 944 but you have to bear in mind that the headers will narrow the RPM range of best torque a lot versus the stock parts, but they should produce higher peak numbers.

i have a stock-internal US-spec (9.5 compression) NA engine, factory rated at 143hp/137tq. i have a section of my exhaust that is slightly smaller than factory (replacement catalytic converter with 2" pipes rather than 2-1/8" or so stock size), but the manifolds and muffler are stock. i have a MAF+tune, and a 2-degree advanced camshaft.
current output is ~160hp/165tq and i have dyno sheets to back up each mod. it runs very well on 91 octane gas, and averages 24mpg or so. going back to the dyno next week to see if my new-fangled intake (since I have a MAF ) does anything better.

the power is in there...you just have to look for the right places to let it out.

ipodwinner31

lol higher CR pistons were definitely not on the "easy list" thats the throttle cam, cam advance, and I/H/E and possibly a chip. im probably going to flog whatever motor comes in it with those simple mods for a couple years of rally/DE while a build the other block for a little more power. not going ***** to the walls with head work and **** either, unless you consider a possible 16v head swap "***** to the walls" lol. the goal is to just to make a nice healthy rally/track car and once the race motors in there then rally harder, DE harder, and start club racing. then get the track 951 ready for the same thing minus the rally

ipodwinner31

V2 rocket you made a serious edit on your post! a lot of awesome information, thank you. Your mods and numbers are very similar to what I expect for an outcome. however, is that 160 hp after mods at the flywheel or at the wheels? and I plan on tuning for 93 octane eventually. on the race motor. maybe more on the race motor but we'll see. long time to figure it out. but yeah id really prefer the 16v but we'll see what happens. its just gonna get flogged in rally anyway so whatever I do itll be fun. lol ill look into serious building and serious power on the 951

V2Rocket

numbers are at flywheel.
if you can run race gas (100 octane+) you can get the same power as I have with higher compression + huge ignition advance through the AFM...this is what the 944Spec racers do.

but ditching the AFM for a MAP/MAF makes that kind of gain a lot more accessible, and on regular pump gas...i suggest looking heavily into that before even thinking about opening up the engine and swapping pistons/cam.

and yes...the 16v will get you way more power. with my mods i have 160 at the crank...a 944"S" 16 valve as stock puts about 160 to the wheels. and that would benefit even more from the MAF/MAP.

odonnell

Yep, look at any serious 8v build and you will not see an AFM. People will tell you (rightfully so) that it's very expensive, and often fruitless to make power on an NA 944 motor. That's correct, mainly because the stock Motronic parts were designed in an era where EFI was still in its early phases and the political atmosphere in the US had a tight leash on the automotive sector. The 1982 Corvette was making 200 hp from a 5.7 v8 with TBI (an even more primitive form of EFI).

Motronic was very advanced at the time but the simple fact is, it's 2015 and even DIY guys like us can improve on it without much thought. The biggest thing is the AFM... it's reliable and does its job fine, but impedes airflow. Second thing is the tune. Even on a stock 8v you will see noticeable gains, ask anyone who has a MAF kit with one of Joshua's tunes. Lastly, moving to distributorless ignition allows you to run more timing safely at low RPMs because you have better accuracy. At high RPMs you'll still be able to fully saturate the coil(s) and pull harder.

drew944

You could also go with an 88, since it has a little higher compression from the get go (10.2:1, I believe).

My first 944 was an 88 that had the throttle response cam, a chip (not sure which one), and a decked turbo head (for a little extra CR bump). I haven't had much seat time in other NA's, but from the little I had, my car definitely felt like it had a little more pep.

Also you get the auto tensioner FWIW

mytrplseven

[QUOTE=odonnell;12755337]Yep, look at any serious 8v build and you will not see an AFM. People will tell you (rightfully so) that it's very expensive, and often fruitless to make power on an NA 944 motor. That's correct, mainly because the stock Motronic parts were designed in an era where EFI was still in its early phases and the political atmosphere in the US had a tight leash on the automotive sector. The 1982 Corvette was making 200 hp from a 5.7 v8 with TBI (an even more primitive form of EFI).

When you look at these numbers for '82 Corvette as being really low hp figures, you have to keep in mind that in '72, GM went from listing flywheel hp which is a "gross" hp number to a "net" hp figure that showed the real hp output after all the drag items such as a/c, generator, water pump, etc on the engine. Pre '72 Corvette hp numbers would typically show over 300 hp up to that point.

V2Rocket

I wonder what the 944's "Gross" number would be...

mytrplseven

On average a loss of about 25%. A 300 gross hp motor showed a net hp of 225 hp. So a 944 would lose about 36 hp (figured with a/c) giving a net hp of 107.

ipodwinner31

wouldn't this be the other way around? the advertised power output is NET isn't it? so right now...roughly 150bhp or whatever (143, 147 etc) so its GROSS number would be like 200 because that's how much power it makes before adding A/C and power steering and all that other garbage right?

a car whos GROSS hp was 150 would see a NET hp of 113 ish. that's what I thought at least?

also I don't think the difference in net and gross is 25%. maybe 10 or 15% but 25% seems kinda high. maybe on the old 60s and 70s American made motors where there was a lot to improve...mid 80s German engineering though? ahead of their time in my opinion

V2Rocket

not knowing the percentage, but you are right - the 944 advertised power is "net" accounting for accesories etc.

all numbers in North-American/US-SAE hp:

82-85: 143
85.5-87:147 (revised camshaft has more exhaust lift/duration)
1988: 152 (compression increased from 9.5 to 10.2, tune revised, requires 91 octane)
1989: 162 (2.7L, 10.9 compression, 91 octane)

someone may come along citing higher numbers but those are "DIN" or german horsepower numbers (like the 1988 944 is 158DIN), german horses are a little smaller mathematically than US horses.

note that the 82-87 Euro 944, 10.6 compression, no catalyst and a tune designed for highest premium gas, was 163hp. in 1988-89 the Euro 944 got the same engine/configuration as the US-944, tune, catalyst, etc.