Catz Zeta System
01-24-2002, 06:12 PM
#1
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Catz Zeta System
Marksportcts, I found out what your Catz Zeta system is and it is as I suspected, snake oil. 
Most aged car's headlight electrical systems are poor and drop voltage, especially if you overwatt. The real solution is to rewire to deliver full voltage down to the bulbs. This doesn't cost all that much.
Catz recognizes this but figured out an expensive "marketing solution" to separate you from your money. What you spent your $270 to $325 on is a simple box that contains a capacitor that diverts your electrical power, sucks it up and spits it out to the lights at higher voltage. Think of it as an expensive and real fast strobe light effect.
This has got to play hell on bulb life and I suspect it fools the eye into thinking it sees better but you probably see worse. Ever been on a strobe lit dance floor?
Don't know enough about eye physiology to trash this approach properly.
While they are certainly correct in assuming lights may get very poor voltage, the Catz "technician" kept talking about headlights only getting around 9 volts. What a joke. Anyway, as you wait for your insurance, pull that "system" and rewire the headlights properly and put 13.9 volts, or whatever your alternator puts out, down to the headlights on a constant basis.
You can get on the list for my proposed headlight system upgrade and you can buy just the wiring parts and DIY, or get the complete wiring harness. The wiring harness won't cost all that much, certainly much less than you already spent, and will improve all the rest of the car's electrics due to the better grounds and load off the fuse board. Both are weak points in our cars.
Let me know, getting close to having enough takers.
Most aged car's headlight electrical systems are poor and drop voltage, especially if you overwatt. The real solution is to rewire to deliver full voltage down to the bulbs. This doesn't cost all that much.
Catz recognizes this but figured out an expensive "marketing solution" to separate you from your money. What you spent your $270 to $325 on is a simple box that contains a capacitor that diverts your electrical power, sucks it up and spits it out to the lights at higher voltage. Think of it as an expensive and real fast strobe light effect.
This has got to play hell on bulb life and I suspect it fools the eye into thinking it sees better but you probably see worse. Ever been on a strobe lit dance floor?
Don't know enough about eye physiology to trash this approach properly.While they are certainly correct in assuming lights may get very poor voltage, the Catz "technician" kept talking about headlights only getting around 9 volts. What a joke. Anyway, as you wait for your insurance, pull that "system" and rewire the headlights properly and put 13.9 volts, or whatever your alternator puts out, down to the headlights on a constant basis.
You can get on the list for my proposed headlight system upgrade and you can buy just the wiring parts and DIY, or get the complete wiring harness. The wiring harness won't cost all that much, certainly much less than you already spent, and will improve all the rest of the car's electrics due to the better grounds and load off the fuse board. Both are weak points in our cars.
Let me know, getting close to having enough takers.
01-24-2002, 06:38 PM
#2
Pro
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ice:
i'll start by saying that you looked into this and i didn't, so everything i'm going to say is just a guess.... but for that kind of money it seems they could be delivering some kind of dc-dc convertor feeding a voltage regulator. ie, it sucks in, say 10 amps at 12.5 volts and delivers up to 6 or 7 amps at 13.9 volts.... in which case it would be a perfectly effective (albeit incredibly expensive) solution to voltage drop on the supply wires.
i couldn't say without looking at the output on a scope but it seems like they are charging enough to be able to afford to put in some filtering and regulation such that there wouldn't be an ac component to the output.
and i'm not sure if halogens are the same, but normal incandescent lights seem to live fine on high frequency AC... any "dimmer" style switch for normal household lighting is just changing the duty cycle of some high frequency (kHz) pulse modulation to adjust the light output.
i'll start by saying that you looked into this and i didn't, so everything i'm going to say is just a guess.... but for that kind of money it seems they could be delivering some kind of dc-dc convertor feeding a voltage regulator. ie, it sucks in, say 10 amps at 12.5 volts and delivers up to 6 or 7 amps at 13.9 volts.... in which case it would be a perfectly effective (albeit incredibly expensive) solution to voltage drop on the supply wires.
i couldn't say without looking at the output on a scope but it seems like they are charging enough to be able to afford to put in some filtering and regulation such that there wouldn't be an ac component to the output.
and i'm not sure if halogens are the same, but normal incandescent lights seem to live fine on high frequency AC... any "dimmer" style switch for normal household lighting is just changing the duty cycle of some high frequency (kHz) pulse modulation to adjust the light output.
01-24-2002, 06:47 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Abbotsford, B.C.
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, about 2 years ago, I rewired my entire headlamp system with 8gauge wire, which is capable of handling just about anything that the lights will need. The Catz were new for about $150 and the bulbs are about $9 a pair. Surprisingly, the bulbs have lasted for 6 months with the Catz and 11 months before that at 90watts low beam.
01-24-2002, 07:12 PM
#4
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Ben, you may be on to an angle as I think the "tech" was full of crap, but that is what he said. shrug
In any event, the current demand is higher than the stock wiring can deliver, while keeping delivery high enough, I believe. Otherwise, from a common sense stand point, who needs big wires? (I understand your cost issue) But they were talking caps and pulses.
Say, didn't we have a discussion on the skin effect? Well in this case you might know a lot more than me, but I suspect the whole thing is BS. And in any event, not the best solution.
The halogen regenerative cycle demands a minimum operating temp to work so is unlike the typical household tungsten filaments that you may be familiar with.
Go talk to a Phillips designer and he can answer your detailed questions fully. I have just been trying to debunk a lot of the scams so folks don't waste their money.
Edit, Mark, if you have 8 gauge in there, you should be fine. Just take a voltage reading at the lights under load. That is the proof. I still need to be convinced the Cazt is not snake oil.
In any event, the current demand is higher than the stock wiring can deliver, while keeping delivery high enough, I believe. Otherwise, from a common sense stand point, who needs big wires? (I understand your cost issue) But they were talking caps and pulses.
Say, didn't we have a discussion on the skin effect?
Well in this case you might know a lot more than me, but I suspect the whole thing is BS. And in any event, not the best solution.The halogen regenerative cycle demands a minimum operating temp to work so is unlike the typical household tungsten filaments that you may be familiar with.
Go talk to a Phillips designer and he can answer your detailed questions fully. I have just been trying to debunk a lot of the scams so folks don't waste their money.
Edit, Mark, if you have 8 gauge in there, you should be fine. Just take a voltage reading at the lights under load. That is the proof. I still need to be convinced the Cazt is not snake oil.
01-24-2002, 08:33 PM
#5
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Originally posted by IceShark:
<STRONG>Edit, Mark, if you have 8 gauge in there, you should be fine.</STRONG>
<STRONG>Edit, Mark, if you have 8 gauge in there, you should be fine.</STRONG>
14 gauge should be just fine to the bulbs themselves.
01-25-2002, 02:23 AM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
No, he doesn't need his head looked at any more than you do. All in all, I would say that 8 ga is crazy to run to the headlights, that is what feeders are for, but you are a nut to say 14 ga.
01-25-2002, 03:38 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Abbotsford, B.C.
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My mistake again, I did not use any 8 gauge at all: from the battery thru a fuse to the relay is 4gauge. From each relay, one low and one high beam, is a 10gauge to each bulb. The ground is also a 10 gauge.
Trending Topics
01-25-2002, 05:25 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Ams, NL
Posts: 1,210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IceShark
Thanks for the tip
Would subscribe to your upgrade offer if I was living in USA..
I'll stick to my overwatted 90/120 W Philips H4 bulbs with idividual feeders and relays.
Average bulb life is 100.000 miles (I run low beams whenever I drive, day or night...)
Take Care
Thanks for the tip
Would subscribe to your upgrade offer if I was living in USA..
I'll stick to my overwatted 90/120 W Philips H4 bulbs with idividual feeders and relays.
Average bulb life is 100.000 miles (I run low beams whenever I drive, day or night...)
Take Care
01-25-2002, 06:37 AM
#9
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Ice, you are right anything that runs an inverter is losing efficiency, and wattes equals volts times amps,if you are running through existing looms to cure a problem then your voltage will drop as current increases (due to copper resistivity) and your available power will drop as you increase the load.
And as for the halagon effect you are quite correct there too, one thing to watch if ou have 100/80 bulbs is that you should not fit stick on plastic covers to the Euro H4 lenses, the lenses get too hot and the glass breaks if the car isn't moving.
And as for the halagon effect you are quite correct there too, one thing to watch if ou have 100/80 bulbs is that you should not fit stick on plastic covers to the Euro H4 lenses, the lenses get too hot and the glass breaks if the car isn't moving.
01-25-2002, 11:06 AM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Hans, long time no see!
How on earth do you get 100,000 miles out of a pair of 90 watt bulbs? If you are running them all the time, that is getting up on the order of 3,000 hours. HID life ranges. The only thing I would suspect is your bulbs are operating way under voltage due to wiring losses.
Halogen bulb light output drops on the order of well more than a cube rate to voltage, the 3.4th power is a common rule of thumb when you are close to design voltage.
If you want some of the upgrade fixings I can ship them over fairly cheap. No import duty, not sure what you would have to do about VAT, but I'll certainly not report it to them.
Everyone that wants to figure out just where their light system stands should borrow a voltmeter. Start the car up and turn on the electrical items you normally run at night, radio, lights and maybe the fan at lower speed. Then measure delivered voltage at a head light while it is burning. If you don't hit in the high 13 volt area, do the 3.4 power math and that is what you are losing in potential light output.
When I first got into this kick, I upgraded to some 80/100 watt bulbs from 55watt. Turns out that I was operating at about 10.5 volts. So my great upgrade in wattage was more or less totally shot on voltage losses. Plus the wires got pretty warm. Perry can talk more about hot wire problems from first hand knowledge!
It is a pain to rewire but your heart feels really warm when you pop on the lights late at night.
Martin, a big yes confirmation about the plastic covers on overwatt headlights. Those babies get hotter than a pistol. Another reason you want a quality headlight. The cheaper ones that sell on FleaBay for $40 bucks a pair, fall apart or have the lenses crack with that duty. You only want to buy these lenses once and be done with it.
How on earth do you get 100,000 miles out of a pair of 90 watt bulbs? If you are running them all the time, that is getting up on the order of 3,000 hours. HID life ranges. The only thing I would suspect is your bulbs are operating way under voltage due to wiring losses.
Halogen bulb light output drops on the order of well more than a cube rate to voltage, the 3.4th power is a common rule of thumb when you are close to design voltage.
If you want some of the upgrade fixings I can ship them over fairly cheap. No import duty, not sure what you would have to do about VAT, but I'll certainly not report it to them.
Everyone that wants to figure out just where their light system stands should borrow a voltmeter. Start the car up and turn on the electrical items you normally run at night, radio, lights and maybe the fan at lower speed. Then measure delivered voltage at a head light while it is burning. If you don't hit in the high 13 volt area, do the 3.4 power math and that is what you are losing in potential light output.
When I first got into this kick, I upgraded to some 80/100 watt bulbs from 55watt. Turns out that I was operating at about 10.5 volts. So my great upgrade in wattage was more or less totally shot on voltage losses. Plus the wires got pretty warm. Perry can talk more about hot wire problems from first hand knowledge!
It is a pain to rewire but your heart feels really warm when you pop on the lights late at night.
Martin, a big yes confirmation about the plastic covers on overwatt headlights. Those babies get hotter than a pistol. Another reason you want a quality headlight. The cheaper ones that sell on FleaBay for $40 bucks a pair, fall apart or have the lenses crack with that duty. You only want to buy these lenses once and be done with it.
01-25-2002, 11:45 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Ams, NL
Posts: 1,210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi IceShark
Yes, it has been for a wile, had to do some work you know...
They realy lasted that long, this to my surprise as well. Voltage measured (Audi-80)was 12.2, which was good enough for me.
I think the trick is that I hardly stop with the lights on. Normal traffic is mostly motorway so they are cooled on a constant basis.
With the first car with this mod, I managed to melt down the plastic connector housing that connects to the lamp. That was what made me re-wire and feed the lamps direct from the battery, switched via relays.
All cars I owed from that one on had the same mod (swapped from car to car).
Dont know how long they last with the flipping headlights in the 944/951 since this will affect the cooling after shut-off. The car is a garage queen, in hybernation mode at the moment..
Take Care
Yes, it has been for a wile, had to do some work you know...
How on earth do you get 100,000 miles out...
I think the trick is that I hardly stop with the lights on. Normal traffic is mostly motorway so they are cooled on a constant basis.
With the first car with this mod, I managed to melt down the plastic connector housing that connects to the lamp. That was what made me re-wire and feed the lamps direct from the battery, switched via relays.
All cars I owed from that one on had the same mod (swapped from car to car).
Dont know how long they last with the flipping headlights in the 944/951 since this will affect the cooling after shut-off. The car is a garage queen, in hybernation mode at the moment..
Take Care
01-25-2002, 12:14 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Hans, "Garage Queen", ROFLMAO! I love that term everytime I hear it. 
I don't think the cool temp extends the life much, or any. The newer technology trys to keep the high temps in the bulb by applying reflective coatings like one does to windows on the house. As an aside, tungsten is the highest melting point known on the perodic table (something on the order of 3,500C) and the halogen cycle just drops the atoms that do go to free form back on the filament. And this needs high temps, well, that is the theory as I understand it.
That 12.2 volts is the answer. That is sort of low, probably 70% of design light output. Bulb manufacturers are very closed mouth about specs and such, but if you have a first class bulb like Phillips in there, that would explain it.
You will note a big increase in light if you get that voltage up to 13.8 or so. I would clean up this light harness you are dragging from one car to the other, 12.2 volt delivered may be OK for stock but is a failing grade for upgrades.
Regards
I don't think the cool temp extends the life much, or any. The newer technology trys to keep the high temps in the bulb by applying reflective coatings like one does to windows on the house. As an aside, tungsten is the highest melting point known on the perodic table (something on the order of 3,500C) and the halogen cycle just drops the atoms that do go to free form back on the filament. And this needs high temps, well, that is the theory as I understand it.
That 12.2 volts is the answer. That is sort of low, probably 70% of design light output. Bulb manufacturers are very closed mouth about specs and such, but if you have a first class bulb like Phillips in there, that would explain it.
You will note a big increase in light if you get that voltage up to 13.8 or so. I would clean up this light harness you are dragging from one car to the other, 12.2 volt delivered may be OK for stock but is a failing grade for upgrades.
Regards
01-25-2002, 12:19 PM
#13
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have a question that I'm hoping someone can help me with... I got my turn signals to finally work after de-customizing a lot of wiring on my 86 turbo, but now the headlights don't come on either!!! The headlights ran off the front parking lights originally, how terrible! No relays or anything either. So the headlights would come on when the parking lights were turned on, even with the ignition off!!! 
One thing that confuses me is how the high beams ever worked, as I'm not getting power out of the high beam circuitry either. I have a new headlight switch, checked the fuses (I don't think any current is going through the fuse though, there's no power at the fuse(s) for the headlights, even with the switch in the on position, and ignition on). What do you think the problem could be? Any ideas?
BTW Ice, I'd just like to thank you for drawing my attention to headlight upgrades a few months ago. I was getting somewhere around 10.7 with several accessories on at idle before re-wiring with relays on my 84 944. After the wiring it wouldn't go below ~13.2 or so. There was an enormous difference. One of my halogen bulbs burnt out last week (I have 4 sets of headlights at the moment, but only one set of H4s) so I popped in my original 55watt sealed beams in for a while (I think I'm going to put the H4s in my turbo after I rewire everything with relays). Even the original sealed beams work quite well when they get the power they're supposed to get
Thanks again,
Ahmet
One thing that confuses me is how the high beams ever worked, as I'm not getting power out of the high beam circuitry either. I have a new headlight switch, checked the fuses (I don't think any current is going through the fuse though, there's no power at the fuse(s) for the headlights, even with the switch in the on position, and ignition on). What do you think the problem could be? Any ideas?BTW Ice, I'd just like to thank you for drawing my attention to headlight upgrades a few months ago. I was getting somewhere around 10.7 with several accessories on at idle before re-wiring with relays on my 84 944. After the wiring it wouldn't go below ~13.2 or so. There was an enormous difference. One of my halogen bulbs burnt out last week (I have 4 sets of headlights at the moment, but only one set of H4s) so I popped in my original 55watt sealed beams in for a while (I think I'm going to put the H4s in my turbo after I rewire everything with relays). Even the original sealed beams work quite well when they get the power they're supposed to get
Thanks again,
Ahmet
01-25-2002, 12:51 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Ahmet, it is tough to say what your problem is without being there, but I would suspect a fuse/relay board problem. That thing is pretty lightweight. I guess at this point I would just bypass the whole scheme to drive the lights off the switch to your new headlights.
I'm glad your headlight retrofit worked well, but 13.2 is not that great a delivered voltage for retrofit efforts. Target is 13.5v, everything over that gets the Bs and As in grading. A+ is what comes off the alternator. Remember the conversation we had about taking power off the battery v alt ? I'm pretty sure you could pop delivered by about half a volt taking off the alt.
You are also right about original sealed beams. Lights are very sensitive to voltage.
If you want some replacement H-4 bulbs, I have some Phillips/Narva 90/100 for sale at $10 a copy. Top quality, made in Germany, clear. Also with UV quartz in case you are foolish enough to put these in a plastic lens that won't melt before the UV kills it. Or put your eyeballs up close to the light.
I'm glad your headlight retrofit worked well, but 13.2 is not that great a delivered voltage for retrofit efforts. Target is 13.5v, everything over that gets the Bs and As in grading. A+ is what comes off the alternator. Remember the conversation we had about taking power off the battery v alt ? I'm pretty sure you could pop delivered by about half a volt taking off the alt.
You are also right about original sealed beams. Lights are very sensitive to voltage.
If you want some replacement H-4 bulbs, I have some Phillips/Narva 90/100 for sale at $10 a copy. Top quality, made in Germany, clear. Also with UV quartz in case you are foolish enough to put these in a plastic lens that won't melt before the UV kills it. Or put your eyeballs up close to the light.
