OT: IT Jobs (long)
08-29-2003, 02:31 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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OT: IT Jobs (long)
I have been in the IT networking field for 10 years now in the same Fortune 100 company here in Orange County. 3-5 years ago this area of Orange County was a mini Silicon Valley. Seems like being in the IT field felt like you were on top of the world. It was a very elite job to have that other people envied. There were plenty of jobs available, and with the right credentials, it is easy to command a 70-80K jobs; even 100K plus for contracts. I had recruiters calling me oftenl for jobs. Well, ever since the .com bust and tech stock declines massive layoffs within the last couple of years. Along with the horrible economy, companies cut back or completely shut down operations. May of my IT buddies who were laid off still cannot find jobs after a year. The ones who got jobs have to take 40-50% cut in pay. I have seen the company I work for shrink into basically a skeleton staff. Plenty of jobs have been transferred to India, Philippines, and Poland (Basically, hiring educated people at cheap labor rates). Basically one person here making 70K would get at least 4 people in India to do the same job. What makes it worse is that companies would NOT do business here in California. Many companies have moved operations aways from CA. Why not? This state is one of the most expensive to run a business in terms of workers comp insurance, taxes, etc..
This pisses me off. I understand companies saving money on cheap labor but what companies do not understand is the quality of people that they are losing. I believe that most of the IT workers here in CA are much more skillful and have a better business sense that overseas workers. With so much diversity of people here in CA also comes diverse ideas, creativity, knowledge and entrepenuership.
Now, I am one of the few survivors that still have a job. No more expensive business trips, fancy company parties, and unlimited training budget. I am just glad to still have a job to pay fo the ridiculous mortage and family expenses. Its just a matter of time till IT jobs pick up again. However, I believe that it will be different. No more 20 something year old kid who has an MCSE be getting 50-60K. Its the seasoned veterans who has the experience that companies will be looking for. IT jobs wont disappear, it will just pick up; just a matter of time. Maybe after this presidency, after the war, and after the economy picks up.
This pisses me off. I understand companies saving money on cheap labor but what companies do not understand is the quality of people that they are losing. I believe that most of the IT workers here in CA are much more skillful and have a better business sense that overseas workers. With so much diversity of people here in CA also comes diverse ideas, creativity, knowledge and entrepenuership.
Now, I am one of the few survivors that still have a job. No more expensive business trips, fancy company parties, and unlimited training budget. I am just glad to still have a job to pay fo the ridiculous mortage and family expenses. Its just a matter of time till IT jobs pick up again. However, I believe that it will be different. No more 20 something year old kid who has an MCSE be getting 50-60K. Its the seasoned veterans who has the experience that companies will be looking for. IT jobs wont disappear, it will just pick up; just a matter of time. Maybe after this presidency, after the war, and after the economy picks up.
08-29-2003, 02:40 PM
#2
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Don't complain. I spent over $40,000 getting my commercial, multi-engine, IFR, float rating, pilot's licences, and when I was done all that, Osama bin Laden pulled off 9/11 and SARS hit. I got bent over and I didn't like it.
08-29-2003, 02:45 PM
#3
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Technology is a constantly developing field. 3-5 years ago, IT was not developing as fast as it is now. Many of the "seasoned veterans" don't have the ability to keep up with the continuing technology advancements and for this reason, companies need new and fresh brains working for them.
I'm not supporting the fact that employers do this, but it is just a matter of supply and demand. To supply up-to-date products and services, they will need to stay up with the rate of demand from consumers. Consumers always want the 'latest and greatest' products.
My friend Nate's father is the CTO for Actuate Software. He is the one who told me the reasons for the downsizing of so many people who are educated in the field of IT but aren't able to keep up with the developing technology. And like you said, a big part of it also is the availablilty of so many foreign students who are willing to work for so cheap. Wait a few years and I bet they will be asking for more money.
Everyone should stick to selling shoes. Shoes never change. People's feet don't change. People will always need shoes..
SHAUN
I'm not supporting the fact that employers do this, but it is just a matter of supply and demand. To supply up-to-date products and services, they will need to stay up with the rate of demand from consumers. Consumers always want the 'latest and greatest' products.
My friend Nate's father is the CTO for Actuate Software. He is the one who told me the reasons for the downsizing of so many people who are educated in the field of IT but aren't able to keep up with the developing technology. And like you said, a big part of it also is the availablilty of so many foreign students who are willing to work for so cheap. Wait a few years and I bet they will be asking for more money.
Everyone should stick to selling shoes. Shoes never change. People's feet don't change. People will always need shoes..
SHAUN
08-29-2003, 02:50 PM
#4
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
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http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11202
You actually alluded to the real problem in your post. IT professionals were highly overpaid during the .com craze, but that was okay because everyone was making money hand over fist, so why not spread it around.
Then the bubble burst. No sense blaming it on Bush, the war or anything else. IT was a highly inflated industry, and you can't keep that going forever. I've worked with and been involved with Sysadmins and other high tech workers for years. Most are very competent, but I've known more than a few highly paid IT types that were practically clueless as to what they were doing. If you've got a job, stick with it, don't expect salaries to ever get back to where they were.
As to the cost of running a company in CA. Head on over here to New Hampster. Lowest cost of running a company in the states, Real estate is pretty high at themoment, but cost of living isn't bad. No state income tax, and no sales tax. Most importantly, we have very few crazy Californians.
You actually alluded to the real problem in your post. IT professionals were highly overpaid during the .com craze, but that was okay because everyone was making money hand over fist, so why not spread it around.
Then the bubble burst. No sense blaming it on Bush, the war or anything else. IT was a highly inflated industry, and you can't keep that going forever. I've worked with and been involved with Sysadmins and other high tech workers for years. Most are very competent, but I've known more than a few highly paid IT types that were practically clueless as to what they were doing. If you've got a job, stick with it, don't expect salaries to ever get back to where they were.
As to the cost of running a company in CA. Head on over here to New Hampster. Lowest cost of running a company in the states, Real estate is pretty high at themoment, but cost of living isn't bad. No state income tax, and no sales tax. Most importantly, we have very few crazy Californians.
08-29-2003, 02:51 PM
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Most of the CEO/CIOs I know understand that they're losing higher quality people than they're gaining by outsourcing jobs overseas. They also think the job market is SO BAD, that by the time the economy picks up and companies begin growing there will still be a surplus of quality people available. Sadly, I'm sure they're right. At least we're not in middle management. 
08-29-2003, 03:20 PM
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Move to Phoenix (everybody else from LA has).
We were one of the hardest hit tech cities, but supposedly things are getting better (I have yet to see proof though).
Three years ago, when I looked for my previous job, I posted my resume to monster and techies.com on a Friday afternoon. I had 30 emails and voice mails by Saturday noon. I averaged over 50 per day for two weeks.
I had half a dozen really good opportunities to choose from (really good meaning job duties, pay, <10mi drive, etc).
When the company I went with cut its entire R&D department, it took over a month for me to find this job, which was the only one I could find. The pay is quite a bit better, but the job sucks and the company is horribly bureaucratic.
There is a ray of hope though. The total number of available foreign worker visas (H1 or L1, I forget) will be cut by 120,000 this fall. That should create some techie demand.
We were one of the hardest hit tech cities, but supposedly things are getting better (I have yet to see proof though).
Three years ago, when I looked for my previous job, I posted my resume to monster and techies.com on a Friday afternoon. I had 30 emails and voice mails by Saturday noon. I averaged over 50 per day for two weeks.
I had half a dozen really good opportunities to choose from (really good meaning job duties, pay, <10mi drive, etc).
When the company I went with cut its entire R&D department, it took over a month for me to find this job, which was the only one I could find. The pay is quite a bit better, but the job sucks and the company is horribly bureaucratic.
There is a ray of hope though. The total number of available foreign worker visas (H1 or L1, I forget) will be cut by 120,000 this fall. That should create some techie demand.
08-29-2003, 03:21 PM
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It was pretty sweet for a while in there, wasn't it? I got into IT in 1998 because I was sick and tired of trying to find work as an advertising/tech writer - and I knew I'd NEVER, EVER have that problem as a systems admin...
I discovered that I really love this line of work - love working with machines, the problem solving, the constant change, the fact that I don't have to be Mr. Backslapping Extrovert Salesman or Mr Swaggering Arrogant ******* Manager to make a decent living. My job is a very important one, and everyone at the company benefits when I do it well, even if they don't always see it.
The feeding frenzy was great but now, like every other job in the world, it's come down to quality. If you're good, honest, and keep your skills relevant and up-to-date, you'll work. If you're a hack with an MCSE who just wants a 60k paycheck, you probably won't, no matter how much the economy improves.
I discovered that I really love this line of work - love working with machines, the problem solving, the constant change, the fact that I don't have to be Mr. Backslapping Extrovert Salesman or Mr Swaggering Arrogant ******* Manager to make a decent living. My job is a very important one, and everyone at the company benefits when I do it well, even if they don't always see it.
The feeding frenzy was great but now, like every other job in the world, it's come down to quality. If you're good, honest, and keep your skills relevant and up-to-date, you'll work. If you're a hack with an MCSE who just wants a 60k paycheck, you probably won't, no matter how much the economy improves.
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08-29-2003, 04:26 PM
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I say blame it on Grey Davis for Caliornia's problems. He's the one running the show out there. If it's that bad, go to Pennsylvania. They are bending over backwards to bring IT types to the state. 
08-29-2003, 04:31 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
There has been a shift in where the work is. A few people that I was in the Air Force with, that went civilian are still making top dollar and get job offers quite often. A Top Secret SCI clearence will still bring in good money..
1 year 8 months 'til I get out.... wooohooo
1 year 8 months 'til I get out.... wooohooo
08-29-2003, 04:38 PM
#10
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Ahh.. my plight exactly.
Not ALL professionals were overpaid. I worked for the School District.
I have been unemployed for over a year, I have been a network admin for many years. Some of us eat, drink and breathe this tech stuff, I know I do. The "older" workforce from IT has been hit just as hard as the younger set.
Hence my looking into relocation. There ARE IT jobs out there- I figger I have about 18 years left in the workforce.
I have been doing research on IT sector growth areas, and Cali, Texas, even Mass have tanked.
Where in Pa is the IT boom? I'll go.
the Boom 90's in IT saw EVERY college graduate considering a career in the tech sector. There are jobs out there, but it's supply and demand. there are too many overqualified applicants for dwindling american jobs.
Thank you NAFTA. Why would a company pay a guy 40 grand a year, when the employer can outsource the same position overseas for 8 dollars a day.
Global economy, war, the overspending of corporations, bad business practices and poor economic outlook has taken a toll on us all.
Not ALL professionals were overpaid. I worked for the School District.
I have been unemployed for over a year, I have been a network admin for many years. Some of us eat, drink and breathe this tech stuff, I know I do. The "older" workforce from IT has been hit just as hard as the younger set.
Hence my looking into relocation. There ARE IT jobs out there- I figger I have about 18 years left in the workforce.
I have been doing research on IT sector growth areas, and Cali, Texas, even Mass have tanked.
Where in Pa is the IT boom? I'll go.
the Boom 90's in IT saw EVERY college graduate considering a career in the tech sector. There are jobs out there, but it's supply and demand. there are too many overqualified applicants for dwindling american jobs.
Thank you NAFTA. Why would a company pay a guy 40 grand a year, when the employer can outsource the same position overseas for 8 dollars a day.
Global economy, war, the overspending of corporations, bad business practices and poor economic outlook has taken a toll on us all.
08-29-2003, 04:57 PM
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I'm another one hit with the downsizing... been working in the industry sine '97, playing with tech/computers since 85 (I was 11, mom got a "portable" for summer school so I had it the rest of the year). The downturn isn't only because of the economy/other reasons listed above but also because administration is becoming more streamlined. When I first started as a LAN Admin/Manager for the USACE (hows that for a sweet entry job? heh) ~ there was a team of 6 core Admins for about 1300 people, and one Dedicated admin for each department (of about 150 people). My last job, there was 1 SysAdmin on-duty for just over 1000 people ~ and it was about as busy as my first job.
I'm tired of the IT industry and its ficklness so I'm going back to school to get a degree as a financial advisor. There are ALWAYS going to be rich people who want to protect their money. They're going to hire someone who has the knowledge/training that they don't have the time to gain themselves, and it'll allow me to better utilize MY money too. It's been on the top 10 most demanded jobs for almost a decade, and #1 for the past 3 years. Can't fuss with constant demand.. Helps that if it fails, I'll have my fiance to fall back on, she's finishing up a PharmD degree and can pretty much write her own check like we IT folks could do in the late 90's. But there's NEVER going to be a boom in that industry with 6 years of college required and only 36 schools (I think) in the country.
Anyway... I hope that those of us without employment find some soon. Good places too, not the 30 mile commute for less $$$ than our bills.
I'm tired of the IT industry and its ficklness so I'm going back to school to get a degree as a financial advisor. There are ALWAYS going to be rich people who want to protect their money. They're going to hire someone who has the knowledge/training that they don't have the time to gain themselves, and it'll allow me to better utilize MY money too. It's been on the top 10 most demanded jobs for almost a decade, and #1 for the past 3 years. Can't fuss with constant demand..
Helps that if it fails, I'll have my fiance to fall back on, she's finishing up a PharmD degree and can pretty much write her own check like we IT folks could do in the late 90's. But there's NEVER going to be a boom in that industry with 6 years of college required and only 36 schools (I think) in the country. Anyway... I hope that those of us without employment find some soon. Good places too, not the 30 mile commute for less $$$ than our bills.
08-29-2003, 05:04 PM
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Let's not confuse IT or IS with dotcom or other vaporware. Much of the dotcom sensation was just that, vaporware. IT or IS is a strategic part of a company's infrastructure. You can't outsource desktop support or maintain your LAN from India, however you can send programming, and other like functions overseas for cheap labor.
I was not in the dotcom sector, but when the stocks took a dive, our company was prime for take over. They called it a merger for SEC and IRS purposes, but the only thing in reality that merged was over 700 of us with the unemployment office. A few big stockholders and the top few of both companies got very rich. The rest got the boot.
Hey, anybody checked out the national defect lately? It's going to be a very long time until the working class American people can pay that off. Things are going to get worse before they get better, IMO.
Randy
I was not in the dotcom sector, but when the stocks took a dive, our company was prime for take over. They called it a merger for SEC and IRS purposes, but the only thing in reality that merged was over 700 of us with the unemployment office. A few big stockholders and the top few of both companies got very rich. The rest got the boot.
Hey, anybody checked out the national defect lately? It's going to be a very long time until the working class American people can pay that off. Things are going to get worse before they get better, IMO.
Randy
08-29-2003, 05:11 PM
#13
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Randy I think you meant national deficit, but I LOVE defect!
IT and IS jobs ARE being sent offshore. India does Phone tech support for several companies..
I'm really glad I worked on developing VOIP so the high tech sector can use thier data trunk lines for free international calls and utilize really cheap labor.
IT and IS jobs ARE being sent offshore. India does Phone tech support for several companies..
I'm really glad I worked on developing VOIP so the high tech sector can use thier data trunk lines for free international calls and utilize really cheap labor.
08-29-2003, 05:35 PM
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****. Thats where its at. Ive seriously considered becoming the next **** peddlar and outdoing Larry Flynts empire. Larry got his start in my hometown so I want to carry on the legacy.
How many **** site owners do you know having major problems with sales. Exactly. And that benefits package. Who needs a Mont Blanc for Christmas when you have Jamie Jugs. Its all about online **** anymore. No bricks and mortar. No heavy payrolls. Just a couple cameras, a couple lights, a web cam, a boom mike, and you are set. Before long you'll be wearing a robe all day like Hef and lighting cigars with rolls of twentys.
I want to work from home, put in my own hours, and be my own boss. Theres only one Sharper Image, but there are 10,000 **** peddlars online. If no one is buying it, why are there 10,000. I want to bring dignity back to the adult entertainment business. I figure $11.95/mth x 50,000 subscribers yields $600,000/month in positive cash flow. Throw out a couple hundred grand a month for getting Jenna Jamison and props, and you are still looking at three or four hundred large a month. Even with my extravagant lifestyle I could live on that.
That is my dream. Now I will go back to my cubicle and finish up transferring these files through a firewall.
Ahem.
How many **** site owners do you know having major problems with sales. Exactly. And that benefits package. Who needs a Mont Blanc for Christmas when you have Jamie Jugs. Its all about online **** anymore. No bricks and mortar. No heavy payrolls. Just a couple cameras, a couple lights, a web cam, a boom mike, and you are set. Before long you'll be wearing a robe all day like Hef and lighting cigars with rolls of twentys.
I want to work from home, put in my own hours, and be my own boss. Theres only one Sharper Image, but there are 10,000 **** peddlars online. If no one is buying it, why are there 10,000. I want to bring dignity back to the adult entertainment business. I figure $11.95/mth x 50,000 subscribers yields $600,000/month in positive cash flow. Throw out a couple hundred grand a month for getting Jenna Jamison and props, and you are still looking at three or four hundred large a month. Even with my extravagant lifestyle I could live on that.
That is my dream. Now I will go back to my cubicle and finish up transferring these files through a firewall.
Ahem.