No Start After Clutch Job
05-02-2014, 01:21 PM
#48
Instructor
Thread Starter
Van,
Sorry, still no dice. I will let everyone know when (if) I get it up and running.
I just did a compression test. I had not done one previously, as I can tell that the car has compression when it cranks over. About 90psi in each cylinder. Remember, I'm at 9000ft above sea level.
The problem has not been compression, but no spark or fuel.
Thanks for sticking with the thread. Again, I appreciate any suggestions.
Perry
Sorry, still no dice. I will let everyone know when (if) I get it up and running.
I just did a compression test. I had not done one previously, as I can tell that the car has compression when it cranks over. About 90psi in each cylinder. Remember, I'm at 9000ft above sea level.
The problem has not been compression, but no spark or fuel.
Thanks for sticking with the thread. Again, I appreciate any suggestions.
Perry
05-02-2014, 01:33 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
What I'd do next: try to figure out if it's spark or fuel that's missing.
You can pull the fuel rail/injectors out of the intake manifold, but leave everything hooked up. You can tilt the fuel rail so the injectors are kind of firing sideways, then crank the engine and look under the hood to see if they mist fuel out.
You can pull the fuel rail/injectors out of the intake manifold, but leave everything hooked up. You can tilt the fuel rail so the injectors are kind of firing sideways, then crank the engine and look under the hood to see if they mist fuel out.
05-02-2014, 02:33 PM
#50
Instructor
Thread Starter
Both, no spark or fuel. I have cranked it with the plugs out and I get no fuel. I have the coil wire hooked to a grounded spark plug and get no spark.
Perry
Perry
05-02-2014, 03:16 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
And you're getting your speed and ref signals to the DME plug? And they're wired up correctly? Have you switched them for ****-n-giggles?
And you're getting power at the coil's + side with the ignition on?
05-02-2014, 05:10 PM
#53
Instructor
Thread Starter
Exactly!
I have listed all the lastest testing that I've done on post #45 in this thread.
Please don't hesitate to question me about any of the steps I've taken during the clutch job that I've done or any of the diagnosis work that I've done.
Perry
I have listed all the lastest testing that I've done on post #45 in this thread.
Please don't hesitate to question me about any of the steps I've taken during the clutch job that I've done or any of the diagnosis work that I've done.
Perry
05-02-2014, 07:22 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
05-02-2014, 08:34 PM
#55
Instructor
Thread Starter
Nope. DME gets 12v at terminals 18 and 35 during cranking and with the key in the on position. Also the coil and the fuel pump are activated with 12v with the key in the on and start positions.
I really have tried my best to methodically go through all the possible causes for this no start. The only problem that I can seem to isolate is that the DME fails to send the ignition pulse to the KLR. This was my conclusion about 3 weeks ago also. I send for a new DME only to plug it in and still have the car not start.
This leads me to 3 possible conditions.
1) I have done something that damaged the new (and maybe the old) DME. What this would be, I have no idea.
2) The new DME is defective. This is, to my mind, the least likely choice.
3) There is something else that prevents the DME from operating correctly. Again, what that would be, I have no idea--hence my posts on this website.
During all the work that I did during the clutch job I encountered nothing odd--nothing that sticks out in my mind as a possible explanation of the no start.
While I removed the speed/reference sensors I broke the speed one and was pretty rough with the reference one getting them removed. They have both been replaced and gapped. They have also had their harness connections to the DME replaced. They both pass all the test I have given to them.
When I went to replace the bell housing I slotted the sensor port to ease installation. I have been assured that this would not cause the no start. This assurance concurs with the oscilloscope's correct displays during the test for these sensors.
Perry
I really have tried my best to methodically go through all the possible causes for this no start. The only problem that I can seem to isolate is that the DME fails to send the ignition pulse to the KLR. This was my conclusion about 3 weeks ago also. I send for a new DME only to plug it in and still have the car not start.
This leads me to 3 possible conditions.
1) I have done something that damaged the new (and maybe the old) DME. What this would be, I have no idea.
2) The new DME is defective. This is, to my mind, the least likely choice.
3) There is something else that prevents the DME from operating correctly. Again, what that would be, I have no idea--hence my posts on this website.
During all the work that I did during the clutch job I encountered nothing odd--nothing that sticks out in my mind as a possible explanation of the no start.
While I removed the speed/reference sensors I broke the speed one and was pretty rough with the reference one getting them removed. They have both been replaced and gapped. They have also had their harness connections to the DME replaced. They both pass all the test I have given to them.
When I went to replace the bell housing I slotted the sensor port to ease installation. I have been assured that this would not cause the no start. This assurance concurs with the oscilloscope's correct displays during the test for these sensors.
Perry
05-03-2014, 11:39 AM
#56
Instructor
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Specsalot,
Thanks again for your thorough reply.
This weekend I made a point of going through the DME test plan one step at a time. Here are the results...
Test point #1--Grounds and connections. I have removed and inspected the ground connections at the firewall as well as the top of the engine block and clutch housing. All are tight and clean. I also removed the connections at the AFM, throttle switch, DME temp sensor, speed and reference sensors, the cycling valve, the grounds in the interior fender wells, the grounds under the dash, and the main harness connections to the DME and KLR. All clean and good.
Test point #2--Voltage to the DME and KLR. I have tested for both voltage DME pins 35 and 5, as well as 18 and 5. They have battery voltage with the key on, and when cranking. With the KLR pins 6 and 14 I get battery voltage with the key on and while cranking. The DME, KLR, and fuel pump all get power.
Test points #3 and #4--Speed and Reference Sensors. I have spent more time with these two sensors than anything else on the car. They are brand new, and so is the harness that connects them to the DME. All my tests have been through this harness at the DME connection. They each have about 880 ohms. During cranking the speed sensor develops about 2.5 AC volts. During cranking the oscilloscope shows a sine wave voltage of about 12 DC volts for this sensor.
During cranking the reference sensor develops about 0.12 AC volts. During cranking the reference sensor sends out a single repeating spike with an initial positive slope of about 12 DC volts. Every test shows that they both are working correctly and are sending that correct information to the DME.
Test point #5--Ignition System. All the HT ignition wires have the correct resistance, are free from cracks and shorts. The distributor cap is used, but shows no evidence of carbon tracking. The rotor is firmly attached to the camshaft. The coil has the correct primary and secondary resistance. The ignition switch sends 12 volt to the positive side of the coil with the key in the on and start positions.
Test point #6--AFM. All the wires from the DME to the AFM have continuity. The AFM gets 5 volts measured by removing the back cover of the DME wiring harness connector and probing the back of female pin connector 9 and ground. Probing the back of female pin 7 and ground I get 255 millivolts with the flap closed, and increasing voltage as I move the flap. Using an old-style needle volt meter, I then tested and found that the voltage increased smoothly up to about 4.5 volts with no dead spots. I also tested the air temp sensor in the AFM: 3,500 ohms--correct for the temp in my garage.
Test point #7--Fuel Pressure. Low 30's to mid 30's.
Test point #8--Idle Actuator. Not part of the test plan for a no start.
Test point #9--Throttle Switch. Ohm reading between pin 2 and ground is .8 ohms with the throttle closed that then goes Open as soon as the throttle is moved. I get 5 volts between plug terminals 1 and 2 on the connector. Using my needle voltmeter I get about (analog scale) 500 ohms at KLR terminals 22 and 23. As I open the throttle the resistance increases smoothly without breaks to a maximum of 4,500 ohms.
Test point #10--DME water temp sensor. Again, about 3,500 ohms--correct for the temp of the garage.
Test point #11--Injectors. Injectors will fire when powered and grounded. There is continuity between the injector connectors and terminals 14 and 15 on the DME.
Test point #12--Knock Sensor Blink Code. The car needs to be started and driven before the KLR stores error codes. As per the test plan's suggestion I have bypassed the KLR by bridging pins 9 and 16 with no positive results.
Test point #13--Vacuum/Pressure Sealing. I have checked the tightness of the hose clamps that secure all the main intake hoses. I have traced out all the smaller vacuum lines and find no problems. During cranking, the AFM flap moves as the engine the draws in air.
Test point #14--Altitude Compensator. Not part of the test plan for a no start.
Test point #15--Ignition Signal to KLR. Failed. Confer with my previous posts.
Test point #16--Oxygen Sensor. Again, not part of the test plan for a no start.
These results represent much time and learning on my part, but I am still completely stumped.
Specsalot, I have no idea where the connction in the passenger's foot well is for the tachometer. I have looked and not found anything. I don't think that the tach has anything to do with this problem but seemed a possibility as it as well as the KLR should get the ignition signal from DME pin 21.
All results point to a bad DME, especially test point 15. However, is there some other cause that would prevent the DME from sending the ignition signal to the KLR? All the wires that connect the DME to the KLR have continuity.
My next step?
Thanks for all the support and suggestions from everyone on the list, especially Specsalot. Without this encouragement I would have pushed the car off a cliff by now.
Perry
Thanks again for your thorough reply.
This weekend I made a point of going through the DME test plan one step at a time. Here are the results...
Test point #1--Grounds and connections. I have removed and inspected the ground connections at the firewall as well as the top of the engine block and clutch housing. All are tight and clean. I also removed the connections at the AFM, throttle switch, DME temp sensor, speed and reference sensors, the cycling valve, the grounds in the interior fender wells, the grounds under the dash, and the main harness connections to the DME and KLR. All clean and good.
Test point #2--Voltage to the DME and KLR. I have tested for both voltage DME pins 35 and 5, as well as 18 and 5. They have battery voltage with the key on, and when cranking. With the KLR pins 6 and 14 I get battery voltage with the key on and while cranking. The DME, KLR, and fuel pump all get power.
Test points #3 and #4--Speed and Reference Sensors. I have spent more time with these two sensors than anything else on the car. They are brand new, and so is the harness that connects them to the DME. All my tests have been through this harness at the DME connection. They each have about 880 ohms. During cranking the speed sensor develops about 2.5 AC volts. During cranking the oscilloscope shows a sine wave voltage of about 12 DC volts for this sensor.
During cranking the reference sensor develops about 0.12 AC volts. During cranking the reference sensor sends out a single repeating spike with an initial positive slope of about 12 DC volts. Every test shows that they both are working correctly and are sending that correct information to the DME.
Test point #5--Ignition System. All the HT ignition wires have the correct resistance, are free from cracks and shorts. The distributor cap is used, but shows no evidence of carbon tracking. The rotor is firmly attached to the camshaft. The coil has the correct primary and secondary resistance. The ignition switch sends 12 volt to the positive side of the coil with the key in the on and start positions.
Test point #6--AFM. All the wires from the DME to the AFM have continuity. The AFM gets 5 volts measured by removing the back cover of the DME wiring harness connector and probing the back of female pin connector 9 and ground. Probing the back of female pin 7 and ground I get 255 millivolts with the flap closed, and increasing voltage as I move the flap. Using an old-style needle volt meter, I then tested and found that the voltage increased smoothly up to about 4.5 volts with no dead spots. I also tested the air temp sensor in the AFM: 3,500 ohms--correct for the temp in my garage.
Test point #7--Fuel Pressure. Low 30's to mid 30's.
Test point #8--Idle Actuator. Not part of the test plan for a no start.
Test point #9--Throttle Switch. Ohm reading between pin 2 and ground is .8 ohms with the throttle closed that then goes Open as soon as the throttle is moved. I get 5 volts between plug terminals 1 and 2 on the connector. Using my needle voltmeter I get about (analog scale) 500 ohms at KLR terminals 22 and 23. As I open the throttle the resistance increases smoothly without breaks to a maximum of 4,500 ohms.
Test point #10--DME water temp sensor. Again, about 3,500 ohms--correct for the temp of the garage.
Test point #11--Injectors. Injectors will fire when powered and grounded. There is continuity between the injector connectors and terminals 14 and 15 on the DME.
Test point #12--Knock Sensor Blink Code. The car needs to be started and driven before the KLR stores error codes. As per the test plan's suggestion I have bypassed the KLR by bridging pins 9 and 16 with no positive results.
Test point #13--Vacuum/Pressure Sealing. I have checked the tightness of the hose clamps that secure all the main intake hoses. I have traced out all the smaller vacuum lines and find no problems. During cranking, the AFM flap moves as the engine the draws in air.
Test point #14--Altitude Compensator. Not part of the test plan for a no start.
Test point #15--Ignition Signal to KLR. Failed. Confer with my previous posts.
Test point #16--Oxygen Sensor. Again, not part of the test plan for a no start.
These results represent much time and learning on my part, but I am still completely stumped.
Specsalot, I have no idea where the connction in the passenger's foot well is for the tachometer. I have looked and not found anything. I don't think that the tach has anything to do with this problem but seemed a possibility as it as well as the KLR should get the ignition signal from DME pin 21.
All results point to a bad DME, especially test point 15. However, is there some other cause that would prevent the DME from sending the ignition signal to the KLR? All the wires that connect the DME to the KLR have continuity.
My next step?
Thanks for all the support and suggestions from everyone on the list, especially Specsalot. Without this encouragement I would have pushed the car off a cliff by now.
Perry
Given the RMS voltages you've measured on your crank probes, I suspect you have an electronics problem. More and more I believe you are in a situation like the one I faced (KLR problem has killed your rebuilt DME). Let me know if we want to try to plug / play your electronics in my car? Keep working at it - You will solve this