Project: Eaton M90 s/c on '83 944
09-08-2013, 05:14 PM
#16
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LSx will inevitably happen in one of the other 944's, sometime in the not-too-distant future. 
January 2014 marks the 10 years I've owned the 86 "orange" car as I now call it. So 2014 will be the year for this car to live once again.
Congratulations in advance. 
January 2014 marks the 10 years I've owned the 86 "orange" car as I now call it. So 2014 will be the year for this car to live once again.
09-08-2013, 05:51 PM
#18
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I suppose the next step is... accumulating money so I can actually buy more **** to make this work properly.
Elliott, would my config be in the danger zone? My ultimate criterion is a reliable car.
Elliott, would my config be in the danger zone? My ultimate criterion is a reliable car.
09-08-2013, 07:34 PM
#20
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My entire setup was directly pulled from one 944 that ran autocross for several years, and swapped onto my 944, giving me the benefit of not having to build all the custom parts. I have some pictures of the brackets and all that junk, but no measurements. Both the supercharged car before mine and mine were both running 13psi (using a Ford Racing blower pulley, and a much larger than stock crank pulley). The car before mine with the setup had his dyno tuned at put down 220hp / 240tq to the wheels. Not sure what type of dyno or any of that info, but it was reportedly waaaay faster than his bone stock 951 daily driver.
The reason I blew my motor was because I installed the complete setup onto a old worn out 150k mileage motor, with the tune not dialed in properly, and he had his running on a freshly built motor, with a more accurate tune.
This next time around, I plan on doing a full Megasquirt system and deleting a lot of the factory crap. It will all be installed on a sleeved 2.8T motor as well. Should be a nice powerful build with a handsome spec sheet of parts.
09-08-2013, 07:44 PM
#21
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Just a quick note for clarification:
With the 951 DME, you would also need to run the 951 KLR (and obviously the wiring harness from the 951).
The early 944 DME cannot use the 951 AFM, this is true. However, the late 944 DME can use the 951 AFM with the correct software.
Additionally, the GM blower is a pain because of the bolt-pattern. Definitely easier to use an M90 out of a Ford, with its rectangular bolt-pattern.
With the 951 DME, you would also need to run the 951 KLR (and obviously the wiring harness from the 951).
The early 944 DME cannot use the 951 AFM, this is true. However, the late 944 DME can use the 951 AFM with the correct software.
Additionally, the GM blower is a pain because of the bolt-pattern. Definitely easier to use an M90 out of a Ford, with its rectangular bolt-pattern.
09-08-2013, 07:49 PM
#22
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My build is fresh (4k miles) but I know very little about tuning. I have a lightened crank, 951 valvetrain parts (springs and cam grind), balance shafts deleted, and AC deleted. Manual steering of course. The s/c would be extending the alt belt.
I think I'm just going to sell the Eaton after I freshen it up for a profit, and start a fund. I would rather do this right than do it cheap.
I think I'm just going to sell the Eaton after I freshen it up for a profit, and start a fund. I would rather do this right than do it cheap.
09-08-2013, 09:01 PM
#23
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Just a quick note for clarification:
With the 951 DME, you would also need to run the 951 KLR (and obviously the wiring harness from the 951).
The early 944 DME cannot use the 951 AFM, this is true. However, the late 944 DME can use the 951 AFM with the correct software.
With the 951 DME, you would also need to run the 951 KLR (and obviously the wiring harness from the 951).
The early 944 DME cannot use the 951 AFM, this is true. However, the late 944 DME can use the 951 AFM with the correct software.
09-08-2013, 09:54 PM
#24
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wait.
250 hp on an '83 with an Eaton supercharger?? seriously??
that's a very nice supercharger, and it's surely a good deal better than what you'd get from a centrifugal unit.... but, I was thinking more like, maybe a 26~33.7 hp gain with a few ponies of wiggle room for that 49 year old 8 valve engine...
there's a very good reason very few production engines, let alone four cylinder production engines (historically) have come with supercharger options; there's a ton development that goes in..... but, sometimes you can cheat, and pull a production supercharger off one engine model and make it work for another engine.
yet, seeing even a 45~50 hp gain for a four cylinder engine running a parasitical, hot air maker/pumper (supercharger) presents an awesome challenge, and would be a near-monumental accomplishment for this engine if it made anywhere near that kind of stable/dependable power over a full tb/bs belt interval.
Carl Fawcett's (928 Motorsports)'s attempt with the fire breathing, 3.0 4 valve 968 Variocam was like, a 68 hp gain (and even then, the dyno queen numbers were fleeting).... the encouraging dyno numbers were followed by nearly endless problems during the next 3 years for the folks who purchased his early units. minimum gains saw hp gains that could be measured in minutes, but not (hours) before belt slippage or failure....
it wasn't until what basically amounts to a stage 3 kit was developed with a tooth drive belt system that they were able to hold more than 50 hp without cooking belts, but still never managed more than 4~4.5 pounds of boost... and all this after a significant development effort from a guy who'd been developing superchargers for the 928 for years.
and after all the drama, the belt life would be properly measured in hours.... unfortunately, once modest power gains were seen, a few of the Raptors imploded straight into the 3.0's intakes. BOOM.
SUPERCHARGERS SUCK. well, centrifugal units anyway... after one of these deals is
properly developed, try not to faint when you see how much your fuel mileage plummets.
if you insist on developing a supercharger for one of these engines,
stick with a Ford roots Supercoupe unit. like the one (V2 Rocket) runs.
250 hp on an '83 with an Eaton supercharger?? seriously??
that's a very nice supercharger, and it's surely a good deal better than what you'd get from a centrifugal unit.... but, I was thinking more like, maybe a 26~33.7 hp gain with a few ponies of wiggle room for that 49 year old 8 valve engine...
there's a very good reason very few production engines, let alone four cylinder production engines (historically) have come with supercharger options; there's a ton development that goes in..... but, sometimes you can cheat, and pull a production supercharger off one engine model and make it work for another engine.
yet, seeing even a 45~50 hp gain for a four cylinder engine running a parasitical, hot air maker/pumper (supercharger) presents an awesome challenge, and would be a near-monumental accomplishment for this engine if it made anywhere near that kind of stable/dependable power over a full tb/bs belt interval.
Carl Fawcett's (928 Motorsports)'s attempt with the fire breathing, 3.0 4 valve 968 Variocam was like, a 68 hp gain (and even then, the dyno queen numbers were fleeting).... the encouraging dyno numbers were followed by nearly endless problems during the next 3 years for the folks who purchased his early units. minimum gains saw hp gains that could be measured in minutes, but not (hours) before belt slippage or failure....
it wasn't until what basically amounts to a stage 3 kit was developed with a tooth drive belt system that they were able to hold more than 50 hp without cooking belts, but still never managed more than 4~4.5 pounds of boost... and all this after a significant development effort from a guy who'd been developing superchargers for the 928 for years.
and after all the drama, the belt life would be properly measured in hours.... unfortunately, once modest power gains were seen, a few of the Raptors imploded straight into the 3.0's intakes. BOOM.
SUPERCHARGERS SUCK. well, centrifugal units anyway... after one of these deals is
properly developed, try not to faint when you see how much your fuel mileage plummets.
if you insist on developing a supercharger for one of these engines,
stick with a Ford roots Supercoupe unit. like the one (V2 Rocket) runs.
Last edited by odurandina; 09-08-2013 at 10:31 PM.
09-08-2013, 10:01 PM
#25
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I was looking for 220 hp, I don't think it's that insane. I already make about 175, conservatively.
I'm probably forgetting a couple of other small things... cat delete, late headers... I think 175 is about right considering my build is fresh.
I have a lightened crank, 951 valvetrain parts (springs and cam grind), balance shafts deleted, and AC deleted. Manual steering of course.
09-08-2013, 10:10 PM
#26
My goals are far more modest. I'm hoping for 30 extra hp at the rear wheels. I don't see 175 RWHP as being too lofty.
Even If I saw 170 RWHP I'd be happy, seeing as the cars were rated at 143 stock, at the crank!
Find me another mod that for $750 all in(not incl. N/A tune) would net even 25 hp?
My car is a track car, it's been a work in progress for the last 3 years for me, no reason to not try this. I believe that with the MAF, the fuel delivery will be far more reliable and not having huge HP goals will net a fun, safe setup.
Even If I saw 170 RWHP I'd be happy, seeing as the cars were rated at 143 stock, at the crank!
Find me another mod that for $750 all in(not incl. N/A tune) would net even 25 hp?
My car is a track car, it's been a work in progress for the last 3 years for me, no reason to not try this. I believe that with the MAF, the fuel delivery will be far more reliable and not having huge HP goals will net a fun, safe setup.
09-08-2013, 10:58 PM
#27
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Is any of the 951 gear even needed then? My (misguided, I guess) suggestion to use 951 fuel injection gear was simply to allow ease of tuning while giving him a cheap source of plug and play oem injectors that will do the job and then some. Can the N/A AFM flow enough to support 250 hp? My thoughts are yes, but it would be getting fairly close to the flow limits. If so can either the late or early 944 DMEs control 951 injectors? Do you offer something akin to the A-tune for the n/a DME?
The 944NA AFM will not flow enough, or rather, meter enough air. The 951 AFM could be used, and will be sufficient for the OP's goals.
The late 944 DME is what I would use, unless you want to try to swap in a 951 wiring harness, DME & KLR. Considering the early 944NA does not put the DME in the same spot as the late, the easiest approach would be just to find a late 944NA DME & 951AFM (or MAF) and use it (with the correct software).
Yes, I could do something like the A-Tune for this type of supercharger setup. Though opting for MAF wouldn't add much cost, but would definitely make more power.
wait.
250 hp on an '83 with an Eaton supercharger?? seriously??
there's a very good reason very few production engines, let alone four cylinder production engines (historically) have come with supercharger options; there's a ton development that goes in..... but, sometimes you can cheat, and pull a production supercharger off one engine model and make it work for another engine.
250 hp on an '83 with an Eaton supercharger?? seriously??
there's a very good reason very few production engines, let alone four cylinder production engines (historically) have come with supercharger options; there's a ton development that goes in..... but, sometimes you can cheat, and pull a production supercharger off one engine model and make it work for another engine.
Lots of production cars came supercharged..
Audi A6
Mini
Many different Mercedes
T-Bird
GT500
Lightning
Cobra
Many different GMs (Bonneville, Park Ave, GTP, ect)
Colbalt
ZR1
CST-V
Many Jags
Nissans (Xterra/Frontier)
Tacoma
Scion
VW
on, and on.
The one common thing is the vast majority use roots (Eaton) superchargers.
09-08-2013, 11:11 PM
#28
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Josh,
I was mostly speaking about the '60~'80s cars w/ 2 valves/ cylinder.
otherwise, i'm totally floored. that's really bringing the whoopass to that sleepy car.
i've never envisioned being able to mate a roots to a 944 and get the fuel right and not overboost the engine before reaching the redline..... yet, still have enough boost in the mid-ranges to make it worth it.....
that's why i've always seen the turbos as being the only possibility for this engine.
I'll go to my room now.
I was mostly speaking about the '60~'80s cars w/ 2 valves/ cylinder.
otherwise, i'm totally floored. that's really bringing the whoopass to that sleepy car.
i've never envisioned being able to mate a roots to a 944 and get the fuel right and not overboost the engine before reaching the redline..... yet, still have enough boost in the mid-ranges to make it worth it.....
that's why i've always seen the turbos as being the only possibility for this engine.
I'll go to my room now.
09-08-2013, 11:14 PM
#29
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Od, I have to disagree on a few points there. Namely belt lifespan... there are plenty of 951s that are making 250+ at the crank and are fine. RPMs aren't changing in a significant way, and I'm not sure how normal driving with a couple psi would really put too big of a load on the timing system. Over time maybe the head, clutch, and transaxle would see stress/strain. If and when I ever get my ducks in a row and can finance this project, we'll be able to see
Rogue_Ant, thanks for all the info. I remember reading about NA Tune a while back and it looked pretty awesome.
Rogue_Ant, thanks for all the info. I remember reading about NA Tune a while back and it looked pretty awesome.
09-08-2013, 11:45 PM
#30
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951 injectors, if in good shape, are what I would use for a supercharged 944. Considering the early 944NA does not put the DME in the same spot as the late, the easiest approach would be just to find a late 944NA DME & 951AFM (or MAF) and use it (with the correct software).
N/A injectors are 2-3 ohms, 951 are 4-5 ohms. It would probably be ok then to use 951 injectors with an n/a DME? Same idea I guess as using 12 ohm injectors in a 951, just change the software. That brings the cost for this project down significantly!