How many miles is too much
03-14-2015 | 09:04 PM
#1
Thread Starter
8th Gear
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
How many miles is too much
Hey guy i got a question about a high mileage 944 here is what it says on the craigslist post
The guy is asking $3750 for it. What do you guys think?
Clean title in my name, in hand ... cash talks.
192K miles. 28 years old (avg. 7K miles a year)
NEW tires
NEW manual steering rack and alignment with all new components
NEW Koni coilover suspension (front and rear)
NEW Cooling hoses and overflow tank and fluid
NEW brake pads and fluid
NEW hood shocks (front and rear)
NEW engine mounts, and oil and filter change.
Plus transmission fluid flushed
Clutch is in good shape
Belts checked (replaced 15K miles ago)
No issues passing smog.
192K miles. 28 years old (avg. 7K miles a year)
NEW tires
NEW manual steering rack and alignment with all new components
NEW Koni coilover suspension (front and rear)
NEW Cooling hoses and overflow tank and fluid
NEW brake pads and fluid
NEW hood shocks (front and rear)
NEW engine mounts, and oil and filter change.
Plus transmission fluid flushed
Clutch is in good shape
Belts checked (replaced 15K miles ago)
No issues passing smog.
03-14-2015 | 09:14 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,427
Likes: 153
From: Elizabethton,TN
Dear Panafonic: sounds like a lot of $$ have been put into this car if it's all true...If you have a Porsche buddy, take him with you to see the car in the DAYLIGHT! Take a flashlight and some cardboard...check the belly...with the flashlight.. put the cardboard on the ground, and go and drive the car about 5 miles..come back and park over the cardboard...keep looking the car over for about 15 minutes noting, scratches, dings, crumpled hood, headlights looking at each other, etc...then start talking $$ at about 2700..pull out the cardboard and check for oil stains or coolant leaks...if there are some, try to determine the source and see what it is that's leaking. that will also give you a leg up in the $$ negotiations part and save you some $$ initially for the engine rebuild for the rod and main bearings you are probably going to have to replace...soon...jus my 2 cents..thanks, Tiger 03447
03-14-2015 | 09:58 PM
#3
Thread Starter
8th Gear
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Dear Panafonic: sounds like a lot of $$ have been put into this car if it's all true...If you have a Porsche buddy, take him with you to see the car in the DAYLIGHT! Take a flashlight and some cardboard...check the belly...with the flashlight.. put the cardboard on the ground, and go and drive the car about 5 miles..come back and park over the cardboard...keep looking the car over for about 15 minutes noting, scratches, dings, crumpled hood, headlights looking at each other, etc...then start talking $$ at about 2700..pull out the cardboard and check for oil stains or coolant leaks...if there are some, try to determine the source and see what it is that's leaking. that will also give you a leg up in the $$ negotiations part and save you some $$ initially for the engine rebuild for the rod and main bearings you are probably going to have to replace...soon...jus my 2 cents..thanks, Tiger 03447
03-14-2015 | 10:38 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,427
Likes: 153
From: Elizabethton,TN
Dear Panafonic: Well, that depends on the condition of the engine..If you are doing the labor, and time is not a problem, then the cost will be lower than if you have a shop do it. If you pull it yourself, then take it to a machine shop to put it through there, probably about in the 2 K range. If all is well, with the bores, then you're looking at rings, bearings, and a head refurb..cleaning and re-assembly..If crank work is involved then get braced fro about 500 more...You didn't say what year this 944 was, but it sounds like it might be an early one (pre 1985.5). Mine had 156K on it, and the mains were down into the copper..which is below the babbit, next to the steel...Talk to the guy and see if it's ever been rebuilt...check out the way it shifts too...If it's an LSD, a trans o'haul will be more than an open diff..and that's about 1300...to REALLY go through the trans...bearings, synchros, seals, labor etc. (that's just the cost of the o'haul) if you pull it and put it back in yourself...If you buy it, then take it and get a compression check and a blowdown check as well..send off some oil for an analysis and check for copper and steel content...It may not need anything..then again...check for VERY white plugs when you do the compression check...may have a head gasket leak..the antifreeze will steam clean the plug insulators on bad cylinders and the good cylinders will be tan colored on the insulators..just a few things to look for..get braced for more as time goes on..this is a 28-30 year old car..a classic..that is undervalued right now. I wish that mine had been running when I bought it...at least you have that going for you..then it's just repair as you go...GOOD LUCK!
03-14-2015 | 11:22 PM
#5
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 28,705
Likes: 213
From: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
long post coming....
stage 1 (looking):
what do you want to do with this car? you want to drive it a long time? restore it eventually? make it go nice ? fast ? real fast ???
there's always the exception, but, any one of these now-getting-very-old cars may have sat....
944s don't like to sit. no, really. it's their kryptonite.
there's always a chance the car could be reasonably well sorted. or just appear that way.
4 cylinder engines run hot and take a ton of abuse....
in a car so inherently well balanced = you have an underpowered car that's been driven hard.
then, add to that a lot of starting, stopping, heat cycling, weather and everything else thrown at this one
over a very long span of time. possibly with many owners....
there's always the chance that some of the rubber and plastic crusties have been replaced, and many pieces that have not replaced.
that **** can get expensive.
with just that $$$ you could make a down payment on a new FRS... at this stage,
I'm buying a car like that - and skipping the 944 (I'd get a 968 though... markedly better car, and still, relatively cheap).
but, that's just me. if you want this car, you should get it. but be ready to pay in time or $$$.
it's a fair bet the electrical system will crap out and challenge your sanity, and possibly, your wallet - in the not distant future.
the lower block is probably fine.
but this engine has a very expensive timing system to maintain. the wrenches on this forum may choose to disagree.
but even there you've got a learning curve - with painful lessons if you screw up....
whether you maintain it yourself or pay someone else - it's a headache either way, imo.
the sturdiness and longevity of the lower engine is a lure that charms many into buying–
but, not long after, the engine's support components, driveline: clutch, transmission, etc can begin to nickel and dime you to death....
imo, the big 4 are: failed timing belts/tensioners/H20 pumps leading to bent valves (head off), headgaskets, clutch replacement:
(costs around the same as a good divorce attorney where I live), and tricky/murky electrical problems that may persist for extended
periods before resolution...
if i'm making it sound bad, keep in mind, these are pretty good cars, overall....
problems might come about, but over a time span that stays workable for you (our forum is populated by many such owners).
however, like any 944 with high miles - and being so old, the eventual money pit/point of no return stage may set on fairly soon...
my 968 was well cared for by two owners, and driven to the ends of the earth.
at about 145~150 k miles, it became a money pit/point of no return situation.... I drove the car to 197k miles,
but I spent way to much money doing it (and the lower block was still pristine at 197k).
interestingly, a tired 944/944T/968 motor is towing a very cool donor kit-tub – with dozens of possible outcomes.
stage 2 (the big picture/learning to recognize when the 944/968 money pit/spin cycle is upon you):
stage 3; making a good plan/getting hurt/(in a good way.
every 944/968 ownership experience is a project. if you don't handle these cars in this fashion - you lose.
whether it's going to be a nice running 944, a speedy car, or seriously fast car,
you need to think, consult, and come up with a solid plan that will yield a predictable and acceptable result - before you act.
here are 5 projects (varying from great to incredible) we can use as templates for any scale of 944/968 outcome.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...o-1-track.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ld-thread.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...has-begun.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ma-w-pics.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...d-it-runs.html
stage 1 (looking):
what do you want to do with this car? you want to drive it a long time? restore it eventually? make it go nice ? fast ? real fast ???
there's always the exception, but, any one of these now-getting-very-old cars may have sat....
944s don't like to sit. no, really. it's their kryptonite.
there's always a chance the car could be reasonably well sorted. or just appear that way.
4 cylinder engines run hot and take a ton of abuse....
in a car so inherently well balanced = you have an underpowered car that's been driven hard.
then, add to that a lot of starting, stopping, heat cycling, weather and everything else thrown at this one
over a very long span of time. possibly with many owners....
there's always the chance that some of the rubber and plastic crusties have been replaced, and many pieces that have not replaced.
that **** can get expensive.
with just that $$$ you could make a down payment on a new FRS... at this stage,
I'm buying a car like that - and skipping the 944 (I'd get a 968 though... markedly better car, and still, relatively cheap).
but, that's just me. if you want this car, you should get it. but be ready to pay in time or $$$.
it's a fair bet the electrical system will crap out and challenge your sanity, and possibly, your wallet - in the not distant future.
the lower block is probably fine.
but this engine has a very expensive timing system to maintain. the wrenches on this forum may choose to disagree.
but even there you've got a learning curve - with painful lessons if you screw up....
whether you maintain it yourself or pay someone else - it's a headache either way, imo.
the sturdiness and longevity of the lower engine is a lure that charms many into buying–
but, not long after, the engine's support components, driveline: clutch, transmission, etc can begin to nickel and dime you to death....
imo, the big 4 are: failed timing belts/tensioners/H20 pumps leading to bent valves (head off), headgaskets, clutch replacement:
(costs around the same as a good divorce attorney where I live), and tricky/murky electrical problems that may persist for extended
periods before resolution...
if i'm making it sound bad, keep in mind, these are pretty good cars, overall....
problems might come about, but over a time span that stays workable for you (our forum is populated by many such owners).
however, like any 944 with high miles - and being so old, the eventual money pit/point of no return stage may set on fairly soon...
my 968 was well cared for by two owners, and driven to the ends of the earth.
at about 145~150 k miles, it became a money pit/point of no return situation.... I drove the car to 197k miles,
but I spent way to much money doing it (and the lower block was still pristine at 197k).
interestingly, a tired 944/944T/968 motor is towing a very cool donor kit-tub – with dozens of possible outcomes.
stage 2 (the big picture/learning to recognize when the 944/968 money pit/spin cycle is upon you):
Hi Guys,
Here's the scoop on my 944s and I need your honest opinions-
I got the car for $700 late last year. Odometer stopped working at 130k or so (doesn't have more than 150k or so). It had horrible vacuum leaks,
the clutch barely worked, it was pretty rough, but the body was clean and motor and tranny actually sounded great.
Here's what I've done so far:
AOS Seals
Timing Chain pads (teeth looked good)
Spark Plugs
Intake Manifold Seal
Rebuild TB
New Vacuum lines
Injector seals (injectors looked good, too)
Master/Slave cylinders
Still gutless but ran much smoother. So I did a compression test. 120-120-105-120. A far cry from the high compression motor it's supposed to be.
Now I'm at a crossroads. My goal was to get this thing going for a couple years and do an LSx swap, but a factory motor with an S2 intake and chip
would also be just fine. I want reliability, I just don't know how long to expect the motor to last. My E30 is at 231k with just maintenance.
What do I do?
Did the timing belt jump a tooth and maybe there's crap on one of the valves?
If that's not the case, is it worth pulling the motor and doing set of rings? Rings and bearings?
Beyond that, some parts are so crazy expensive that I might as well save for a v8. A water pump is the better part of $500,
a timing belt will put me back around $350, t-belt tensioner is probably the same.
What do you guys think?
-PC
Here's the scoop on my 944s and I need your honest opinions-
I got the car for $700 late last year. Odometer stopped working at 130k or so (doesn't have more than 150k or so). It had horrible vacuum leaks,
the clutch barely worked, it was pretty rough, but the body was clean and motor and tranny actually sounded great.
Here's what I've done so far:
AOS Seals
Timing Chain pads (teeth looked good)
Spark Plugs
Intake Manifold Seal
Rebuild TB
New Vacuum lines
Injector seals (injectors looked good, too)
Master/Slave cylinders
Still gutless but ran much smoother. So I did a compression test. 120-120-105-120. A far cry from the high compression motor it's supposed to be.
Now I'm at a crossroads. My goal was to get this thing going for a couple years and do an LSx swap, but a factory motor with an S2 intake and chip
would also be just fine. I want reliability, I just don't know how long to expect the motor to last. My E30 is at 231k with just maintenance.
What do I do?
Did the timing belt jump a tooth and maybe there's crap on one of the valves?
If that's not the case, is it worth pulling the motor and doing set of rings? Rings and bearings?
Beyond that, some parts are so crazy expensive that I might as well save for a v8. A water pump is the better part of $500,
a timing belt will put me back around $350, t-belt tensioner is probably the same.
What do you guys think?
-PC
how fast do you want to go? how far do you want to go?
best outcome: (in theory); v8, predictable higher than you thought entrance fee,
eventually leading to a solid, reliable, fast car and happiness ever after.
(in reality); a lot of seemingly endless sorting, over the course of many months, followed by nirvana.
944 n/a outcome: thirsting for more power and making the big move (to a 944T)....
944T outcome: fun car, good car, daily soap-opera requiring a dedicated plan, maintenance $$$ and occasional to significant time off
the road tinkering with a host of issues... next; overconfidence sets in: the tuning stage, endlessly wanting more until you are satisfied....
(which of course, rarely actually occurs). from there it's a slippery slope to divorce, homelessness or death. a very real, possibility
when only a few months (or years) before this seemingly impossible outcome would have been brushed off as a seemingly impossible
outcome:
sad endings are nothing to scoff at with the 944T. bad things, real-life horror stories, and destroyed lives really does happen....
(moment of silence for the scores of astronauts who came before, only to die on the launch pads).
neutral/good/great outcome? 911 or ending up on the 986/987 forums/dropping a 991/S engine in your Cayman.
or as Lart would put it, 'went Gayman.'
best outcome: (in theory); v8, predictable higher than you thought entrance fee,
eventually leading to a solid, reliable, fast car and happiness ever after.
(in reality); a lot of seemingly endless sorting, over the course of many months, followed by nirvana.
944 n/a outcome: thirsting for more power and making the big move (to a 944T)....
944T outcome: fun car, good car, daily soap-opera requiring a dedicated plan, maintenance $$$ and occasional to significant time off
the road tinkering with a host of issues... next; overconfidence sets in: the tuning stage, endlessly wanting more until you are satisfied....
(which of course, rarely actually occurs). from there it's a slippery slope to divorce, homelessness or death. a very real, possibility
when only a few months (or years) before this seemingly impossible outcome would have been brushed off as a seemingly impossible
outcome:
sad endings are nothing to scoff at with the 944T. bad things, real-life horror stories, and destroyed lives really does happen....
(moment of silence for the scores of astronauts who came before, only to die on the launch pads).
neutral/good/great outcome? 911 or ending up on the 986/987 forums/dropping a 991/S engine in your Cayman.
or as Lart would put it, 'went Gayman.'
stage 3; making a good plan/getting hurt/(in a good way.
every 944/968 ownership experience is a project. if you don't handle these cars in this fashion - you lose.
whether it's going to be a nice running 944, a speedy car, or seriously fast car,
you need to think, consult, and come up with a solid plan that will yield a predictable and acceptable result - before you act.
here are 5 projects (varying from great to incredible) we can use as templates for any scale of 944/968 outcome.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...o-1-track.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ld-thread.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...has-begun.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ma-w-pics.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...d-it-runs.html
Last edited by odurandina; 03-15-2015 at 08:58 AM.
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03-15-2015 | 08:19 PM
#9
Pro
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 557
Likes: 2
From: Fort Collins, CO
Well, if you add up that list...
$1500-2000 in suspension
$800-900 in steering
$500-700 tires/mounting/alignment
$100-200 in other misc stuff...
Seems like if it runs, has a clear title and doesn't leak... $4000 would be a good deal...
In fact I think KBB and Hagerty have these closer to 5 or 6 thousand for a driver.